Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[Sergeant Brother]

The Lasombra would have made sense as a Camarilla Clan from the beginning, maybe Tzimisce too though that’s more controversial.

If there is an actual demand to kill an older vampire to gain entrance into the Camarilla, then that isn’t nothing. That is an outrageous insult of a demand that Lasombra should reject for the sake of their dignity even if there are victims that they could easily supply. Even if the Lasombra saw such killing as good for some kind of Social Darwinist reasons, I can’t imagine that many would want to so thoroughly humble themselves by capitulating to such a humiliating condition.

[CTPhipps]

Why yes there are several options
1) scrap the idea because its terrible and isn't panning out. Investment fallacy swings both ways
2) join the anarchs instead.
3) make it clear that joining the anarchs or remaining in the Sabbat are preferable options to what is currently proposed and neither of which will benefit the struggling carmarilla and provide counter proposals.
4) pretend to agree to the moronic demands, purge every ivory tower advocates as your "sacrifices' and take the opertunity to riddle the carmarilla with deep cover agents. Play the whole thing off as a false flag operation and wait to see how things pan out.

Well it doesn't work for you and I hope you continue your version of the old version.

Personally, the Lasombra probably would have been better at home in the Camarilla from the beginning. After all they'd never fit in a sect that emphasizes egalitarianism and freedom.

I am really surprised you don't see the Camarilla's demand as nothingburger, though. The Lasombra won that one by a long shot. It's being paid to do something you'd do for free.

[Ragged Robin]

Your argument seems to be why they shouldn't defect but they've already decided to defect. So it's a matter of them making sure when you leave Don Corleone's business, you make sure he can't put a hit on you afterward.

It's like, "It's a pretty bad idea to kill the people who are already going to try to kill you." Except it isn't because, again, they're already committed to leaving the Sabbat. Which they are because they don't want to fight in the Gehenna War and feel its suicide.

Is there an argument not to join the Camarilla if they have have already decided to defect? Just curious.
.

Why yes there are several options
1) scrap the idea because its terrible and isn't panning out. Investment fallacy swings both ways
2) join the anarchs instead.
3) make it clear that joining the anarchs or remaining in the Sabbat are preferable options to what is currently proposed and neither of which will benefit the struggling carmarilla and provide counter proposals.
4) pretend to agree to the moronic demands, purge every ivory tower advocates as your "sacrifices' and take the opertunity to riddle the carmarilla with deep cover agents. Play the whole thing off as a false flag operation and wait to see how things pan out.

[CTPhipps]

Ok.....so what I'm getting from CT and co are...."Because the writers wrote the Lasombra into a corner they are fucked and fans of them should be grateful that the writers didn't make them more fucked. Here is a way they can be slightly less fucked but still way more fucked than they were before they were fucked over. Why aren't you people happy?"

Paraphrased obviously.



( An attempt to add levity to a fairly hostile thread......please no ban.)

I feel like that's a weird complaint because, isn't that just, "Harry Potter's life sucked! It's almost like as if a fictional character had things happen to him because a writer wrote them in!" I mean, yes, bad things happened to the Lasombra because the writers wrote them in. The ONLY things that can happen to the Lasombra are things the writer writes in.

I mean, if your objection is, "I don't want the Lasombra to leave the Sabbat." That's fine. But I don't think its a silly idea that under a variety of bad things that are part of the metaplot, that a good chunk of the Lasombra backstabbed their allies.

Especially when the clan ideology is, literally, "Loyalty is for suckers."

Given the writing of V5 I have no clue if Lasombra is f*cked or not. Killing an elder seems to be a big deal though and I doubt that every defector has to "kill a bunch of their fellow Lasombra" to get out.

To be fair, the terms Kevin Jackson put out are more, "Kill a Sabbat older than you." Which is extremely flexible. Also, the Amis Nocti and others like them have their own deals separate from the Lasombra as a whole.

Sierra, the Lasombra who negotiated the terms, killed a Lasombra veteran of WW2.

[Ignithas]

Given the writing of V5 I have no clue if Lasombra is f*cked or not. Killing an elder seems to be a big deal though and I doubt that every defector has to "kill a bunch of their fellow Lasombra" to get out.

[Damian May]

Ok.....so what I'm getting from CT and co are...."Because the writers wrote the Lasombra into a corner they are fucked and fans of them should be grateful that the writers didn't make them more fucked. Here is a way they can be slightly less fucked but still way more fucked than they were before they were fucked over. Why aren't you people happy?"

Paraphrased obviously.



( An attempt to add levity to a fairly hostile thread......please no ban.)

[CTPhipps]

The downsides is you've killed your backup to join a sect which hates you and that ls presuming your fancy your odds vs a Sabbat Eldar. Not to mention it might be you up for the chop from your clanmates.

Its more like being ordered to fight your boss and burn down your house and the boss is Mike Tyson and he's been offered the same deal.

Lol that's even worse, can you imagine what's going to happen once the fiends and anti's figure out what's going on when some dumb neonate takes a shot at a koldun?

Theirs a difference between fighting your way out and proactively killing an Sabbat eldar. Sorry I got that wrong, stake and bring it across the lines. Way harder.

Any true lasombra is never going to cash in their power and dignity to become something simular to caitiff. True lasombra also don't commit suicide for nothing.

Your argument seems to be why they shouldn't defect but they've already decided to defect. So it's a matter of them making sure when you leave Don Corleone's business, you make sure he can't put a hit on you afterward.

It's like, "It's a pretty bad idea to kill the people who are already going to try to kill you." Except it isn't because, again, they're already committed to leaving the Sabbat. Which they are because they don't want to fight in the Gehenna War and feel its suicide.

Is there an argument not to join the Camarilla if they have have already decided to defect? Just curious.

That seems really dangerous. Any of those Lasombra could easily be a double agent. You can't know for sure that any one of them isn't still secretly a diablarist loyal to the Sabbat. Most likely they'll have to spend a few decades proving themselves before anyone is willing to stick their neck out for them.

Further the Brujah and Gangrel who remain have already proven their loyalty, having chosen to stand with the Camarilla over standing with their Clan. Treating those guys, many of whom probably have decades or centuries in the Camrilla worse than newcomer Lasombra who just rolled into town last week would be a wonderful way to convince those remaining Gangrel and Brujah to say fuck it, we're out too, our clans were right, the Camarilla really doesn't appreciate us and never did.

I mean to be fair, I fully expect that will happen because 5e seems dead set on making the Camarilla a very exclusive club run by very shortsighted fools.

Is it short sighted, though? The Camarilla exists to benefit a privileged few and always has. It's why it's Gothic PUNK. What could hurt the Camarilla in the long run probably won't hurt the individuals of the Camarilla who might benefit from the Lasombra being a High Clan.

Even then, the short term benefit of the Lasombra is pretty impressive too, which is to cause immense permanent damage to the Sabbat and their morale.

As we're getting a Sabbat book, it's not a killing blow to the Sabbat but those Camarilla members who hate the Sabbat are still doing a lot of damage.

[Ragged Robin]

You have yet to list a downside. The Lasombra defecting knew they would have to kill a bunch of their fellow Lasombra on the way out to make sure that they suceeded so I don't see a downside.

It's like being ordered as a condition of the defection to eat some chocolate cake.

Besides, it's not 1:1 LASOMBRA Elder for a Lasombra defection. It's 1:1 a SABBAT Elder.

If you're defecting, you want to kill your enemies on the way out. It's flat out silly to think the Lasombra of the Sabbat wouldn't try to kill you or there wouldn't be fighting, which makes the Camarilla's request moronic.

Besides, what TRUE Lasombra gives a shit about anyone but themselves?

The downsides is you've killed your backup to join a sect which hates you and that ls presuming your fancy your odds vs a Sabbat Eldar. Not to mention it might be you up for the chop from your clanmates.

Its more like being ordered to fight your boss and burn down your house and the boss is Mike Tyson and he's been offered the same deal.

Lol that's even worse, can you imagine what's going to happen once the fiends and anti's figure out what's going on when some dumb neonate takes a shot at a koldun?

Theirs a difference between fighting your way out and proactively killing an Sabbat eldar. Sorry I got that wrong, stake and bring it across the lines. Way harder.

Any true lasombra is never going to cash in their power and dignity to become something simular to caitiff. True lasombra also don't commit suicide for nothing.

[AnubisXy]

3. The Gangrel and Brujah leftover in the Camarilla are going to be below the Lasombra. I'm not sure the Malks and Nosferatu will be beneath them either because they get treated like crap by the High Clans anyway.

That seems really dangerous. Any of those Lasombra could easily be a double agent. You can't know for sure that any one of them isn't still secretly a diablarist loyal to the Sabbat. Most likely they'll have to spend a few decades proving themselves before anyone is willing to stick their neck out for them.

Further the Brujah and Gangrel who remain have already proven their loyalty, having chosen to stand with the Camarilla over standing with their Clan. Treating those guys, many of whom probably have decades or centuries in the Camrilla worse than newcomer Lasombra who just rolled into town last week would be a wonderful way to convince those remaining Gangrel and Brujah to say fuck it, we're out too, our clans were right, the Camarilla really doesn't appreciate us and never did.

I mean to be fair, I fully expect that will happen because 5e seems dead set on making the Camarilla a very exclusive club run by very shortsighted fools.

[CTPhipps]

Yes, they welcome the chance to Darwinistically prove themselves.

The issue is what happens after.
They're in a sect that fears and loaths them, and they've just killed their former allies. They'll never be worthy of trust, and they aren't plentiful. They've lost much of their backgrounds, and the established powers will prevent them from regaining them. A big influx of Lasombra will destabilize any city and upset locals, and the unfamiliarity with the new rules will be worked against the Lasombra.

While social darwinists like the idea of people struggling, that doesn't mean they want to struggle themselves. The Lasombra are very assured of their above-averageness, most people think they're above average, and the Lasombra are sure they rank above those people. They don't want to be tested and go through hardship for it. They don't want to be moved to the position they were so happy to look down on. From the mindset of a Lasombra: the real fools that need to be "darwinized" are the morons who accept the Camarilla deal.

Frankly, I think you severely overstate the idea anyone in the Camarilla has an ideological problem with the Lasombra.

The Lasombra are murderous, evil, backstabbing manipulators.

Sounds like they'll fit right in.

Maybe Neonates buy this whole, "Sabbat are inherently far worse than any normal vampire" nonsense but we all know better. In the end, the Lasombra are welcome at the Camarilla because they're a classy bunch of Bond villains and the Camarilla welcomes all undead of quality. It seems silly to deny them when so many other posts are about the Camarilla having all vampires among them.

[CTPhipps]

There's also other factoids:

1. The Beckoning/Gehenna War means the Camarilla no longer has a lot of the Elders they used to enforce poor terms on the Lasombra.

2. The Assamites are not going to hold 600 years of grudges against the Lasombra. So they're an automatic new ally.

3. The Gangrel and Brujah leftover in the Camarilla are going to be below the Lasombra. I'm not sure the Malks and Nosferatu will be beneath them either because they get treated like crap by the High Clans anyway.

4. The Tremere have been seriously beaten the fuck up so the Lasombra are not going to be overwhelmed by them either.

5. The Camarilla no longer holds Noddism and other creepy cult behavior against its members with Hardelstadt's death and, well, Gehenna.

6. The whole "All Lasombra must be on Humanity" thing is thus out the window (Humanity no longer works like that).

7. The Lasombra did have enough of a number in the Camarilla to have an Antribu bloodline. They're not complete newcomers. Certainly, they had more than, say, the Tzimisce.

TLDR version: With so many dead vampires, there's serious growth potential for the Lasombra in the Camarilla.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Imagine a Sith Lord. Take away their lightsaber and Force lightning, and give them fangs and shadows. That's a Lasombra.

They welcome this shit. The terms as you describe them are Christmas, Thanksgiving, Halloween, and Memorial Day all rolled into one for them.

Yes, they welcome the chance to Darwinistically prove themselves.

The issue is what happens after.
They're in a sect that fears and loaths them, and they've just killed their former allies. They'll never be worthy of trust, and they aren't plentiful. They've lost much of their backgrounds, and the established powers will prevent them from regaining them. A big influx of Lasombra will destabilize any city and upset locals, and the unfamiliarity with the new rules will be worked against the Lasombra.

While social darwinists like the idea of people struggling, that doesn't mean they want to struggle themselves. The Lasombra are very assured of their above-averageness, most people think they're above average, and the Lasombra are sure they rank above those people. They don't want to be tested and go through hardship for it. They don't want to be moved to the position they were so happy to look down on. From the mindset of a Lasombra: the real fools that need to be "darwinized" are the morons who accept the Camarilla deal.

[Theodrim]

At the very least they've lost all of the prestige and favors and allies that they've spent centuries accumulating in the Sabbat...

To be fair, most of that prestige, and most of those favors and allies fucked off to the other side of the planet to leap down a methuselah's gullet. It's unlikely a millennia-old blood god is going to pop out of nowhere and give you a handy, because your former buddy was their breakfast.

That's something that they might get in time, but that is time where they'll have gone from being the leaders of one of the two major Vampire sects to being at pretty much the absolute the bottom in the other sect.

The Lasombra don't really have to do much, other than not be the ones getting droned or hosed down with incendiary rounds. Suffice to say if you're whacking an older vampire than you to buy admission, you're probably averse to being the greater fool in the first place and perfectly happy letting someone else take the bullets while you get your house in order.

That's not getting into the fact that a lot of them have to move off of their Paths of Enlightenment and re-embrace Humanity and giving up the philosophy that you've spent centuries following and making central to your existence is a huge sacrifice.

Not really, at the end of the day they're still the social Darwinists of the World of Darkness. The ones who fall to Wassail were the weak ones and deserve to be eaten.

[MarkK]

3. I feel like in intrigue, the Lasombra beat the Ventrue most times. It's the Toreador they have to worry about,.

I wouldn't really say so there. It seems to hash out to about even, though either clan would commit murder rather than admit that.

I mean take the back and forth of the Sect War in revised. Polonia engineers the unstoppable Sabbat rampage across the Eastern Seaboard, sure, but then suddenly he's lost New York to a war effort brought into motion by various Ventrue bigwigs (the rest of the Sabbat rightfully being furious with that and wondering if that makes their gains for naught).

[AnubisXy]

1. Are they giving up anything? If they do their cards right, they take their territory with them and if they don't have territory then they aren't losing anything. It's a change of venues. The Amis Noctis are losing nothing because the Lasombra who'd follow them are following them.

At the very least they've lost all of the prestige and favors and allies that they've spent centuries accumulating in the Sabbat. They are also giving up their position of leadership. The ones who left and joined the Camarilla are no longer leaders of anything. They don't have a Justicar or a seat on the Inner Council yet. That's something that they might get in time, but that is time where they'll have gone from being the leaders of one of the two major Vampire sects to being at pretty much the absolute the bottom in the other sect.

That's not getting into the fact that a lot of them have to move off of their Paths of Enlightenment and re-embrace Humanity and giving up the philosophy that you've spent centuries following and making central to your existence is a huge sacrifice.