Celerity 5 (Lightinng Strike) V5

[Ulisses]

Current discussion.

Celerity 5 (Lighting Strike)

Player - believes that he can perform attack tests with automatic successes without attack rolls of his target.

Storyteller (myself) - I believe that lighting strike only cancels Dodge-based (Dexterity + Athletics) tests when the target is already engaged in melee combat or suffers a surprise attack.
From this strength I think that with two combatants fighting melee (Strength + Brawl test) where the Light Strike carrier has 6 hits and his opponent has 5 successes in allowing the Light Strike carrier to deal 6 damage (due to his accuracy with Light Strike).

However if the opponent (without Light Strike) has 6 hits in the melee attack and the possessor of Light Strike has 2 hits I allow the opponent (without Light Strike) to deal 4 damage.

The premise of Light Strike and speed not precision.
Am I right?

Or did the designers create a 100% efficient power that hits anything without testing their opponents?

[Murder-of-Crows]

The power emphathizes that the opponent is unable to defend or take evasive action. Defend would be a Strength + Melee or Strength + Brawl roll. Thus, the Lightning Strike is indeed bypassing any counter-attacks or defenses. It explicitly states that only Celerity 5 is able to cancel Lightning Strike. It's a level 5 power, costing a lot of XP. That should count for something, besides the obvious rules argument.

By the way, the attack still has a Difficulty 1. Thus, six successes "only" deal 5 damage.

[Ulisses]

The power emphathizes that the opponent is unable to defend or take evasive action. Defend would be a Strength + Melee or Strength + Brawl roll. Thus, the Lightning Strike is indeed bypassing any counter-attacks or defenses. It explicitly states that only Celerity 5 is able to cancel Lightning Strike. It's a level 5 power, costing a lot of XP. That should count for something, besides the obvious rules argument.

By the way, the attack still has a Difficulty 1. Thus, six successes "only" deal 5 damage.

I think not.
One thing and the target of Lightning Strike try to dodge an attack.
Another thing is the vampire with Lightning Strike and did not hit the target and his opponent hit him with more successes.

If you interpret this power literally you claim that it disables opponent's attack tests, which is not true, it does not override attack tests, it nullifies dodge tests.

The designer of this power and his description suffers from the same problem of Weight of the Feather (Protean 1), or you apply common sense or you have a broken power with the system.

[PMárk]

Or did the designers create a 100% efficient power that hits anything without testing their opponents?

Yup. I don't like the Celerity powers since the preview and this is one of the reasons. This power is literally one-shot-one-kill, making the opponent unable to defend at all, or it does nothing, if the opponent has it too.

Frankly, I have to say, while I like the idea of the physical disciplines are having multiple powers and more evocative ones, the execution of them is quite lacking, in my oppinion. Like Cel 2 doesn't add extra dice to anything, but dodge, Cel 1 making you always succeed, potence adding half to damage, etc. They are just not very well thought-out, again, in my oppinion.

If I were you, I'd rewrite half the powers, to make them sensible.

[Aleph]

I think that while the actions of doing and avoiding damage are solved in V5 with one roll, they're still distinct...phenomena...so to speak.

For instance, having more attack successes than your foe won't ALWAYS imply you don't suffer damage from their attack...as it's the case with the "total attack" rules in advanced rules. In that case the other party ignores your attack roll for purposes of defense, but you still get to cause damage if you roll higher than they

Celerity 5 it's supposed to make your attack ignore any defense...but, as far as I can see, it's not supposed to be a defense. It doesn't say you ignore attack rolls nor that you ignore enemy attacks if you activate this power. The power only states that the other party doesn't roll to defend and mentions nothing about it being a perfect defense.

My reading it's that in those cases you should still attack at difficulty 1, but you still need to get more successes than the enemy to avoid damage. The oponent has no defense (against that attack) almost as if he was making a "total attack" and you were attacking normaly (think that this can happen in conflicts between players)

[Murder-of-Crows]

My reading it's that in those cases you should still attack at difficulty 1, but you still need to get more successes than the enemy to avoid damage. The oponent has no defense (against that attack) almost as if he was making a "total attack" and you were attacking normaly (think that this can happen in conflicts between players)

I think your interpretation nails it.

[Illithid]

I was reading the power as letting you make an attack without defense (Just like shooting at someone that doesn't put a defense in to in.
Then the other person/target can make their normal attack, but since you've attacked already, your only option is defense without trying to deal damage back.

Yes it's damn powerful, but it's level 5 for the "Speed" discipline, in a system without multiple attacks. What else could they do?

[Wissenschaft]

I mean, Dominate level 5 can allow you to command someone to kill themselves. So I don't see how "lightning strike" is that much crazier.

[Monalfie]

It is hard for me to decide because it says the opponent 'is unable to defend or take evasive action' and 'the opponent makes no roll to dodge or defend.'It depends a counter-attack attempt is what they mean by defend. Obviously it doesn't mean dodge because it specifically notes they also cannot dodge. But what other kind of defending is there besides dodging and attacking back?

If both participants are able to cause harm to their opponent, the conflict is two-sided, with both sides counting as attackers. In this case, the actions of both parties are merged into a single conflict roll.

This muddies the water as well, if the defender is an attacker if he's trying to cause harm, then his attack isn't really a defense. Anyway, I agree with you mostly, Ulisses. The enemy can still make a counter attack in the conflict. Based on the idea that a simultaneous return attack probably isn't what it means by defending.

[11twiggins]

I mean, Dominate level 5 can allow you to command someone to kill themselves. So I don't see how "lightning strike" is that much crazier.

Wait... what? One of the huge things with Dominate has always been that "kill yourself" is off limits outside of Elder Powers, due to self-preservation. "You can't order someone to do something that they perceive as being lethal" is a big balancing factor pre V5. And now level 5 lets you force mortals to kill themselves? I mean as long as it's JUST mortals that's hardly overpowered, but it's still an odd thing to do IMO.

[Monalfie]

Wait... what? One of the huge things with Dominate has always been that "kill yourself" is off limits outside of Elder Powers, due to self-preservation. "You can't order someone to do something that they perceive as being lethal" is a big balancing factor pre V5. And now level 5 lets you force mortals to kill themselves? I mean as long as it's JUST mortals that's hardly overpowered, but it's still an odd thing to do IMO.

It also can influence Kindred.

Terminal Decree
No longer hampered by the self-preservation instincts of their victims, the vampire can now issue commands that directly lead to the harm or death of the victim. Mortals can be made to blow their brains out, jump from rooftops,or swallow poison. Vampires can, with a bit of effort, be made to walk into fire or sunlight.
Cost: No Additional Hunger cost, but the Humanity cost is potentially severe.
System: Terminal commands now must be resisted (see individual powers regarding rolls involved), rather than failing automatically.
Duration: Passive.

[11twiggins]

It also can influence Kindred.

That's not a good idea. The annoying thing about this is that it isn't a powerful ability in the sense that Celerity 5 in V20 is. Someone with 6 actions a turn might slaughter you. Or they might beat you up quite badly and burn through too much blood to remain a threat. Hard to say. Depends on the context, but it isn't a case of "you either get killed by Celerity 5 or you survive with no damage".

The annoying thing with some "social combat powers" in games is that they're pretty binary. They either make you throw yourself into a burning fire or... not do that because you resisted it. See what I mean?

[Monalfie]

That's not a good idea. The annoying thing about this is that it isn't a powerful ability in the sense that Celerity 5 in V20 is. Someone with 6 actions a turn might slaughter you. Or they might beat you up quite badly and burn through too much blood to remain a threat. Hard to say. Depends on the context, but it isn't a case of "you either get killed by Celerity 5 or you survive with no damage".

The annoying thing with some "social combat powers" in games is that they're pretty binary. They either make you throw yourself into a burning fire or... not do that because you resisted it. See what I mean?

Oh, I agree. I was just clarifying. Having it work on Kindred (think it also works on any supernaturals) seems a bad idea. Adding onto that, I don't think lower Generations even have innate resistance. Just that they can spend a Willpower to automatically resist. But if you're higher Generation and lose the roll, I think you're just screwed.

[shoulderofpallas]

I'm really baffled by this aversion to lethality...

[Tubect]

Terminal Commands sounds terrifying, but taking it involves giving up Mass Manipulation which is an inarguably more useful power. Terminal Commands means giving up the ability to use powers like mesmerize on hordes of people (say, to tell an entire SI team to handcuff each other and lie on the ground) for a glorified party trick.

As an ST, using Terminal Commands on another Vampire should be very difficult, and incur automatic stains. On a mortal it may as well be automatic, because it's simply not that useful.