Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[CTPhipps]

I mean you've got Lasombra who are giving up the powerbase and prestige they've spent 5 centuries in the Sabbat amassing so that they can start over and spend the next century kissing Ventrue butt until they've amassing enough prestige in the Camarilla to try and take over. Killing a few other Lasombra on the way out is hardly much of a sacrifice compared to that.

A few points:

1. Are they giving up anything? If they do their cards right, they take their territory with them and if they don't have territory then they aren't losing anything. It's a change of venues. The Amis Noctis are losing nothing because the Lasombra who'd follow them are following them.

2. The Lasombra would love to butter up the Ventrue. It will make the sudden but inevitable betrayal all the sweeter.

3. I feel like in intrigue, the Lasombra beat the Ventrue most times. It's the Toreador they have to worry about,.

[AnubisXy]

The deal is the effective 50% casualty rate of as written, probably closer to 75-90% once the clan implodes into infighting when they realize half of them are going to die that is the worst deal I've ever seen anywere ever and my MA is history so extreme demands of surrender are not a novelty.

I mean you've got Lasombra who are giving up the powerbase and prestige they've spent 5 centuries in the Sabbat accumulating so that they can start over and spend the next century kissing Ventrue butt until they've amassed enough prestige in the Camarilla to try and take over. Killing a few other Lasombra on the way out is hardly much of a sacrifice compared to that.

[Theodrim]

The deal is the effective 50% casualty rate of as written, probably closer to 75-90% once the clan implodes into infighting when they realize half of them are going to die that is the worst deal I've ever seen anywere ever and my MA is history so extreme demands of surrender are not a novelty.

Imagine a Sith Lord. Take away their lightsaber and Force lightning, and give them fangs and shadows. That's a Lasombra.

They welcome this shit. The terms as you describe them are Christmas, Thanksgiving, Halloween, and Memorial Day all rolled into one for them.

[CTPhipps]

The deal is the effective 50% casualty rate of as written, probably closer to 75-90% once the clan implodes into infighting when they realize half of them are going to die that is the worst deal I've ever seen anywere ever and my MA is history so extreme demands of surrender are not a novelty.

You have yet to list a downside. The Lasombra defecting knew they would have to kill a bunch of their fellow Lasombra on the way out to make sure that they suceeded so I don't see a downside.

It's like being ordered as a condition of the defection to eat some chocolate cake.

Besides, it's not 1:1 LASOMBRA Elder for a Lasombra defection. It's 1:1 a SABBAT Elder.

If you're defecting, you want to kill your enemies on the way out. It's flat out silly to think the Lasombra of the Sabbat wouldn't try to kill you or there wouldn't be fighting, which makes the Camarilla's request moronic.

Besides, what TRUE Lasombra gives a shit about anyone but themselves?

[CTPhipps]

They're not really a sect. They're just a single Clan now, all having the same discipline spread and the same Clan weakness.

To be fair, there's Loresheets that allow otherwise and its implied (at least I think it's where I'm going) that they may do Bloodlines like this from now on.

I don't much care for it.

I feel like there's no reason that it should have had a magical transformation so that everyone was the same Clan and Weaknesses.

[Ragged Robin]

Bluntly, I don't think there's a good reason why the Lasombra would stay with a sinking ship and think they got a good deal.

The deal is the effective 50% casualty rate of as written, probably closer to 75-90% once the clan implodes into infighting when they realize half of them are going to die that is the worst deal I've ever seen anywere ever and my MA is history so extreme demands of surrender are not a novelty.

[AnubisXy]

The Hecata are a Blood Cult but really a minor sect.

Two small Clans and some Bloodlines.

They're not really a sect. They're just a single Clan now, all having the same discipline spread and the same Clan weakness.

[CTPhipps]

I think that's part of the problem: I'm not. It's frankly a bit of a mess and I'm forced to do re-writes to make it synergise better with previous works. The Defection of the Lasombra doesnt really enhance the setting or game in any meaningful way, in fact most primary lasombra players/fanboys I've spoken with react....caustically and on a emotive level I don't like how it's written a great deal and that's before we get more sophisticated with feedback.

I disagree but YMMV.

I note that the Lasombra are one of the most popular LARP clans for the Camarilla. Simply put they're a sexy, devious, and elegant clan that fits well with the Camarilla. This just makes it easier to play them.

Bluntly, I don't think there's a good reason why the Lasombra would stay with a sinking ship and think they got a good deal.

[Ragged Robin]

My take on the Lasombra defection is that it makes perfect sense if you are willing to accept all of the other elements of V5 (The Second Inquisition, Gehenna Crusade, Anarch Uprising, The Beckoning). Also, including BJD's "BIG EPIC CLIMAX" where the leadership of the Lasombra finds out that Lasombra is alive and has been living in the basement of his castle the entire time under their very noses.

I think that's part of the problem: I'm not. It's frankly a bit of a mess and I'm forced to do re-writes to make it synergise better with previous works. The Defection of the Lasombra doesnt really enhance the setting or game in any meaningful way, in fact most primary lasombra players/fanboys I've spoken with react....caustically (lots of short curt anglo saxon nouns and verbs interspliced with some equally colourful language about Oblivion) and on a emotive level I don't like how it's written a great deal and that's before we get more sophisticated with feedback, I'm happy to modify to lore but I really sincerly think The lasombra defenction was badly handled and I honestly don't know why the developers did it.

[Theodrim]

...Yes, the Lasombra have some nasty conditions on them...

I mean, look at what the Lasombra do as a precondition for the embrace, how the Amici handle intra-clan disputes, and how the Lasombra influenced Sabbat internal policies and policing. Compared to that, Jackson's "terms" may as well have been rolling out the red carpet and personally hosting the "welcome to the Camarilla!" party. He gave an entire sect's express sanction for what had to be a long-anticipated housecleaning as terms of membership.

The only thing missing from the write-up, was how good a laugh the Amici probably had after hearing his terms.

[CTPhipps]

I think the Lasombra are probably the weakest written of the Clan defections, to the point I'd suggest it's out and out badly written. Personally I've tweaked it into more of an established Antritribu in the Carmarilla following mass defections, 3rd and 20th have both commented in underlying tensions within the neonates of the clan feeling held back by their Eldars contradictory expectations and unrealistic demands so It wouldnt be much of a stretch for a major splinter groups to cross the isle combining with the Established Carmarilla Lasombra to form a fully fledged clan presence. The Lasombra are still majority Sabbat and it's a certainty that not all the defectors are sincere. the Caramillas demands are genrally more reasonable due to the lack of street muscle in that defectors are expected to tolerate a period of 'prospects' before formal acceptance occurs. Exceptionally infamous Keepers are expected to provide their blood to the local Tremere or some other such gesture of good faith.....naturally the foundation 3 b of the ivory tower: Bribary, Blackmail and Bloodbonds has gone a long way to smoothing things over.

My take on the Lasombra defection is that it makes perfect sense if you are willing to accept all of the other elements of V5 (The Second Inquisition, Gehenna Crusade, Anarch Uprising, The Beckoning). Also, including BJD's "BIG EPIC CLIMAX" where the leadership of the Lasombra finds out that Lasombra is alive and has been living in the basement of his castle the entire time under their very noses.

The Lasombra have seen everything going to Hell and decided that the Sabbat is no longer good money. I would summarize it in the TLDF as, "The Lasombra found out the Antediluvians were real and unkillable, which means the prospect of hunting them down as the rest of the Sabbat was now all-in on was no longer palatable."

Even then, CHICAGO BY NIGHT indicates that the number of Lasombra who defected were only about half and that was post-Civil War numbers. It was the only time in the history of both sects that there would be a lot of open spaces in the Camarilla power base due to the Beckoning and missing Clans. Yes, the Lasombra have some nasty conditions on them but Kevin Jackson fudged up the negotiations by leaving ample interpretation on how to fulfill his terms. He was just an Ancilla after all.

The Nagaraja have nothing to do with Cappodocians/Harbingers of Skulls, Giovanni, or Samedi. They actually pre-date all of them and have been active since the 2nd City. Their entire lore centers around Enoch. They were originally Mages in service to the city and did a ritual with Setite blood to themselves into the Nagaraja. And even despite of the origin of their clan name, "Nagaraja" (which is a word from South Asia generally, from various languages therein at that region), they mostly have an origin straight from the Middle-East, since the both the 1st and 2nd cities are presumed to be located there. There name must have been adopted later on.

I think the Nagaraja are like 10K years after Enoch. The Euthanatos (without being called that) were interested in studying death and were disappointed to find out vampires knew very little about the subject themselves. They found Enoch in the Underworld but have no connection to the Second City.

However, I believe the True Hand PREDATE the Cappadocians.

[Theodrim]

I think the Lasombra are probably the weakest written of the Clan defections, to the point I'd suggest it's out and out badly written.

It's one of the smarter, in my opinion.

The Lasombra perspective is the same of most clans' with regards to the Camarilla/Sabbat divide. There are elders who consider sect membership a disposable matter of expedience and usefulness, and the youngers who are true believers -- and who overwhelmingly tend to be their elders' useful idiots. The Lasombra hold a particular grudge against their antitribu for being traitors to the clan, not for having refused to join the Sabbat. A key distinction, as not all Lasombra antitribu are Camarilla, but they're despised and hunted all the same.

And even then, that hatred is only truly manifest in the younger, useful idiots', minds. For those beyond mindless loyalty to sect, it's pure expedience and a neat excuse for sanctioned diablerie by the Amici. Meanwhile, the antitribu had centuries to perfect the art of power and rulership absent visibility, a matter of necessity due to being actively hunted by the (idiots of the) main clan.

A circumstance all parties are absolutely happy with, because may the mightiest Lasombra win, and let those undeserving of the blood fall. Forget the clan's ultimate devotion to social Darwinism at your own peril.

So, enter circumstances in which the clan's idiots fucked off to the Middle East for their grand Gehenna LARP. That meant the smart Lasombra stayed behind...and exactly what one would expect of a clan full of ruthless social Darwinists who have had centuries to master the art of ruling invisibly, happened. They threw the weak among them under the bus to infiltrate the Camarilla.

[Shakanaka]

This effectively allows pretty much everyone to play necromancers without screwing up the clan cultures.

I fully agree and love the way of how you handled the "Hecata" in your own canon. The problem with the full V5 canon metaplot route, in contrast to yours, is that literally all the Clans that joined the Hecata have inexplicably out of nowhere lost EVERYTHING that has made them unique and everything has been completely homogenized. Not just down to the fluff, but mechanically as well.

The concept of the Hecata isn't something that's bad on the surface. It could have truly been a new Sect, but its a De-facto Clan instead of De-jure like you had it listed out. The Hecata could have worked as a new, niche, but interesting forth new Sect in the game (though as of late, VTM is only down to 2 sects).

EDIT:

"Hi, we're your long-lost cousins from Delhi! Did you guys save us some seats?"

The Nagaraja have nothing to do with Cappodocians/Harbingers of Skulls, Giovanni, or Samedi. They actually pre-date all of them and have been active since the 2nd City. Their entire lore centers around Enoch. They were originally Mages in service to the city and did a ritual with Setite blood to themselves into the Nagaraja. And even despite of the origin of their clan name, "Nagaraja" (which is a word from South Asia generally, from various languages therein at that region), they mostly have an origin straight from the Middle-East, since the both the 1st and 2nd cities are presumed to be located there. There name must have been adopted later on.

[CTPhipps]

The Hecata are a Blood Cult but really a minor sect.

Two small Clans and some Bloodlines.

Amusingly, the Hecata are not a thing Paradox came up with. They were part of the Beckett's Jyhad Diarty original draft as I understand it and its existence was part of Onyx Path's plans for VAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE 4TH EDITION.

Which means that they got to incorporate some of their original plan.

[Matt the Bruins fan]

As long as I'm critiquing clan changes, the Nagaraja being absorbed into the children of Cappadocius is sheer nonsense. I get it, too many clans and bloodlines had Necromancy and it stopped being special. Fine. Good point, even. Merge the Cappadocians and finally resolve that haggard storyline, but the Nagaraja are a wholly different thing of their own.

I think the people who describe that as a wholly pragmatic move on the part of the Nagaraja have the right of it. The Tal'Mahe'Ra was doing things like admitting Baali en masse, the sect's Harbingers of Skulls peaced out for the Family Reunion, and the Nagaraja asked if they could tag along as the latter's +1 when they realized their interests and aims aligned better with their fellow necromancers. "Hi, we're your long-lost cousins from Delhi! Did you guys save us some seats?"