WIR 5E Anarchs

[CTPhipps]

The fascist party and later the nazi party embraced the concept of "economic corporatism" in which social and economic conflict was supposed to be mediated by the state working with trade unions and capitalist interests. Divergent interests were supposed to be "coordinated and harmonized in the unity of the State". In practice there was no mediation, the fascist state outlawed all trade unions but its own and formed a rigid top-bottom structure in which workers had the right to do what they were told or else, although it must be said something was done to better the condition of workers with the institution of the "National Recreational Club" ("Opera Nazionale Dopolavoro") which was of course also used for propaganda and indoctrination purposes.

Notably, Paul Verhoven, who grew up in the shadow of WW2 thought about this element of the Nazi party a great deal [while everyone else focused on the racism]. It was a major part of his vision of OCP in Robocop. Later, Paul Verhoven admitted that he was disturbed to discover that the United States corporate structure he created as a lunatic parody was just identical to the real thing.

So, you could argue Pentex is fascist.

[Konradleijon]

Wait the Settites joined the Anarchs, I heard the Anarchs are slowly turning into Sabbat lite.

[CTPhipps]

Wait the Settites joined the Anarchs, I heard the Anarchs are slowly turning into Sabbat lite.

Listen, a bunch of fanatical religious Path followers who worship Blood Gods and disdain humanity have joined the Anarchs. How could that backfire?

[Konradleijon]

Listen, a bunch of fanatical religious Path followers who worship Blood Gods and disdain humanity have joined the Anarchs. How could that backfire?

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GODS!!!

[CTPhipps]

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GODS!!!

But yes, I think the problem of the Anarchs Pre-V5 is the fact that they have a bunch of Brujah anger and Caitiff numbers but they don't have nearly enough "brains." The Ministry, for all the fact they're objectively evil religious zealots, are full of brains.

The Ministry know how to manipulate people, point crowds in the right direction, political intrigue, and scheme with the best of them.

Unfortunately, the same can be said of the Lasombra and that's how the original Anarchs became the Sabbat.

[Konradleijon]

Oh, history repeat , and we know have 2 Sabbats.

[MyWifeIsScary]

The Setites aren't fascists, they're Libertarians, hence the snake imagery. They're Libertarians who actively want to destroy the world, which makes them unusually well informed Libertarians.

[CTPhipps]

Oh, history repeat , and we know have 2 Sabbats.

I feel like the Sabbat will probably split.

1. The weird occult military and cult? The Sabbat.

2. The bunch of crazy burning things down anarchists? The Anarchs.

[MyWifeIsScary]

The Sabbat elders have joined the camarilla; the war in the middle east is a childer cull, just like the Camarilla giving up many of it's members. Kill the young; the youth are rotten; if the species is to survive, it needs to remove its population of fools. God will know his own.

The Camarilla shift to open religion was an ammendment to get the Sabbat elders on board; Camarilla elders were perfectly happy with their secretive cults (and will continue to use secretive cults; we can't openly hate viccissitude with our new fiend friends around, can we?) The Tremere split was also in part to deal with an influx of Sabbat elders (Many Tzmisce will not abide living in a city with Tremere. House Carna on the otherhand...)

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

The First Anarch Revolt

In the darkness of the Dark Ages creatures of darkness waged wars against each other across Europe in the darkness and this led hunters to attacking the darkness.

(clears throat)

As some background…

The Ventrue of the High Middle Ages were nominally based out of what is now called Germany. Over the centuries they waged war across everyone around them, including the Toreador in France, Lasombra across Southern Europe and most disastrously the Tzimisce of Eastern Europe. At the same time the Tremere transformed from a group of treacherous and unpleasant blood wizards to a group of treacherous and unpleasant magic wielding vampires… in the middle of Tzimisce territory. A world already soaked in violence and chaos sank deeper into chaos and violence. And as always the number one tactic the elders used was to throw ancilae and neonates at lethal problems. The younger vampires got tired of this and turned on the elders. This overall warring revealed the existence of vampires to mortal hunters, principally the Inquisition. The Inquisition attacked vampires as well, which increased pressure on them.

The first Anarchs were born in the fires of the Inquisition. They learned to survive and to fight a war against the worst foe to ever threaten our kind until the present day. Many died in the betrayal of the elders, but many more learned they could take charge of their own lives.
- Nakache

This over all war of the relative youths against the elders lasted for centuries before petering out at the end of the 15^th century. The then Baby Camarilla was able to force a meeting between the combatants in the village of Thorns made on October 23, 1493.

French Anarch and revolutionary ideologue Dalia Nakache discusses this meeting. Apparently it did not go well. At least not for the Anarchs, the Banu Haqim, the Tzimisce and the Lasombra. The Camarilla was able to force the Banu Haqim to sign a magical treaty which hobbled the clan until the Demonic Ur-Shulgi recently woke and destroyed the magical aspect of the treaty. However, the follow through of the Camarilla on the subject at the time also debatable, as the Tzimisce and the Lasombra were able to escape and form their own sect, one with blackjack and hookers.

The Anarchs and the nascent Camarilla sent representatives to the town of Thorns to negotiate. This was the first mistake the Anarchs made. There is no negotiating with the Camarilla. You can't win against political manipulators who've spent centuries perfecting their craft.
- Nakache

The original treaty struck at Thorns supposedly gave Anarchs the protection of the Camarilla. That changed recently, in the setting, with the destruction of Hardestadt the Younger by Theo Bell. However, even during the 500 or so years of the existence of the treaty it was widely ignored by the Camarilla and the spat upon by the Anarchs. Even at the time of the treaty some then Anarch leaders cried foul on the entire affair, with Sasha Vykos throwing his (her?) genitals at Hardestad the Elder, and Tyler later killing and diablerizing Hardestadt. All in all, it was a bad time to be Hardestadt.

Nakache notes parallels between modern times, with the disappearing Elder leaving youths to deal with the Second Inquisition. She also asserts that the Anarch movement respresnts the majority of vampires, but that is debatable.

More interesting is her hardline stance that members of the Camarilla cannot be negotiated with; you cannot talk to the opposition and there is no room for opposition.

Thorns is, or was, a rural village near Silchester in Hampsire. Interestingly, notably notorious Noddist Cuthbert Beckett maintains one of his rare fixed havens in the Silchester pub, the Calleva Arms. The pub is apparently a real place. I believe Matthew Dawkins lives in South Central England, he might have visited the pub – otherwise Beckett keeping a haven in the place feels pretty random. Though Thorns, as a village, is a fictional place it should be reasonable to place it on the site of the ruins of Calleva Atrebatum.

[Konradleijon]

The Sabbat elders have joined the camarilla; the war in the middle east is a childer cull, just like the Camarilla giving up many of it's members. Kill the young; the youth are rotten; if the species is to survive, it needs to remove its population of fools. God will know his own.

The Camarilla shift to open religion was an ammendment to get the Sabbat elders on board; Camarilla elders were perfectly happy with their secretive cults (and will continue to use secretive cults; we can't openly hate viccissitude with our new fiend friends around, can we?) The Tremere split was also in part to deal with an influx of Sabbat elders (Many Tzmisce will not abide living in a city with Tremere. House Carna on the otherhand...)

Is that Cannon? Or head cannon?

[Haquim]

Is that Cannon? Or head cannon?

It's just his head canon.

SOME elders of the Sabbat have joined the Camarilla, some others did NOT.

The Tzimisce have NOT joined the Camarilla.

The Tremere's schism caould have been caused by a number of causes.

[CTPhipps]

It's just his head canon.

SOME elders of the Sabbat have joined the Camarilla, some others did NOT.

The Tzimisce have NOT joined the Camarilla.

The Tremere's schism caould have been caused by a number of causes.

MyWifeIsScary doesn't care for the Elders being portrayed as short-sighted idiots and prefers them to be incredibly brilliant 3 dimensional chessmasters that are playing the long game.

[CTPhipps]

CT Phipps' thoughts on the First Anarch Revolt

The First Anarch Revolt

In the darkness of the Dark Ages creatures of darkness waged wars against each other across Europe in the darkness and this led hunters to attacking the darkness.

In the grim dark past of the Middle Ages, there is only war.

The original treaty struck at Thorns supposedly gave Anarchs the protection of the Camarilla. That changed recently, in the setting, with the destruction of Hardestadt the Younger by Theo Bell. However, even during the 500 or so years of the existence of the treaty it was widely ignored by the Camarilla and the spat upon by the Anarchs. Even at the time of the treaty some then Anarch leaders cried foul on the entire affair, with Sasha Vykos throwing his (her?) genitals at Hardestad the Elder, and Tyler later killing and diablerizing Hardestadt. All in all, it was a bad time to be Hardestadt.

It should be noted that Tyler killed Hardestadt before the Convention of Thorns. Indeed, she had a theatrical breakdown when Hardestadt showed up and Tyler went, "I KILLLLEDDD YOU!" This certainly didn't do much for her credibility. Mind you, we all know it was an imposter but given that Dominate is capable of convincing individuals of whatever you want them to or replacing memories, it makes sense that Tyler might have had her memory changed by Hardestadt the Elder as a last ditch attempt to escape being murdered. It also is a rather brilliant master stroke. Tyler is humiliated and much of her cred with the Anarchs is destroyed. Ironically, it might actually go a long way to explaining why she gave up revolution as her greatest accomplishment was apparently all for naught.

I have this mental image of Beckett then casually revealing that she DID kill the "real" Hardestadt and unknowingly reigniting her Anarch fire. I also believe she's the person who helped Theo Bell kill Hardestadt II and escape in the aftermath.

Why? Because Beckett ruins everything.

Nakache notes parallels between modern times, with the disappearing Elder leaving youths to deal with the Second Inquisition. She also asserts that the Anarch movement respresnts the majority of vampires, but that is debatable.

"History does not repeat but it rhymes." - Mark Twain.

In retrospect, its kind of funny that the Brujah and Assamites surrendered but that was pretty much it for Anarch surrenders.

Even then, the Assamites claim they did so because the Tremere curse actually was a way to reign in the diablerie curse by the Baali.

Which I don't buy.

More interesting is her hardline stance that members of the Camarilla cannot be negotiated with; you cannot talk to the opposition and there is no room for opposition.

Mind you, this is both a ridiculous assertion and also fairly good politics. For the majority of vampires, at least until Prague, the Camarilla means absolutely nothing other than a vague organization that exists only if you screw up. Most Kindred aren't going to have to deal with the Sheriff or Prince unless they screw up. The thing is that also means the majority of vampires have no strong feelings for the Camarilla either. For most Camarilla vampires prior to Prague, the Camarilla was an "Elders only" thing that you hopefully never had to deal with. It neither engendered loyalty or hate--and so the Anarch Movement was quiescient unless you were Caitiff, Brujah, or Thin Blooded.

Prague is important because it radicalized the Camarilla as much as it radicalized the Anarchs. Now you had to make displays of loyalty and obedience if you were Brujah or Gangrel. You also were expected to report to the Sheriff if you had any suspicious friends or dealings. You also needed to remove any and all technology beyond a landline (or just hoped they never noticed). You were either VERY FOR the Camarilla or you were against it.

Fully expect your domain, which most Kindred were aware of but not going to explode over, to have the Final Death given to you if you hunted in it without permission and were not somebody's friend,

RL terrorists use this in real life. You spank the government or authorities in an area, they crack down on people who are LIKE the terrorists, and the people like the terrorists then get pissed and join the terrorists. It was actually the focus of an ASSASSINS CREED: ORIGINS DLC where one of the Assassins allies was murdering Roman troops so the Romans would sack the local villages and thus generate a dozen new recruits.

As much as I love the Anarchs, they're a force to be reckoned with now because the hardcore Anarchs have made life miserable for a lot of non-Anarchs.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

There is also a practical aspect to it - the enemies here can wreck each other's minds when they make eye contact. So, you avoid talking to them and making eye contact. That is in addition to everyone involved being a vampire, and thus an untrustworthy murderer and liar. And I really like the idea of Beckett accidentally setting Tyler off on another killing spree.