...Sabbat guide???..

[maryshelly]

I am just writing this after I realized from another Post that Camarilla and Anarch guides are coming out. Can a Sabbat guide come out too? After all, I am sure that hunting Antedelluvians with friends would be lots of fun.

[CTPhipps]

I am just writing this after I realized from another Post that Camarilla and Anarch guides are coming out. Can a Sabbat guide come out too? After all, I am sure that hunting Antedelluvians with friends would be lots of fun.

I think that's been established as definitely coming.

[Vendrin]

Sometime in late 2019.

[Black Flag]

It’s coming, just later. I expect the Sabbat will be playable, but they’re not the default focus of this edition. In any case, I am looking forward to it. I especially want to see what roles they occupy now that they’re no longer cannibalizing the Anarchs’ function in the setting.

I just hope they go back to the drawing board for the Latin terms, as the ones from the past Sabbat books are not actual Latin and read as nonsense to those of us who actually understand the language. (I mention this every time the topic comes up, because it matters to me.)

[RadioFreeDeath]

I hope they do something more like Montreal by night. A splatterpunk psychopathic religious cult of zealots.

[CTPhipps]

I think the big thing they've done is they've moved all the various sects away from each other so there's not any intersection between them.

The Anarchs used to be part of the Camarilla

The Sabbat were ex-Anarchs

So, now the Anarchs are an organized movement which is all about FREEDOM but incorporates most of the hatred for the Camarilla as well as Elders the Sabbat used to have. They've also made the Church of Caine into a mainstream organization.

So the Sabbat as is, exists in the Anarchs now.

So, I suspect what the Sabbat will BECOME is a lot...darker.

[Black Flag]

Well, the Sabbat will have lost their central organization, along with their more moderate members. What’s left is probably a lot more like what it was in the early nights following the Convention of Thorns, which is the thing the Camarilla learned to fear, before they became just “that other sect.”

I think the real niche of the Sabbat is as a former Anarch movement that came out the other side convinced that personal freedom wasn’t all that important after all, since no Cainite would be truly free until the Ancients were all destroyed and the Jyhad broken. And the only way to do that is to devote oneself fully to the cult. And in doing so transcend the human.

The Sabbat religion was a mix of medieval Anarch thought, Cainite Heresy, and Tzimisce transhumanism, that after the crucible of the First Inquisition managed to produce something unlike its component parts. Something that is now self-sustaining. It’s arguably even more anachronistic than the Camarilla, but it’s looking forward to the apocalypse, so it doesn’t care. They also claim to represent vampirism in its purest and holiest form, free of human concerns. I expect that will always appeal to some.

[Red Eye]

I'd really like to see the Sabbat of V5 get back to being the Gehenna Cult that they were originally envisioned as.

Moving the Church of Caine into the mainstream is actually an important step in making that happen, because you need the religious viewpoint of the status quo to juxtapose the cult against.

Shrinking the Sect back down again to almost not being a Sect at all also stands to make this happen, as a cult is by definition a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

So, for some internal consistency they believe the whole Caine story, but they are fixated upon the end times and actively working to see that this doesn't come to pass and will go to whatever extremes they must for this. As part of all this, they believe that in order to put an end to the Antediluvians they must shed themselves of their mortal shortcomings which they achieve through strange rituals, alien convictions, and corrupted touchstones.

And they walk among us. They earn our trust. They engage in our communities. And they are right there whispering propaganda in our ears as they work subtly through social manipulation. The shock and awe tactics are both erratic, infrequent, and serve as more of a diversion to the powers that be. They are everywhere and nowhere all at the same time, and anyone really could be one of them.

This is why I'm glad to see the Lasombra joining the Camarilla and Anarchs, and to be honest I fully think the Tzimisce should as well. And I believe there should be members of both those Clans truly loyal to the Camarilla and Anarchs. They should be just like any other Clan, save for they are more likely to be suspect of being Sabbat as a result of the Anarch Revolt of old and how their Clans responded. But they should just be there in droves.

Just some musings.

[Darthpalpy]

I fully think the Tzimisce should as well

Because a Tzimisce metamorphosist will be well received in the Camarilla ? Or in the Anarch ? Doubtfull. They are many monsters in both, but nothing so alien (and potentially masquerade breaching), so I don't see it happening anytime soon. I think that the Tzimisce are in the Sabbat for the long haul, being what they are. The Old Clan, however, could be joining the Camarilla. If they're not all gone because of the Beckoning, of course ^^'

[Red Eye]

Because a Tzimisce metamorphosist will be well received in the Camarilla ? Or in the Anarch ? Doubtfull. They are many monsters in both, but nothing so alien (and potentially masquerade breaching), so I don't see it happening anytime soon. I think that the Tzimisce are in the Sabbat for the long haul, being what they are. The Old Clan, however, could be joining the Camarilla. If they're not all gone because of the Beckoning, of course ^^'

I don't think I quite agree with this. Of course, a limited view of what kind of end result a Tzimisce Metamorphosist might lead one to believe that, but I think it is a pretty limited view of what you might get. In fact, I would argue that in most cases those Tzimisce could still fit in without being a Masquerade breach. It doesn't always produce visually horrific monsters. Then you have the fact that not every Tzimisce is a Metamorphosist, sure a good many are, but there are those who walk different paths too.

I also didn't say they needed to be well received, I don't expect the Lasombra to be either. I think believing there is no place for either in the Camarilla betrays a wildly narrow view of either Clan though.

[Imthestein]

I've been looking forward to seeing what they do with the Sabbat. I think I read somewhere they would cover Tzimisce in that book but maybe I'm just assuming given it makes the most sense.

I'm not usually a Sabbat fan but given what I'm seeing in V5 I'm hoping they push the "we're relishing in being vampires" rather than the dark religious camarilla it has felt like to me.

[Illithid]

A Metamorphosist is all about becoming better, and would almost never copy another. You could have metamorphosist trying to be better by awakening their spiritual side with Sorcery, improving their mind, or control of the beast as their main focus.
They want to become something better than vampire, which is already better than human; but I think some of that can fit in the Camarilla.

[Black Flag]

I think the real question is, when did we start assuming all or even most of Clan Tzimisce were Metamorphosists? I can see that as a strain of their culture that fits particularly well within the Sabbat and not so much the other sects, but a lot of folks are a Tzimisce because a Tzimisce embraced them, and it stands to reason that not all of them were brainwashed by the Sabbat, and I expect even fewer are on board with the whole dark transhumanist thing.

It’s sort of a corollary to the main Tzimisce problem, which is that practically every characterization begins (and often ends) with Vicissitude.

[Red Eye]

I think the real question is, when did we start assuming all or even most of Clan Tzimisce were Metamorphosists? I can see that as a strain of their culture that fits particularly well within the Sabbat and not so much the other sects, but a lot of folks are a Tzimisce because a Tzimisce embraced them, and it stands to reason that not all of them were brainwashed by the Sabbat, and I expect even fewer are on board with the whole dark transhumanist thing.

It’s sort of a corollary to the main Tzimisce problem, which is that practically every characterization begins (and often ends) with Vicissitude.

This is exactly the reason that my write-up actually downplays that some, showing it to be nothing more than a branch of the greater Clan (despite being the part everyone seems focused on). Even the way Vicissitude is used doesn't need to be solely focused on the body horror freakshow variety. That just shows a lack of imagination and forward thinking, really.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

I agree with Black Flag and Red Eye. The books lean to heavily on the "freak show" quality of the Tzimisce, and that limits their play use. Other variations of them and Vicissitude should be possible.

But it will be interesting to see how Sabbat V5 handles them.