[V5] The Sabbat in V5

[Banu_Saulot]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRP...5_sabbat_work/

These are some good rules for using the book in a player contexr.

Nice suggestions. The way I homebrew Paths throughout this year, culminating with some tweaks from the Sabbat book is something not too much removed, but a bit more complex and personal.
First you look if your Path type is Vampiric or Inhumane, the names might no be perfect, but the first one are Paths that don't strain too far away from Humanity, and the second one does. Bring down your Humanity till the max level (3 if Inhumane, 5 if Vampiric), and then with a Mawla you can start buying levels in the Path (you can only have one of course). Thing is, you start converting Humanity points from the 2nd slot forward (to the right), always maintaining the 1st level of Humanity. Each pair of Path levels gives you a Conviction from that Path (each one has a list of 5); Paths don't have Touchstones, they have either have Taboos or Sanctity, which acts as the equivalent to Touchstones, but more like objects, or types of people... that you get Stains for doing things against it as the corebook has tables for. Yeah, this Taboos/Sanctities thing isn't that good, and it isn't really a great substitute for the Touchstone but for the moment is what I have.
This makes the definition of the 5 Convictions each Path has, and their Taboo or Sanctity very important to define at your own Path catalog.
In the end Vampiric Paths work pretty much like Humanity, with its Convictions either mitigating or causing Stains depending of your action, and mechanically it gives the same benefits in the end. Inhumane Paths only count for the natural benefits of Humanity the levels you actually have as such, that will be miniscule, and when you start getting levels on the Path will remain 1. But, the more Path you have, the less you suffer from being terrible at dealing with humans (Humanity 1 is a -8), but even if you have 8 levels in the Path, you still suffer -4, which is significant, but you have more control than someone on the Path that has not many levels in it. Also, Inhumane Paths don't suffer much from the universal Stains.

That is kind of it. And I don't know how my players will like this organic system (which I gave a summary, if you can believe it), but the more problematic is defining the details of each Path, because you got to make each Conviction matter and represent it.

[CTPhipps]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WhiteWolfRPG/comments/py19gn/v5_discussion_of_tweaks_for_making_v5_sabbat_work/

These are some good rules for using the book in a player contexr.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Decanonized the week of nightmares, or make it a -if you wanna run a Gehenna scenario, this is a Prelude sample, but if you don't wanna run Gehenna, ignore it.

As someone who really, really likes Ravnos, the destruction of their clan is toxic bullshit.

[monteparnas]

I've always run it that there were such high levels of Chimerstry being thrown around in that event that nobody has any real clue what was going on.
A bunch of spirit nukes went off and all the world saw was a typhoon? Seems pretty plausible, especially given BJD has mystically appearing cities in it if I remember rightly.
I still lean into the story that an antideluvian awoke, devoured most of their bloodline (or got them to kill themselves) and then went back to sleep. Pretty much exactly how Gehenna is supposed to go.

Problem here is, again, that we have a detailed account of what happened. So no, the official account isn't plausible.

Chimerstry was used to create monsters, period. The typhoon was ridiculously big by itself. The nukes were clearly defined as neutron bombs, they had a spiritual effect, they weren't spiritual in the sense of existing in the Umbra, they were pretty much physical nukes. And 1.3 million people dying on a typhoon isn't something the entire world just brushes off, it may be something a typical US citizen brushes off (it was far from the US), but US opinion shouldn't be the only that counts for the Technocracy.

[Brickman]

I've always run it that there were such high levels of Chimerstry being thrown around in that event that nobody has any real clue what was going on.
A bunch of spirit nukes went off and all the world saw was a typhoon? Seems pretty plausible, especially given BJD has mystically appearing cities in it if I remember rightly.
I still lean into the story that an antideluvian awoke, devoured most of their bloodline (or got them to kill themselves) and then went back to sleep. Pretty much exactly how Gehenna is supposed to go.

[monteparnas]

If they had done it, and had the Masquerade implode, the Ascension War go public etc, as the world has a demonstration of what lives among them, that would have been one thing, and probably the best way it could have been dealt with.

Not to say that I think a better conceived Week of Nightmares couldn't be more subtle without ceasing to be awesomely packed with action and special effects, but not only due to it I fully expected when V5 was announced a game set in a post-veil world where the Masquerade as a whole doesn't exists anymore (which doesn't mean that the Tradition couldn't exist as a protection for individuals and groups instead of the whole species. People knowing vampires exist don't mean knowing you're one of them).

[Taggie]

I must say that despite all the stupidity involved, as an action flick it was extremely entertaining and yes, that was the kind of thing we needed at the time if it is to push the start on Gehenna. As a concept it was the right idea, and the execution was outright good. It is something that needs tweaking, not complete removal and to be forgotten, as none of the stupid problems are inherent to its intention.

If they had done it, and had the Masquerade implode, the Ascension War go public etc, as the world has a demonstration of what lives among them, that would have been one thing, and probably the best way it could have been dealt with.

[monteparnas]

I guess, they were trying to show multiple things: Antedeluvians are world ending threat, that can wassail, and that the Technocracy is terrifying...what they made was a mess, but I think that was the idea.

I must say that despite all the stupidity involved, as an action flick it was extremely entertaining and yes, that was the kind of thing we needed at the time if it is to push the start on Gehenna. As a concept it was the right idea, and the execution was outright good. It is something that needs tweaking, not complete removal and to be forgotten, as none of the stupid problems are inherent to its intention.

[Banu_Saulot]

I really loved the idea of the cyclical Gehennas of BJD, especially about the rethickening of the blood by the awakening ancients and devouring back the blood of the generations. To me, the power of Antes is not Phenomenal Cosmic Powers capable of destroying continents, but the ability to command their children to do their bidding, as well as sometimes just breaking rules by dividing themselves as Cappadocius, Tzimisce, Lasombra and Malkavian did some way or another (Saulot too I guess).

And well, although it has no proof, and it isn't something I would define as fact, but I think my hypothesis that when a vampire just ups and dies, without having its blood drunk, their potency might just disperse into every vampire of their bloodline (like worldwide bluetooth blood potency dispersal), and in the case of thinbloods and caitiffs it is for every vampire on Earth. Of course this wouldn't make a difference, especially not mechanically, but it is what happens when a vampire isn't diablerised (where his/her power is taken all by one single vamp). This is some way also gives point to the whole killing of thinbloods rousing the Ancients, the more they kill each other, the more the Ancients get powerful without doing nothing. But just an idea lol

But I do like the idea that Ravanna is really dead. Even if like... as akin to Cappadocius, his physical form is destroyed, but maybe his psychic or "illusion" form (if there is such a thing) still exists, and it is much more tranquil. This is, if we (each Storyteller and Player) want Ravanna alive in our table, and if his significance is that much. Maybe he was just a Methuselah going nuts, if we diminished the scale of the Week of Nightmares, maybe even more than one Methuselah. Anyway, I guess this all is why V5 doesn't touch much on the facts of events, just the outcomes XD

[Taggie]

I think you also miss monteparnas that the big issue is not necessarily (at least for tabletop gaming) that it was a death of millions but the fact that it was so overtly STUPID an event. The Ravnos Antediluvian woke up and started throwing around magic indiscriminately like Godzilla stomping Tokyo. It was mindless and according to Beckett's jyhad diary, a Wight possibly. If the Amtediluvians are real in your or my campaign, I assume they're going to be vast intelligences akin to Q and people who have been shaping the course of human destiny for the past 10,000 years like Menele and Helena x 10.

Not acting like mindless Orks or soccer hooligans.

So, it's really a question of what they hoped to accomplish by having an Antediluvian do this unless they wanted to suggest that they were going to stand still long enough to nuke.

I guess, they were trying to show multiple things: Antedeluvians are world ending threat, that can wassail, and that the Technocracy is terrifying...what they made was a mess, but I think that was the idea.

[CTPhipps]

Good point.

Hell, it's not even a very big win for the Technocracy as they killed an Antediluvian with an Intelligence of 0.

[monteparnas]

Good point.

[CTPhipps]

I think you also miss monteparnas that the big issue is not necessarily (at least for tabletop gaming) that it was a death of millions but the fact that it was so overtly STUPID an event. The Ravnos Antediluvian woke up and started throwing around magic indiscriminately like Godzilla stomping Tokyo. It was mindless and according to Beckett's jyhad diary, a Wight possibly. If the Amtediluvians are real in your or my campaign, I assume they're going to be vast intelligences akin to Q and people who have been shaping the course of human destiny for the past 10,000 years like Menele and Helena x 10.

Not acting like mindless Orks or soccer hooligans.

So, it's really a question of what they hoped to accomplish by having an Antediluvian do this unless they wanted to suggest that they were going to stand still long enough to nuke.

[monteparnas]

That is how I would rationalize it, but I guess we will have to wait and see the coming book of V5 about SI to know if they will touch in the Week of Nightmares again or not.

My own take on the Week of Nightmares would depend on my plans for Gehenna:

Go Big and Buy Time: kind of what they wanted for it, something unmistakable for whomever learned about it, but subtle enough just to not put the entire world on alarm for the next years. It would have to be somewhere uninhabited and on a somewhat lesser scale. Nothing undoable, Purbasha and Chhera islands fitted this description perfectly in Bangladesh and Purbasha had the added benefit of mystery as it appeared "out of nothingness" in 1970 due to a typhoon, is a disputed area on a geopolitical level (oil and mineral deposits) and is completely unstable anyways (so much so that it in fact disappeared in 2010).

Reduce the scope a little, have a little more cooperation between the supernaturals on field, do not kill every Bodhisattva present (that'll only make the Ancients too obviously unkillable), add the Union worrying because it will be impossible to cover until they realize the "allied forces" are taking the beast to a deserted island, and for goodness' sake add native characters (preferably created by native players if at all possible). Oh, and eliminate the ridiculous notion of every mental health patient in the world going through the same sudden hallucinatory crisis at the same time. That's insensitive with them and with the competence of mental health professionals alike.

The next years are a build-up for Gehenna and the involved in the "Bengal Incident" know the secret won't lie down forever. It will attract more players to the stage as governments and intelligence and paramilitary agencies of all kind learn about the incident, and eventually it will blow up.

Go For It Big Time: run it mostly as described and screw the Masquerade. The world don't know what happens, but it is impossible to deny that something happened, and isolating the entire affected area is ridiculous. It is a catastrophe of surreal proportions and investigators from all around the world find weird stuff all the time no matter the efforts otherwise. The Union would have to abandon everything else to even have a chance, so no.

Big "secrets" like the mere existence of the supernatural, vampires, werewolves and spirits go down in a matter of weeks as journalists gather information and evidence. The Masquerade still exists on an individual basis, for now. Hunters are as exposed as everyone else.

Supernatural World War: kind of V5 status quo. Tone it down a lot, but still have it big enough for governments and other big players to notice something is amiss. It must be a far more grounded threat, though, and subtle enough to be hidden from the masses. The Ravnos aren't wiped out, but the Sabbat knows the time has come, everyone is preparing for the worse and the Second Inquisition does start indeed as the Masquerade is half broken at Intelligence levels.

What it distinguishes from V5 for me is that this is still a Gehenna scenario. Things won't stay that "tame" forever as the conflicts between all the factions involved will evolve and escalate, and the other ancients will awaken, but by itself the Week of Nightmares' effects end here.

No Gehenna: my take if the setting didn't go boom, and my headcanon overall about Gehenna. If an ante indeed awake, it wasn't really that big a deal. I mean, it's still a powerful vampire, but not so more powerful than a Methuselah already is, and "transcendence" is just achieving a neat level 10 Combo Discipline. That dude made a loot of trouble, but either eventually calmed down or was killed with a big effort, but a thousandth of the death toll or less. Neutron bombs are overkill and the solar attack wasn't strictly needed, although it may have helped. No world-around effects occurred except maybe for really sensitive ESPers picking something up.

Ancients simply aren't the insurmountable threat described in legend, they're just really old. Their "transcendence", if it occurred, was spiritual/philosophical in nature, or even was the discovery of how to thin your own blood and memories like in Requiem's torpor to go back to feed on animals or mortals. Whatever the truth of it, if any, they may integrate in Kindred society without many vampires even noticing and the world goes on.

[Banu_Saulot]

Guess the Second Inquisition had no more reasons to sit around and say "ah, we don't even know if there is something out there". Besides, if we want to be apologetic, which I don't really want to (I prefer to just make the grand battle a bit smaller, farther from populations, and other alterations), but we can say that many governments did see all this and well, decided to put a bit more money in national security, with special parameters (hunt blankbodies), and by this it also means that the governments tried their best in covering up that whole thing. They could even say that in fact was a terrorist attack, and look good by putting money in security, while actually funding their part in the Second Inquisition "movement". That is how I would rationalize it, but I guess we will have to wait and see the coming book of V5 about SI to know if they will touch in the Week of Nightmares again or not.