*sigh* V5 Character Creation Question Advantages Flaws End Me

[Serpent Axis]

*heavy sigh*
Ok, I know I'm late to the "party" with V5 since I just now got it and I'm not gonna bring up the whole Sabbat thing, I'm not gonna go off the rails into a tirade about "Camarilla Mains" and "Cam-and-Anarch pandering devs" or anything crazy like that. I'm not gonna go into the "whose idea was it to make it so that Sabbat are linked to current real world monsters ISIS" thing or the other horrific current event exploitation.
I'm not gonna go into how I, as someone who lives in the Middle East, feel a little bit left behind in terms of the setting basically says my region is the Unplayable Unknown and the Clans that can represent—you know what, I'm not even going there. Fuck it.
Yeah, sure, delete Assamites as a base playable Clan. This is fine.
Completely remove the Sect I preferred to play as a base playable sect the way it was in previous editions, this is also fine. Camarilla Mains.

Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, I'm dropping this. I don't care. I prefer to play in settings far away as it is, so… Whatever. And yay to Camarilla-and-Anarch Only games. Yay. Not like 99% of games out there are already exactly that, right!??!?!?!?!?!

Fine, fine, fine, I stopped. I stopped.

Right now I'm just trying to go over the "new" system and trying to make heads or tails of this.

You have 7 dots to spend on Advantages: Merits/Backgrounds/Loresheets/Flaws. You spend Advantage dots on Flaws, which you are required to purchase from your own Merit dots.
So unlike previous Masquerade editions where "purchasing" Flaws is an optional thing that gives you more points to work with during character creation – here, you are forced to buy Flaws and you are paying for them with dots that could have gone into other things, leaving you with less points to work with.

Did I read this right!?

Also, when Predator and Loresheets say something like "gain x dots in x" or "spend x dots in x" do they mean they give me more dots to work with or do they mean "take x amount of dots from the 7 dots in Advantages we gave you and spend those"?

Finally, can someone please pinch me and tell me they didn't decide to introduce the insane and detached NWoD 1e Experience Costs and remove all ability to get bonus XP per session and reduced the amount of XP you get to 1 per session on top of that!?

………………………………End me.

[thebiglarpnerd]

Fort someone 'not bringing something up' you went on at great, rambling length about it.

Anyway.

For Advantages and Flaws, you're completely misreading the text.

PCs have 7 points to spend on Advantages. That's Merits, Backgrounds, and Loresheets.

PCs are required to take 2 points of Flaws. Those don't come out of your 7 points. You just pick flaws until you have 2 dots. That's either two 1 dot Flaws, or one 2 dot Flaw. Do note that you don't get additional dots back from Flaws on a character, only from Flaws taken for the Coterie during the coterie creation step.

Predator Types give you extra things for free. So the Alleycat Predator type gives you the appropriate specialty (or a dot in that Skill if you don't have it to take the Specialty, per the Skill rules), 3 dots of Contacts (Criminal), a dot of Potence or Celerity (your choice), and you lower your Humanity by 1.

For Loresheets, they're a special case. You buy them individually with Advantage Points or XP. So you would buy levels 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 separately and mark them as such on your sheet, and you don't have to buy all of them nor do you have to buy them in order. When a Loresheet says 'spend' it's giving you dots to put into the appropriate Background for free, not from your Advantage points. Let's use the Theo Bell Loresheet as an example. When it says 'you have 5 dots to spend among Contacts, Haven, Mawla and Retainers' that means, when you buy Level 5 of that Loresheet (whether with Advantage dots at chargen, or with XP down the line), you get 5 dots to divide among those Backgrounds. These come from the Loresheet, not from your Advantage points. Part of this reason is that Loresheets are a direct link to a some aspect of the metaplot or world, and so you have a story tie for those dots, which makes it easy for you as a player and for your ST to finagle that story. It costs the same in XP and Advantage dots either way, but it's more about how it ties to the story, and gives the ST some ground to work for your character's personal narrative.

As far as XP, so? The book posits how advancement should be based on what the core presents: a game about neonates and ancillae functioning in a modern world. The ST is well within their rights to give more XP per session, but the XP progression is different because the dot scaling is different, to an extent, as well. Like, most Level 5 Disciplines are old editions' elder powers.

[Serpent Axis]

PCs are required to take 2 points of Flaws. Those don't come out of your 7 points. You just pick flaws until you have 2 dots. That's either two 1 dot Flaws, or one 2 dot Flaw. Do note that you don't get additional dots back from Flaws on a character, only from Flaws taken for the Coterie during the coterie creation step.

I couldn't find any rule that says that in the book, but it does make more sense. Are you sure that's what the book says?
Ok, so basically if you wanted to get a certain Flaw or multiple Flaws beyond the required 2 dots, you don't have to pay anything for those but neither do you get any points back, right? So for example you can have Adversary 2 and then willingly take on Dark Secret 1 and the Ugly Flaw "for free", did I get that right?

Ok, this is much better.

Predator Types give you extra things for free. So the Alleycat Predator type gives you the appropriate specialty (or a dot in that Skill if you don't have it to take the Specialty, per the Skill rules), 3 dots of Contacts (Criminal), a dot of Potence or Celerity (your choice), and you lower your Humanity by 1.

Ok, so the interchangeable way they use "gain x dots in x" and "spend x dots in x" confused me, yeah. Thank you, this is much better.

For Loresheets, they're a special case. You buy them individually with Advantage Points or XP. So you would buy levels 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 separately and mark them as such on your sheet, and you don't have to buy all of them nor do you have to buy them in order.

Wait... are you saying you can buy specific levels individually, like buying level 2 without level 1? So if you wanted Low Clans 3 with all 3 levels it doesn't cost you 3 points total but 1 then another 2 and then another 3 like you're buying three separate traits at different costs? Wut. I thought those were more like the Discipline structure.

As far as XP, so? The book posits how advancement should be based on what the core presents: a game about neonates and ancillae functioning in a modern world. The ST is well within their rights to give more XP per session, but the XP progression is different because the dot scaling is different, to an extent, as well. Like, most Level 5 Disciplines are old editions' elder powers.

Which still means it'll take you five and a half months to raise a single out-of-Clan Discipline from level 2 to level 3, at a minimum (assuming you play once a week, the storyteller is using standard xp rewards and this is not including the 1 bonus XP at the end of a story, assuming at least one story will be finished in 5 months of weekly play and without generous bonus XP which is not mentioned in the new core book - but even if you do get that 1 extra XP, it still means 5 months).
This is 5 months in which you raise nothing else, as well.

[thebiglarpnerd]

I couldn't find any rule that says that in the book, but it does make more sense. Are you sure that's what the book says?
Ok, so basically if you wanted to get a certain Flaw or multiple Flaws beyond the required 2 dots, you don't have to pay anything for those but neither do you get any points back, right? So for example you can have Adversary 2 and then willingly take on Dark Secret 1 and the Ugly Flaw "for free", did I get that right?

The text for Flaws for PCs states that you don't get points back at all. The only place where it states you get points back to spend from Flaws is during Coterie creation. As it's explicitly only called out in the coterie section, it only applies to the coterie section. We also asked Karim Muammar about this, because a section of the fandom was confused by it, and he confirmed that you don't get personal points back from Flaws, just for Coterie stuff. By RAW, you're only required to have 2 points of Flaws, but if you want more and your ST is okay with it, it's fine. By by RAW, you only have to take 2 points. Karim talked about this a bit on Facebook, essentially 2 points of require flaws gives enough stuff for the ST to build into the game for the player, but more can become unmanageable from the ST's standpoint (especially with the old editions, which incentivized lots of Flaws, but often ended up with ignored flaws because it was just a lot for an ST to keep up with).

Wait... are you saying you can buy specific levels individually, like buying level 2 without level 1? So if you wanted Low Clans 3 with all 3 levels it doesn't cost you 3 points total but 1 then another 2 and then another 3 like you're buying three separate traits at different costs? Wut. I thought those were more like the Discipline structure.

It clarifies on pg. 190. Remember, that just like other Advantages, each level of a Loresheet is self-contained and must be bought separately. It does not automatically convey the “lower” levels of that Loresheet. So yes, for Loresheets, you can buy Level 2 for 2 Advantage points, or 6 XP, without buying level 1. You could buy Level 5 for 5 Advantage points, or 15 XP, without buying any previous levels. They build on each other to an extent, but they are exclusive. This doesn't really apply to the other Advantages, though, as they are just building upon each other, increasing effectiveness (like Resources or Contacts).

Also note that a PC can only have stuff from one Loresheet, per the 'a Loresheet' text on pg. 190 as well as a clarification by Karim Muammar.

Which still means it'll take you five and a half months to raise a single out-of-Clan Discipline from level 2 to level 3, at a minimum (assuming you play once a week, the storyteller is using standard xp rewards and this is not including the 1 bonus XP at the end of a story, assuming at least one story will be finished in 5 months of weekly play and without generous bonus XP which is not mentioned in the new core book - but even if you do get that 1 extra XP, it still means 5 months).
This is 5 months in which you raise nothing else, as well.

I don't know that I've ever seen an ST ever use the exact recommended experience rules from the book. Also, a story, by V5's definition, can be as short as a single session, depending on what the ST's narrative is. Story as a measure of narrative time is mentioned on pg. 117. Again, the book posits slow growth because of how the game is presented: low-powered, street-level, hard-scrabbling vampires, rather than 'I am the lord of the night, look at how many powers I can throw!' Personally, I give 2 XP per session on a once per week session, plus one for a story end, and my players have been fine; they have to make choices about what to build, and it's helped codify aspects of their characters. You're looking at it on the scale of prior versions where having tons of 4s and 5s was the norm; that's not the 'norm' for V5, even with big elders, anymore.

But as I said, if the ST wants to have a high powered game, that's within their right to give more XP, bonus XP, or anything in between. Also, if the ST is using the Sea of Time rules from creation, certain ages/generations of character will start with some extra XP (15 and 35 respectively, per pg. 137).

[Serpent Axis]

Thank you biglarpnerd. This is much more reasonable now.

[thebiglarpnerd]

Thank you biglarpnerd. This is much more reasonable now.

You're welcome. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

The book sadly suffers from a need for a second editing pass. I would recommend grabbing the rules errata if you're using the physical book rather than the PDF (the PDF incorporates the errata in the most recent update), and perhaps checking out the FAQ we've put together from Karim's clarifications on Facebook and on the FAQ itself, as well as page citations (since the book sections its rules, and doesn't repeat applicable rules in other sections, so you have to take it as a 'whole' product). The FAQ is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.shvvg0oc740n

[11twiggins]

Completely agree with your frustration in the first section. Can't offer any advice on the rest beyond "I guess V20 still exists?". I know that's a facile answer but it's all I've got as someone who still runs V20 and will for the foreseeable future.

[Murder-of-Crows]

I've upped XP awards to three per session. But I am not doing story awards anymore, as my games are not structured as "stories" more as interwoven arcs running simultaneously, overlapping, starting or finishing. 3 XP allows you to buy a specialty or a dot in an advantage immediately, or save up for some bigger expenditures. I used to run games for 5-10 years at a time, thus I can appreciate what they are trying to achieve with a slow growth. But the players like adding stuff to their sheets.

Personally, I think 1 XP per session would have been fine, if they went with VtR2's flat XP approach.

[Little_Miss_ Serneholt]

If you look at the PDF for the corebook, you can also choose to start a project in order to get more background dots/Merit Dots etc. It involves risk, but it is an in-game way to gain more backgrounds without spending xp.

[Tubect]

If you look at the PDF for the corebook, you can also choose to start a project in order to get more background dots/Merit Dots etc. It involves risk, but it is an in-game way to gain more backgrounds without spending xp.

Could you let me know where in the book this is found?

[thebiglarpnerd]

Could you let me know where in the book this is found?

It's in one of the appendices in the PDF, the Projects appendix. It was something that was supposed to be in another book, but was added to the PDF as well.

[Tubect]

I literally had no idea that was there, thank you so much!

[Murder-of-Crows]

The book has information all over the place. Just yesterday I discovered that I've been doing coterie creation wrong... I am getting to the point where I am thinking about doing a rules excerpt for the game like I did for requiem to cut out the noise and concentrate on the rules... But still, I like the game overall very much.

[CajunKhan]

*heavy sigh*
Ok, I know I'm late to the "party" with V5 since I just now got it and I'm not gonna bring up the whole Sabbat thing, I'm not gonna go off the rails into a tirade about "Camarilla Mains" and "Cam-and-Anarch pandering devs" or anything crazy like that. I'm not gonna go into the "whose idea was it to make it so that Sabbat are linked to current real world monsters ISIS" thing or the other horrific current event exploitation.
I'm not gonna go into how I, as someone who lives in the Middle East, feel a little bit left behind in terms of the setting basically says my region is the Unplayable Unknown and the Clans that can represent—you know what, I'm not even going there. Fuck it.
Yeah, sure, delete Assamites as a base playable Clan. This is fine.
Completely remove the Sect I preferred to play as a base playable sect the way it was in previous editions, this is also fine. Camarilla Mains.

Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, I'm dropping this. I don't care. I prefer to play in settings far away as it is, so… Whatever. And yay to Camarilla-and-Anarch Only games. Yay. Not like 99% of games out there are already exactly that, right!??!?!?!?!?!

I feel your pain, man. Speaking as someone who was always a bigger fan of Necroscope and Near Dark rather than Anne Rice, Sabbat games were always my thing. What they are doing with them this edition just sounds....wuuuuuuh???

[Murder-of-Crows]

What they are doing with them this edition just sounds....wuuuuuuh???

I think V5 needs to find its feet first, before starting to run. Remember V1 and V2 didn*t include Sabbat Clans in the core as well. Only when they started to figure out properly how paths and some other stuff was working mechanically, they started including it in core. Now, with V5 a couple of things regarding Humanity, Touchstones, and Paths of Enlightenment is not quite clear. Also the issue with getting 13 Clans right from the get go as opposed to only having to do 7 + Caitiff and Thin-bloods. Banu Haqim and The Ministry seemed to be easy enough to hint at them in the core, but Lasombra and Hecata are a bit more difficult to do then that. Tzimisce might end up easy, if Vicissitude gets rolled into Protean. But I hope Ravnos doesn*t require a new discipline.

Also, conceptually, the Sabbat is more of a stretch than either Anarchs and Camarilla. Both are much more relatable.