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**False Epiphany** · 11-26-2019, 10:49 PM

Oh, these are fun.

Publishing Twilight under the W:TA label was a mistake, IMO. Hunters just haven't ever seemed that relevant to the Garou to me, or at least not nearly so much as they are to the Kindred.

**CTPhipps** · 11-26-2019, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post

Oh, these are fun.

Publishing Twilight under the W:TA label was a mistake, IMO. Hunters just haven't ever seemed that relevant to the Garou to me, or at least not nearly so much as they are to the Kindred.

What, it's not like 90% of them will just run screaming and forget they ever saw them.

;-)

There's a word for human hunters of werewolves: Pentex mercenaries and not all of them are human.

**CTPhipps** · 11-27-2019, 12:01 AM

Hunters Hunted (1992 - Preface) part 1

Before we get into PROJECT: TWILIGHT itself, I thought I'd take a moment to talk about its origins in the original Hunter's Hunted. Basically, that book was an attempt to give player options for hunting vampires while also making it very clear that they were woefully outmatched against even a Neonate Kindred but could take advantage of careful planning as well as several hunting groups in order to take out at least a few before they inevitably met their end.

One of the elements that HH introduced was the fact that the government had elements aware of the supernatural but not many. I was always fascinated by these write-ups and it would be a shame to not talk about them before I do my write up.

FBI: Special Affairs Divisions (SAD)

The Special Affairs Division in 1992 was a very different beast than it would eventually become. It has only five agents Agents, 3 laboratory workers, one administrator, and is under the control of a hold over from the fanatic J. Edgar Hoover COUNTERPOL days named George Ferris Thomasson. It was founded in the 1950s ostensibly to investigate UFOs but was actually designed to hunt vampires. In the 1930s, a FBI agent named Charles Horner was aiding Elliot Ness when he encountered a vampire in a speakeasy.

Al Capone wasn't Embraced until 1941 so this actually might be one of Modius crew or a predecessor to the Chicago Outfit. My headcanon unless proven otherwise is that it was Modius himself as bootlegging would be a good way to fund his war against Lodin. Also, he's the kind of vampire to screw up so epically. Alternatively: Blackjack. Charles Horner survived being drained almost to death and spent decades afterward building up his credibility and power to create the SAD.

George Ferris Thomasson was recruited into the SAD during the 60s, assuming they were going after the Reds. George was recruited by Horner personally and believed he was stable enough to handle the supernatural but is already a paranoid wreck who hates the way the Agency's focus has changed. This gets emphasized more in Project: Twilight but none of these guys is particularly liberal or of the softer side of law enforcement.

They are, however, remarkably well versed in the Kindred world with both Kindred Lore and Spirit Lore in addition to standard occult. The FBI believes the group is specifically designed to hunt serial killers now (back when that wasn't what they were most famous for) and they exist independently of the mainstream bureau. George has no proof of Lupines existing yet but has strong suspicions they do (it's just any time his agents get close, they forget).

There's a fun bit that in addition to using serial killers to hunt vampires, he also spies on: Communists, Socialists, Far Left Extremists, Feminists, Roleplaying Gamers (which is ridiculous since only ONE company is Satanic), and Politically Correct activists. This is, I suspect, a way to emphasize that Kindred should not feel too bad about killing these FBI agents as the assumption was a "fight the man" Anarch from its fans.

It's stated that the agents have been too successful in actually tracking down serial killers (due to the fact they're forging a lot of evidence but genuinely good at their job). The mainstream FBI wants to compare notes. Also, the biggest danger for the SAD isn't its experienced but outdatedly racist and misogynist agents but its technicians. They have several samples of Kindred blood they have studied at length and if they combined data with the CDC then the Masquerade would fall. I liked that bit there.

The Camarilla is said to be afraid of the SAD and have the not unjustified belief that if Kindred try to wipe it out then they could make things even worse. Instead, they've had Justicars run campaigns of misdirection against it. The Prince of Washington D.C. (not yet detailed as Marcus Vitel) wants Thomasson killed. Instead, we find out he does much worse to the man and results in something much-much worse happening.

Thoughts: The SAD in its current form was a somewhat limited use character. A smart ST wouldn't just send all of the agents at the PCs to be slaughtered but would have one of them coordinate with law enforcement and other FBI agents. I feel like the best thing about the SAD is that killing them is the worst idea you can do for them. Because if you kill one then they're going to investigate and who is the BEST people at investigating a crime scene and finding inconsistencies? Well, the FBI.

Still, it's small enough in its present form that it poses almost no actual threat to Kindred society. Most vampires with Dominate will be able to deal with them, though I'm of the mind that the agents should probably have abnormally high willpower like 7-9 because these guys (for all their anachronistic status as relics of the Hoover era) are still cultivated from the best of the best. They have SEEN shit.

It's not actually very good for Agent Mulder or Agent Cooper types because this group is designed clearly with the idea of the FBI being a place of conservative straight-laced WASPS. It's not inappropriate for the era as we see with Silence of the Lambs. It's just any females or nonconformists will find themselves decidedly unwelcome--which isn't necessarily a bad thing for PCs comfortable that way.

Really, you could argue the Kindred are right keeping the SAD open because in its diminished weak form, it's a layer of the Masquerade. These people can be watched and kept out of trouble. However, they know way more than I suspect the Kindred believe and their science is actually where the Masquerade could hit its biggest danger. I also like what happens in Project; Twilight where getting rid of Thompsson for his subordinate (A, if not LIBERAL man, then at least more open-minded) helps make it grow into a genuine threat to the Masquerade.

Recommended Reading/Viewing

* Agent Carter (season one)
* Silence of the Lambs (natch), Manhunter, Hannibal (series only)
* Mindhunters
* X-Files
* Twin Peaks

**CTPhipps** · 11-27-2019, 02:20 AM

Hunter's Hunted (1992) preface part 2

The next one up on our list is a group that has the most potential for inspiring Second Inquisition games, IMHO.

The National Security Agency (NSA)

This is the early 90s so the NSA was still a relatively unknown agency and my first introduction to its existence was here as well as the X-files. Of course, 9/11 and the War on Terror would expose the successor to the Black Chamber and decoding agency to the public eye. Also the existence of things like cellphones and wireless computers would give it nearly unlimited power.

Here, three agents of the NSA know about vampires and werewolves. Bruce Higgins, Felicity Price, and Maurice Edwards are three names who have been brought up multiple times in Vampire: The Masquerade but have never received an official write-up. Indeed, Felicity Price is a name you should all note because she's effectively the person who will bust the Masquerade wide-open. She's a Dominated agent of the NSA who eventually has her Dominus either Beckoned, killed, or disabled so that she regains control of her will. That triggers her bringing all of her information on the Kindred to her fellows then them cracking Schrek.net. I hope we get a full write-up of her in the upcoming Second Inquisition sourcebook.

Higgins and Price figured it out due to the sheer amount of information at their access. They were investigating a criminal conspiracy that turned out to be the Camarilla and, thankfully, were both fans of the occult beforehand. The two proceeded to then wage war against the supernatural in a much more dangerous but perhaps effective manner than the SAD. Targeting the city of Baltimore, they arranged for two Elders to fight each other to the death and managed to get one killed as well as the other knocked into torpor. Their second effort failed miserably and triggered a massive gang war across Baltimore that got a bunch of innocents killed. Their third attempt was attempting to create a war between the Sabbat and Camarilla. This apparently got dozens of vampires killed but also exposed them.

The result was that Bruce Higgens got himself turned into a ghoul by the Sabbat while Felicity Price, as mentioned above, was dominated by the Camarilla. The two have since begun gathering information for their respective masters and keeping the NSA out of vampire business. Unfortunately, Maurice Edwards figured out what both are doing and that they have since been compromised. He's not sure what to do now (he's also a compulsive gambler with heavy debts).

The NSA has vast power to manipulate the World of Darkness and potentially destroy the Masquerade. It is also a group that can theoretically destroy the finances of Kindred or turn the government against them. It's presently compromised but the above three agents are right now the only people who have any idea. Project: Twilight will show the NSA infiltration is much-much deeper than these three, though, with the Technocracy having a big chunk of it as well.

It will also play, as we know, a massive role in the SI. Here, it shows the Camarilla and Sabbat did a half-ass job securing it to begin with.

Review: The NSA is really one of my favorite groups to use in the World of Darkness. The real life conspiracies it's been involved in make it a perfect organization for Technocracy games and also a great basis for Hunter games. They can't operate on US soil operationally and indeed have no operations but in a place like the WOD, that's never going to stop them.

I also like that they are doing the exact same thing I have Camarilla Elders do to each other to the Camarilla. In my games, a Camarilla Elder has failed if he shows up to kill someone in person. They are people who should function like the Illuminati and Koch Brothers (or BOTH) by working through intermediaries and catspaws. In a werewolf vs. vampire fight, the werewolf wins if it finds the vampire. The vampire wins if a Kinfolk is Dominated to invite the pack for dinner before a gas line underneath the house explodes. They function in entirely different worlds.

The big difference is the NSA has greater technology than any Kindred and as good as the Nosferatu are, all of the Nosferatu are going to be trailing behind technology wise. Kindred just aren't very adaptable.

**No One of Consequence** · 11-27-2019, 04:51 AM

The idea behind PT, along with Inquisition and Arcanum, was that while they were developed by the line developers and part of their release schedule, they were only "kinda" part of that line, essentially being WoD books just without the branding.

Regarding recommended media, I recommend Thomas Harris's novels Red Dragon and Silence of the Lambs, as they go into a lot of personal details about Graham and Starling, two radically different types of agents that could easily be part of SAD, which aren't really covered in the films. Additionally, 1986's Manhunter and 2002's Red Dragon make a really interesting compare and contrast of two very different films taken from the same source material.

Also, the tv series Criminal Minds was pretty good, as is Fringe and the BBC miniseries Ultraviolet. And while more Werewolf related, the 1992 film Thunderheart is worth watching too.

And, RPG wise, the original Delta Green book from Pagan Publishing is one of the single best sourcebooks about the "feds investigating weird stuff" genre from that period. It also includes a rundown of every single US federal investigative and law enforcement agency at the time. (Its followup DG Countdown included similar material on international agencies.) And Hunter the Vigil's WoD Slashers has a number of interesting ideas.

**Justycar** · 11-27-2019, 06:09 AM

I found Project Twilight a very interesting source book when it was published and also Halls of the Arcanum. Last couple of years I was inspired by them to write and play an history based on Victorian ages Vampires that began with an Arcanum investigation. The Second Inquisition chapter of V5 Camarilla is also plenty of references to both of them.

**Reasor** · 11-27-2019, 08:29 PM

As someone who never collected many Werewolf books, I’m grateful that this thread exists and looking forward to seeing where it goes. It looks like some significant gaps in my knowledge of World of Darkness history are going to get filled in.

**No One of Consequence** · 11-27-2019, 08:42 PM

Regarding the Victorian era, I'm reminded of a group called the Skeleton Keys, first introduced in Mage's Guide to the Technocracy and tied in to the history of the NWO. If you ignore or just down play all of the Mage related bits, they make for an excellent Victorian London counterpart to the SAD and other twilight agencies. They also transfer pretty well to other places (say turn of the century NYC in the vein of Caleb Carr's The Alienist).

**CTPhipps** · 11-27-2019, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

Regarding the Victorian era, I'm reminded of a group called the Skeleton Keys, first introduced in Mage's Guide to the Technocracy and tied in to the history of the NWO. If you ignore or just down play all of the Mage related bits, they make for an excellent Victorian London counterpart to the SAD and other twilight agencies. They also transfer pretty well to other places (say turn of the century NYC in the vein of Caleb Carr's The Alienist).

There's a lot of overlap between Project: Twilight and the Technocracy if you want to use the two materials. One of the things that I've always made clear in my Technocracy games (I've done like five) is that they are the WoD "Deep State" since such things aren't just right wing racist and 4chan theories here.

A lot of their power comes from their ability to leach off the NSA, CIA, FBI, and police databases of the world. The NWO doesn't data-crunch everything and have thousands of boots on the ground, the US government does but their ability to access all of the US governments files with their coincidental magic means that the Technocracy appears a lot stronger than it really is. To an extent, this is something I'd undoubtedly emphaisze with the Second Inquisition albeit to a lesser extent. They're basically Taskforce: Valkyrie rather than the Technocracy. They don't have access to magic (albeit much of it) but they do have virtually the entirety of the US governments records at their disposal as well as a complete willingness to break the law.

That gives them a lot of reach that other vampires can only dream of as they can monitor, make arrests, kidnap, and more without reprocussions. It's amazing how much a badge, bureaucracy, and the appearance of authority can make up for lack of supernatural power.

Really, what they are is a baby Technocracy in a large way with all the competing factions and parties you're likely to find in it. If you have the Technocracy destroyed by the Avatar Storm or by Threat Null in your World of Darkness then it makes double sense because the Union's unconscious shaping of spy culture and government means that it was always going to fill the vacuum of their absence.

But yes, a good game of mine is that the Union moniters NSA, CIA, and FBI agents "in the know" for any signs of Awakening or unusual competence and is likely to recruit them as Consors or Acolytes. In my games, the Union has dozens of "tiny conspiracies" that are aware of the supernatural and think they're dealing with it on behalf of the government. The fact the Union is NOT the US government doesn't really mean much as they will either eventually Awaken and get brought into the real Technocracy or continue monitoring "subversive psychics, non-Christians and witches" for their Union masters.

**CTPhipps** · 11-27-2019, 10:55 PM

Hunter's Hunted Preface (CDC) part 3

This is the last part of the Preface before I get into the actual Project: Twilight book. Neither of these plays a role in the book buy I thought I'd share some thoughts as they would potentially play into the Second Inquisition as well as these books.

Center for Disease Control (CDC)

The Center for Disease Control gets a write-up in the Hunter's Hunted despite the fact that they have no actual knowledge of vampirism. What they do have is the vampire AIDS hysteria plot that is something of an unfortunate relic of 1st Edition. HIV and AIDs were less understood then and still devastating in their results due to the 1980s handling of it. Vampires spreading AIDs with their feeding was a plot I suspected someone clearly thought was a good and topical story hook but is actually pretty tasteless. This is why I believe that the CDC was never followed up on in subsequent games.

Basically, here, the CDC is investigating a lot of unexplained outbreaks of AIDs (not HIV) among people across the country that they believe is the result of an airborn version of the disease but is actually just vampires who are sloppy eaters. This is another thing that was more or less a product of 1st Edition as what vampires could and could not catch from diseased vessels was more ambiguous.

House Rules for disease: In my games, vampires cannot catch any diseases from blood because they're dead. However, it should be noted that blood remains in the mouth and provides the lubrication for the mouth so feeding twice per night can result in spreading any diseases vessels have. This amusingly can be resolved with something all vampires interested in the health of their herds should indulge in with common mouthwash between feedings or high-alcoholic drinks.

It is a 4point flaw called "Plaguebearer" that some Kindred do not kill the blood diseases in the blood that they feed from so that their vampire blood becomes full of flu, AIDS, hepatitis, and other diseases. Indeed, super versions of this that are effectively ghouled. Kindred as a general rule kill all Plaguebearers in their domain because they're that much of a danger. Most Kindred are able to make a Perception + Awareness check during feeding to determine if someone has disease in their blood.

Review: The Center for Disease Control is potentially very useful in a Project: Twilight or Second Inquisition game because they're people who can justifiably take large samples of blood from the populace. They can use this to narrow down Thin Bloods, ghouls, and potentially vessels. While most vampires won't submit to having blood samples taken, they presumably can be examined for such via DNA testing too. The CIA notably used a mass vaccination NGO to collect DNA data in order to find a terrorist and you could easily fake "super-flu" to do the same in a large city.

We also saw the CDC hanging around Los Angeles in Bloodlines, investigating Brother Vick's cult to Satan. Basically, this is a group that could be very useful and a potential massive weapon by the Second Inquisition depending on how you want to do it. You could also make it a Kindred weapon by creating a disease that masks vampire-like symptoms to help strengthen the Masquerade.

Which is actually canon in V:TM: https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Schere%27s_Disease

**CTPhipps** · 11-27-2019, 10:57 PM

Hunters Hunted Preface (Inqusition) part 4

The last or our entries here as a preface to the events of Project: Twilight. I'm not going to discuss the Arcanum because while I like the Talamasca/Watchers stand in, I never read the Arcanum book and don't know how they'd relate to the Second Inquisition.

Society of Leopold

This is more an acknowledgement than a write-up but the Society of Leopold got its first write-up in the Hunters Hunted as an interesting mixture of "dangerous but irrelevant to day-to-day Kindred life." The Society of Leopold is the world's greatest collection of vampire hunters but they're too few in number and too spread out in their activities to actually pose a threat to any single group of supernaturals let alone all of them.

The Society of Leopold isn't just fighting vampires (though they are about their most commonly encountered foe) but fighting all supernaturals in the World of Darkness. They even have about a dozen literal miniature societies devoted to this. This gets fleshed out more in the INQUISITION sourcebook but they're hunting vampires, werewolves, witches, ghosts, Infernalists, and actual demons-demons.

As a result, vampires dismiss the Society of Leopold's threat because only a handful of vampires get killed every year by them. So the vampires think they're ineffective. The thing is, if the Society of Leopold ever concentrated its efforts on vampires then the results would be far more noticeable and damning--which is exactly what happened with the Society joining up with the Second Inquisition. The Society is now focused on the undead and the rest of the SI is aiding them in it so it's now a hammer on the entire Kindred race.

Arguably, it may actually be the Society that makes this worse for everyone as they DO know about other supernaturals (even more so than the SAD) but there's a bit of a humorous conflict between the technicians and Inquisitors. It isn't canon but this is how I presently see the Society of Leopold trying to instruct Project: Firstlight in the nature of the World of Darkness.

Sullivan Dane: Yes, werewolves exist. So do ghosts, mages, fairies, and demons.

Scientist: Right and all of these species are presumably a different kind of Blankbody, correct?

Sullivan Dane: No. They may all come from Hell but they're very different species.

Scientist: Ah, but it says here Agent Jones encountered a vampire who turned into a wolf. Which opens questions about Conservation of Mass and might just be a halluciination. So, clearly your werewolves are just a kind of "vampire."

Sullivan Dane: You are an idiot.

Scientist: Seriously, Inquisitor, what is more likely? That there's dozens of competing individual supernatural races or one single one that has escaped our notice?

The original Inquisition has access to artifacts and holy places that dramatically increase their ability to draw on True Faith. Maybe only a handful of Inquisitors have it but with the holy relics in hand they can go up from 1 to 5 or 6 and even 7. The Society of Leopold also knows how to cultivate true faith with its austere lifestyle, "proof" of God, and sense of holy purpose. Only 1/3rd to 1/5th of Society Inquisitors (note: boots on the ground) have True Faith but that's enough.

The irony that Dominate, Presence, and possibly even the Blood Bond can just be "blessed" away with a handwave every week is an outside context problem for many Kindred who don't believe or at least assume it's not a real power. That also includes Theurgy which while not as possible as Celestial Choir True Magic (but may hide a few of their ranks in the Inquisitions ranks) is enough to dispel typical Kindred disciplines while not being imbeded by True Faith.

Review: The Inquisition has no ties to the government as such and probably wouldn't go well with the SAD of this era that is the kind to think Kennedy was a questionable president due to his Catholicism. The NSA may believe in ghosts and the paranormal but, ironically, is less likely to believe in God. The big thing is the Society of Leopold knows EVERYTHING. They know Clans, Caine, Lilith, the Book of Nod, the Shadowlands (which I assume they think is hell--and technically is), and probably things like Tribes as well as more demonology than you can shake a stick at. Its just they don't CARE about the scholarly aspect of things for the most part since they're only really interested in how to kill vampires and other monsters. Their hooking up with the government is a nightmare scenario for Kindred because the Society of Leopold's biggest danger isn't being killed by Kindred (it's a day-1 lesson not to engage with them one-on-one) but the police arresting you for having a trunk full of explosives or serial arson.

The armaments and lack of accountability provided to the Society of Leopold as well as access to fresh bodies on the ground is their biggest gain really. ISIS can recruit freely on the internet but now the Society of Leopold has access to government databases full of hardcore Catholic trained soldiers looking work. You don't need to convince them to join when the SI has a bunch of vampires to show them in Notanamo Bay.

NEXT UP - PROJECT: TWILIGHT (at last)

**CTPhipps** · 11-27-2019, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by Reasor View Post

As someone who never collected many Werewolf books, I’m grateful that this thread exists and looking forward to seeing where it goes. It looks like some significant gaps in my knowledge of World of Darkness history are going to get filled in.

I hope you enjoy!

Originally posted by Justycar View Post

I found Project Twilight a very interesting source book when it was published and also Halls of the Arcanum. Last couple of years I was inspired by them to write and play an history based on Victorian ages Vampires that began with an Arcanum investigation. The Second Inquisition chapter of V5 Camarilla is also plenty of references to both of them.

Sadly, I never got to read Halls of the Arcanum. I always want to use them but I can never figure out what to use them for.

**No One of Consequence** · 11-27-2019, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

There's a lot of overlap between Project: Twilight and the Technocracy if you want to use the two materials. One of the things that I've always made clear in my Technocracy games (I've done like five) is that they are the WoD "Deep State" since such things aren't just right wing racist and 4chan theories here.

That was last month. This month it's "the deep state is real and is here to protect you". At least that's what is being said by the New York Times. (No word yet if we are at war with Eurasia or Eastasia.) Seriously, technocratism - governance by self styled experts, usually unanswerable to anyone outside of an elite minority - is a real thing, and a cornerstone of 20th century statism and the perpetual (and self-perpetuating) bureaucracy that goes with it. There's a reason Neil Postman's Technopoly and Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent get mentioned so often in Mage books about the Technocracy.

**CTPhipps** · 11-27-2019, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

That was last month. This month it's "the deep state is real and is here to protect you". At least that's what is being said by the New York Times. (No word yet if we are at war with Eurasia or Eastasia.) Seriously, technocratism - governance by self styled experts, usually unanswerable to anyone outside of an elite minority - is a real thing, and a cornerstone of 20th century statism and the perpetual (and self-perpetuating) bureaucracy that goes with it. There's a reason Neil Postman's Technopoly and Noam Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent get mentioned so often in Mage books about the Technocracy.

In my book THE RULES OF SUPERVILLAINY, a character talks to Gary Karkofsky a.k.a Merciless. "You're a weird conspiracy theorist, Gary. What's next Lizard Men?"

"No, no, I'm a Left Wing conspiracy theorist. I believe in corporations covering up malfeseance, government cover-ups of works against minorities, and the NSA watching us. The Lizard People and truthers are the Right Wing."

That got me some hate mail.

Mind you, we do live in a time with secret prisons, massive Orwellian observation, and corporate-megachurch-political alliances. Conspiracy is both the order of the day and ridiculous.

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[WIR] Project: Twilight - A Werewolf book now very useful for vampires

[WIR] Project: Twilight - A Werewolf book now very useful for vampires

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