V5 Why not Better Dark Vision?

[Serpent Axis]

Unless I've missed something in the new rulebook, vampires still don't have better vision in the dark in V5 as a base natural thing.

When Requiem 2^nd Edition came out one of the changes they made was to give vampires a naturally better dark vision (and subsequently revamp Auspex etc).
I thought this was a really good change not just because all vampires share the night (and this is even more of a thing in Dark Ages settings), but because Nosferatu are a thing.

The first Vampire character I ever played was a Nosferatu so I always found it very puzzling how come there's an entire Clan that (at least in the Masquerade) specifically lairs in dark underground caverns and tunnels but has no natural access to either of the two Disciplines that lets a vampire see in or navigate better in the Nosferatu's "natural" haunts.

I'm wondering why the devs didn't carry the Req's improved senses change to V5.
I feel like Heightened Senses wouldn't be cheapened by it and Eyes of the Beast would still outclass it (complete darkvision plus the Intimidation bonus > "you can see a bit more in darker conditions or at least navigate it a little better").

[PazuzuAxelf]

The way I look at it there were only so many sacred cows they were willing to kill, and that was their mistake: not enough risks and changes. They did a half measure and it created a mediocre product. Requiem 2e was the right direction and is a superior game all around.

[Leandro16]

I AGREE all vampires should have dark vision build in their standard model becuase if not it´s like HOT NEWS:UNHOLY PREDATOR OF THE NIGHT CAN´T SEE BATSHIT IN THE DARKNESS #Darwinwaswrong

But this isnt the only change that vampires need heck the masquerade doesnt substain itself if the only 4-5 of thirteen clans have dominate

The KISS should have amnesic propierties against non-suipernatural mortals of low WP in similar way to the lunacy of werewolf ,that way a failure in a hunt is overfeeding , triying to feed from a mortal with high willpower or being caught by a witness.

Kindred face should also appear distorted in reflections and cameras as if the world were rejecting their nature, their bodies still show that way they can be caught in the act when doing ilegal things but identification of them is very difficult (Thermal cameras work very well and can be used to follow the vampire to his haven of Deo Prohibe the Elyseum).

[False Epiphany]

Unless I've missed something in the new rulebook, vampires still don't have better vision in the dark in V5 as a base natural thing.

When Requiem 2^nd Edition came out one of the changes they made was to give vampires a naturally better dark vision (and subsequently revamp Auspex etc).
I thought this was a really good change not just because all vampires share the night (and this is even more of a thing in Dark Ages settings), but because Nosferatu are a thing.

It was. There are are some iconic vampire powers that work better as Disciplines, and some that work better as innate abilities every vampire has free access to.

Seeing in the dark is one of them. The mental image of Nosferatu needing to use flashlights in their underground lairs is stupid.

[Tubect]

Living in the darkness of the tunnels full time would lead to even normal human eyes adjusting pretty quickly. Aside from that, they can just light the tunnels. The aesthetic of the sewer in Bloodlines, for example, wasn't diminished in any way by there being some dim lighting around. I don't think a warren being 100% pitch black serves much purpose to the Nosferatu either way.

I think that flattening out the power set too much can take away form the strategy a little. For instance, if a Gangrel is robbing a train full of Brujah, they might cut all the lighting to give themselves an advantage in the dark. If every vampire has automatic night vision, those strategies aren't really relevant. These kinds of differences and variations in powers add a lot of fun variation, for me.

It doesn't sound like a bad or broken house rule though! Heightened Senses can still provide superior vision, and Eyes Of The Beast still offers an intimidation bonus (maybe add a die or two if you're feeling charitable).

Bonus stupid question: is Eyes Of The Beast intended to provide darkvision based on infrared? If so, would it also protect against extreme lighting, such as having a spotlight shined directly in your face. If so, my heist crew is going to purchase a floodlight.

[Knowledgeseeker]

World of Darkness.

Vampires live in the dark. Just because they are monsters doesn't mean there aren't bigger, badder monsters out there for vampires to fear. Darkness is the tool for that to be true. There is still so much unknown. Being able to see in the dark makes them seem like masters of the night and by god they are not masters of the night. Vampires are powerful foes who are ACTIVE in the night, but just because they were cursed to burn by the sun doesn't mean god would give them a boon, too.

"Hey guys, sorry about making you burn in the sun for all that you did to deserve it, you little pieces of sh*t, but I'm a merciful god.You can see in the dark now because I feel bad."

Vampires venturing into dark houses creates mystery. It creates horror. Can you have a game of personal horror if there is no darkness?


Part of me wants to say quit whining and asking for more powers, but really... if you want to see in the darkness, turn on a god damn light. It's not the Dark Ages. Get it? 'God Damn' That's right, God Damned vampires to live in eternal darkness. It's not just metaphorical, it was literal. They are anathema to what goodness is. He wants them to suffer in the dark without the light of God/Day, without his blessing. Part of that suffering is... well... darkness. I hope my point was made. Or do you want Vampires to be able to eat food as well since blood is so inconvenient?

[Aleph]

Vampires venturing into dark houses creates mystery. It creates horror. Can you have a game of personal horror if there is no darkness?

W/O darkvision that would be more like Vampires stumbling clumsily into dark houses. Vampires with flashlights create horror?, I don't think so.

[Serpent Axis]

Just because they are monsters doesn't mean there aren't bigger, badder monsters out there for vampires to fear. Darkness is the tool for that to be true. There is still so much unknown

I agree with that sentiment, although the bigger, badder monsters that vampires should mostly fear are other vampires – older, more powerful vampires.
Different chronicles can have different focus themes and things they involve, but for the most part in Vampire: The Masquerade that should be the vampires' personal struggle with their detachment from humanity, slipping from their fingers like so much sand, and of course their intrigue and inner world mysteries (=internecine clan cold war and sectarian conflicts).
V5 is especially focused on vampire politics.

Being able to see in the dark makes them seem like masters of the night and by god they are not masters of the night.

So, there's two parts to this assertion that are problematic.
First, you link "being able to see in the dark better than a human" with total mastery of the universe. You're going to have to explain that leap to me.

I said that vampires – particularly Nosferatu – should be able to navigate in dark conditions better than normal humans who aren't forced to exist in literal darkness. Somehow you got from that to "they should be God".

Second, who are the masters of the night if vampires are not?
Actually, leave that. That's just a very weird sidetrack.

"Hey guys, sorry about making you burn in the sun for all that you did to deserve it, you little pieces of sh*t, but I'm a merciful god.You can see in the dark now because I feel bad."

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait…
Let's look at that logic for a second.

So… In your eyes: Immortality, immunity to all disease, borderline invulnerability, the ability to pass their curse onto random mortals who were not Caine and did not commit a sin that warrants cursing and actual fucking superpowers are all fine.
……No, you're right. Low Light Vision would have been too strong as a boon to a cursed race.
You're cool with vampires being able to develop Celerity 5, Fortitude 5 and Potence 5 but you draw the line at being able to see in the dark just a little better.

And apparently God's never heard of Protean or Auspex.

Part of me wants to say quit whining and asking for more powers

With respect, you've completely misunderstood the horror aspect of Vampire and you seem to be forgetting what vampires are – namely, vampires.
You know, they're… Like, nocturnal monsters and stuff. Undead, immortal monsters that haunt the night.

Yes, there are other monsters besides vampires who are also monsters. Vampire: The Masquerade isn't a game about vampires fearfully exploring a dark house and jumping at shadows as they flee the hidden monster within it.
They've already got a monster they need to be afraid of – it's the one inside them, the one they can become if they just give in. They don't need to be trapped in your spooky ghost house – they're eternally trapped with a monster already, the Beast Within.

but really... if you want to see in the darkness, turn on a god damn light.

Aleph and False Epiphany pretty much nailed the rebuttal to this exact sentence in the posts above mine.

It also runs completely counter to everything you've talked about.
You've repeatedly stressed that vampires are cursed to the darkness, divorced from the light – and here you want them using headlights to get around their habitat. Boi, you serious?

No, thematically that's so wrong. They should not be using The Light, The Light is their enemy.

Part of me wants to ask if in your games you disallow Auspex and Protean on the grounds that the night does not belong to the vampires, but really… if you want to run games about terrified protagonists quaking in a dark spooky house, just play human. Be afraid of all the shadows you want.

Go run Call of Cthulhu or just Chronicles of Darkness base game if that's your thing. Your players can fear all the monsters and darkness they want.

[GenerallyConfused]

True darkness that is impossible to see in is actually fairly rare outside of subterranean locations, the exeption being windowless rooms inside buildings.

Until pretty reacently, most buildings had window to most rooms possible to save on having to waste resourses lighting them. In almost all instances a single dot of auspex for hightened sences should be more than enough, if you want to go spelunking, take a torch or learn Gleam.

[Heavy Arms]

I'm pretty sure you can ask VtR 2e players if better innate night vision ruined horror in vampires for them... and they're not going to say it did.

Also one of the things that usually comes up with this?

Vampires existed long before electricity... back when fire was the only consistent way to have light at night. Fire is kinda... really bad for vampires to use as a tool. It's one of the problems. VtM 1e was written without any concerns with things like, "how did vampires in ancient times work?" that's stuff that got backfilled in. It was written just thinking about cities where everyone has electric lights, and sewers have power you can tap into, not thinking about what powers vampires have had for thousands of years. V5 had a chance to fix it, and it didn't.

[GenerallyConfused]

I'm pretty sure you can ask VtR 2e players if better innate night vision ruined horror in vampires for them... and they're not going to say it did.

Also one of the things that usually comes up with this?

Vampires existed long before electricity... back when fire was the only consistent way to have light at night. Fire is kinda... really bad for vampires to use as a tool. It's one of the problems. VtM 1e was written without any concerns with things like, "how did vampires in ancient times work?" that's stuff that got backfilled in. It was written just thinking about cities where everyone has electric lights, and sewers have power you can tap into, not thinking about what powers vampires have had for thousands of years. V5 had a chance to fix it, and it didn't.

Except, you know, moon light and starlight. Having fire is the best way to ruin your ability to see at night, not improve it

[Cifer]

Except, you know, moon light and starlight. Having fire is the best way to ruin your ability to see at night, not improve it

When was the last time you wrote a letter or read a book by starlight?

[GenerallyConfused]

When was the last time you wrote a letter or read a book by starlight?

Can't say i've tried that, would probably save that for a moonlit night.

On a serious note though, i was mostly talking about surviving. Books and letters are a luxury, if you have them, you passed the ability to have a well lit haven.

The mental image of a vampire sitting in a pitch dark room doing some light reading just seems silly.

[Heavy Arms]

The problem with the low-light even at night thing?

First, it's unreliable. Clouds, moonphases, etc. all make that not a great thing. It also doesn't work inside or underground..

Second, while human night vision is actually a lot better than modern electricity acclimated folks tend to assume, it's not like you adjust and you can see the same in the dark as you can in the light. To vastly oversimplify, we have prey eyes at night. Our eyes are actually pretty good at avoiding immediate danger even in low light. What we don't have is predatory night vision. And that's what vampires need. Not just to walk around in the dark without falling over everything, but to actually be able to hunt in the dark. The need to be able to identify good prey from bad. They need to be able to recognize territortial claims. Etc. All of that is stuff our human eyes suck at in low light situations.

Hence... most people find it better for the game to have vampires with greater night vision acuity without Disciplines.

[GenerallyConfused]

Kindred have enhanced senses as soon as they awaken from the embrace though, which i always took to mean a shift from "prey" to "predator" vision. If you want better than that, it's discipline time