Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[MarkK]

Eh, every Elder is oppressed by an Elder older to them. Which goes to kind of show that conflict is one that in a more idealistic setting would result in diplomacy.

Oh sure, but the Tzimisce and Lasombra in particular were notable for that their revolt included elders who were even from the dawn of the Roman Empire or possibly older. (Vitel for instance joined the rebel Lasombra and actively fought on the Anarch side during the first revolt before he decided they weren't worth his time, Velya was a foundational part of the Tzimisce revolt). It's just a bit of a stand out.

[MarkK]

And the one that survived on the opposition was the two thousand year old fourth generation, whose age and esteem within the clan were higher than Gratiano's, yet somehow Montano wasn't able to rally those outside the Castle of Shadow's walls to wage an organized resistance against Gratiano's comparatively few followers?

Montano's problems ranged from that frankly, a lot of the other ancient Lasombra didn't actually like him much (the reward for being an honourable cainite in an overall vampiric world that likes to claim it values honour but in truth in their hearts despises and tears at at those who show the quality for being genuine), that a bunch of "younger" Lasombra elders extra didn't like him for his part in the attempted Greybeard's Deal of the Reconquista, and that of the various Lasombra Methuselahs who basically just ignored the Anarch Revolt in favour of their own schemes and interests and survived into the modern nights fine (of which there are a surprising number when you look at it), they outright didn't care what happened.

His other problem is that in working against the will of his own sire to rally against Gratiano and his followers, well, he was working against the will of an Antediluvian at that point (two of them if you think about it). For whatever reason, Tzimisce and Lasombra wanted the Anarch Revolt to happen and the Sabbat to coalesce. At that point Montano may as well have been trying to stop a hurricane.

Additional problems were that vampires like Marcus Vitel were actively supporting Gratiano and the Anarchs as a whole for quite a while. They liked the idea of the revolt and the opportunities it offered before deciding in the end it wasn't for them.

Same thing as what I just said: those who are critical of the decision to have the Lasombra join the Camarilla, are exercising some...highly selective and suspect, to say the least...reasoning.

That doesn't make your own reasoning better. It's in many ways just as selective for the way you seem to want to argue against their critique. You are not improving the situation by what you put forward.

But fine, I'll jump on in.

So, okay, if I wanted to reach forward for a better argument against what's noted against the defection in critiquing it, I would go for this: The Camarilla, while assholes, need all the help they can get right now for reasons V5 makes blatant right from the core, and the Lasombra, while assholes, need all the help they can get right now because if they stay with the Sabbat, there is at least 30% odds they are going to be eaten alive by resurgent Methuselahs/Lasombra himself having a larf, and any odds of something like that happening that are above 0% are terrible odds that no one should want to risk no matter what they have to give up to stop risking that. Neither faction are idiots. If either group shits on each other too hard/tries to play each other too hard, the deal will fall apart. None of them want that. The Lasombra will certainly suffer in meaningful ways for joining the Camarilla, at the hands of the Camarilla, there are going to be princes who will make them suffer, even the Amici expect that will happen and accepted that it will happen as an acceptable loss. It would border on silly to expect that after centuries of the Lasombra trying to wipe out the entire Camarilla, that there would not be some measure of suffering to endure to instead join it, and the Lasombra are not foolish enough to think that there wouldn't be or that they could totally just game that. We already see proclamations from Princes that are outright brutal supporting that this isn't going to be a pleasant ride for the Lasombra clan that costs them nothing of value. But eventually that should expend itself to make sure the Camarilla still get a clan out of it once everyone vents their spleens, as it were, because they do still want some kind of clan to remain afterwards. It's not a terrible arrangement but it certainly isn't a strong one. It's two groups in a bad place salvaging what they can off each other and dealing with that there is a lot of bad blood regardless. That doesn't really make for the best deals, but it is what it is. If you squint, it's plausible.

Is the level of suffering that has come to the Camarilla such that they would welcome the Lasombra bad writing? I certainly think so, and could go on at length for why. Is the level of suffering that has come to the Lasombra that it makes sense to fuck off from the Sabbat in the name of not dying bad writing? I certainly think so, and could go on at length for why. But if you want to take the current state of the setting on its own terms, the Lasombra getting the fuck out of Sabbat makes sense (because the other option is die and they aren't that prideful), and the only other group they could exist in in a manner that suits their preferences is the Camarilla.

And you act as if the capacity to maximize strategic advantages such as insider information, knowledge of resource allocation and depletion, comparative might, and the element of surprise isn't an individual quality in and of itself.

When the capacity and situational circumstances to leverage such in the way that the Lasombra can now did not previously exist, no, it isn't a quality in the sense of trying to weigh it against a situation that is completely dissimilar.

I damn well can weigh Lasombra exploitation of strategic advantages as a superior accomplishment, and I damn well will. Because not only is that Jyhad 101, it's being measured against the Camarilla's performance at the height of its own capacity as you pointed out yourself, and the Camarilla plays the exact same game when warfighting against the Sabbat.

You can say that you can fly and you damn well will. What do you think will happen if you jump off a roof though? Your posts are hitting "this is so because I say so". Your comparison is straight up apples and oranges stuff. The things the Lasombra can do with situational advantages and degradations that could not have possibly existed for the Camarilla during the height of the sect war means that one situation is one thing, and another situation is a completely different thing. To insist that they are comparable anyway is to start having a fight with English, not me. And again, you continue to roll on with ignoring things like, a surprising lack of solo warfighter badassery in Lasombra that we have seen make it into the Camarilla, as opposed to completely theoretical Lasombra you say are out there, being impossible solo badasses. While you are also ignoring things like even Malenkov going down to a group, and that the one other incident we see that could possibly fit what you insist will be the thing that will happen, the attempt on Talley by his childe, not actually working.

I mean, you're the one who brought up the Battle of New York in the other thread. How did the Camarilla win that, again? Because if I remember right -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- that involved interrogation of Sabbat spirit slaves (insider information), radioactive blood slipped to Sabbat packs to trace their movements (knowledge of resource allocation and depletion), and daytime mass arson of Sabbat havens (element of surprise).

I really hope you understand you're now arguing against yourself. If the Camarilla could do all that to the Sabbat when the Sabbat was at the height of their power, such that they took one of their most important cities from them, despite the Sabbat having within a year previous having rocked the living hell out of the Camarilla as far as the Eastern Seaboard rampage, who are you to go on like this:

Especially for the fact the attempt to take said elder down was made, and it was successful. Which, given the targets involved, their political allegiances and nemeses, and their continued existence, means that was a feat the Camarilla, to that point, was incapable. This is the sect with the vampires who supposedly specialize in hunting Sabbat, dedicated anti-Sabbat strategies that have been honed to supposed perfection over the course of centuries, and the near-limitless resources at those specialists' disposal acting on behalf of an entire sect.

In other words, the clan's terms of entry are to do what Archons -- hell, coteries of Archons -- couldn't.

You want to talk about how incapable the Camarilla was in comparison to even solo Lasombra, that solo Lasombra can pull off what coteries of archons can't (and again, example? From the game?), but you also want to talk about the Siege of New York now? (Also the Siege of New York involved everything from being able to destabilize the Italian economy in order to credibly threaten the Giovanni into compliance/accepting bribes for tasks, to the things you note, to Fabrizio Ulfila riling the Society of Leopold against the Sabbat for a few months in advance to weaken them, to several direct, brutal mass combats that could not be avoided. This is what it took to go at the Sword of Caine in the height of their oomph. The Lasombra having to kill various members of their own clan/the Sabbat are facing no such difficulties and no such strength. The Sabbat don't even really have territory to speak of anymore to have to first work to erode. These are again, situations that do not bear out trying to compare them.)

You are abandoning consistency with your own arguments to try and hold onto this point in the way that you are.

In fact, if you really want to bring up New York and treat these situations as comparable despite all the issues with doing so, what you are putting forward is that despite taking it completely on the teeth from the Sabbat but months prior, the Camarilla was so capable during that era that they could rally from their losses and rip one of the cities that was essentially one of their major capitals (and just an important city to hold overall), out of the sect.

Why again are you thus going on about the, once again completely theoretical idea of Camarilla Lasombra soloing elder Sabbat members when the Sabbat is weak as something that should stun the Camarilla for being so utterly beyond what they could do?

It's a non-sequitur, so long as you fail to notice Sabbat elders who survived the sect war, survived the sect war for a reason, and that reason certainly would not be for the Camarilla's lack of effort.

You want to talk about things being ignored yet you also want to ignore that the things they helped them survive the sect war, from having territory to shore up defense and position in, to being part of a strong sect with considerable resources and membership to draw on, to not being actively involved in expending themselves in a suicidal, unwinnable war that is literally eating them up from within, to not having huge portions of their sect having been recently killed off worldwide by hunters, are conditions that no longer exist for them. The idea that people trying to kill them now, would in no way have as hard a time as they would trying to kill them in times past is not something you can actually avoid. That you keep insisting you can avoid these details is again one of those things you complain about others doing, yet end up doing yourself in some kind of you gazed too long into the abyss of posts you feel are wrongly made, and the abyss gazed back into you. (To paraphrase Phil Ken Sebben as regards the abyss quote and Lasombra debates: "Ha ha! Topical!")

You are no different or better than what you are complaining about. Your efforts to insist otherwise only aggravate the similarities and take you further and further away from things like actual book content.

Well as you just so succinctly explained, who would be helping them? They lack their Sabbat resources, no Lasombra's going to trust another in this pursuit as it's every vampire for themselves, and the Camarilla certainly wouldn't be extending a helping hand -- least of all, for their being as depleted and diminished as the Sabbat.

That is, under typical circumstances. Because I have a distinct feeling you'll try to play off the pre-published story in which this happens as "the norm", despite arguing this entire time what happens in the pre-published story is wholly atypical and not reflective of the general situation writ large.

Unless you can give actual examples of these badass solo warfighting elder killers presenting staked elders they took out themselves to get into the Camarilla, one of us is talking about book content, and the other is going "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" You are now at the point of "just because you can give examples from actual published material and I can't, doesn't mean you're right".

[MarkK]

Y'know what, I'm going to be fair. We do see a Lasombra solo warfight killing a Sabbat elder in Chicago by Night in order to meet the demands of the deal. A Lasombra Cardinal no less. To the point that said Lasombra stakes and burns them to ash. So hey, it happened!

Of course, if we don't treat context as completely optional, the Lasombra we see doing that is Talley the Hound, who is himself a Lasombra elder held up as being of rarefied air in terms of his personal capacity and efficacy. He's so quality he was otherwise Vitel's right hand. He's part of the entire reason the deal with the Camarilla is able to go forward as far as his organizing it from above and laying the bloody, bloody groundwork for it.

And who the Lasombra boot from the clan, with him ending up blood hunted by the entire Camarilla, because he's an example that the clan are sacrificing legit resources they otherwise needed in order to make this deal happen. He's also the vampire another Lasombra tries to kill in a moment where he is weakened and not expecting to be turned on, and that vampire fails to do so. Talley escapes them.

When the one guy who actually does the thing that is being claimed will happen is 1) an over 600 year old 7th gen, blood potency 6 Lasombra noted as one of his clan's best operatives, 2) is kicked out of the Camarilla Lasombra and blood hunted, it for some reason, I couldn't tell you why, makes me dubious that there will be Camarilla Lasombra pulling off what he does as far as bringing death to who all ever in that way that he did. Especially when we see one of them outright fails to do what he did, his own childe no less.

(Also even Talley brought help just in case, the situation just treated him as not overly needing it for the Cardinal fight as far as the way it seems to be described. If you're going to tell me the Lasombra still have plenty of Talley's ilk, um... okay...)

[CTPhipps]

Y'know what, I'm going to be fair. We do see a Lasombra solo warfight killing a Sabbat elder in Chicago by Night in order to meet the demands of the deal. A Lasombra Cardinal no less. To the point that said Lasombra stakes and burns them to ash. So hey, it happened!

There's some funny things about the deal:

* Talley the Hound despite arranging all this gets targeted by a bunch of Lasombra. Which seems to be COMPLETELY SUICIDA given Talley is one of those rare Elders who loves battle.
* Talley apparently killed Lucita and I wonder if that was his planned "sacrifice."
* Carolina Valez is an "elder sacrifice" despite the fact she was Embraced in the 1950s.

I have to wonder what it was that got Talley screwed:

* Betraying Marcus Vitel for the Amis Nocti
* Killing Lucita, who was probably NOT the Regent (Polonia probably was) but damn close to it
* The fact that Talley is one of those Lasombra that the Camarilla WOULD think of as a die-hard Sabbat fanatic
* Some elders felt only a sacrifice like him would be able to get them refugee
* Some idiots felt they could take him despite being one of the deadliest killers on Earth

[monteparnas]

Just to remind you, it's not one Sabbat Elder not one Lasombra.

It doesn't matter. For each Lasombra to go to the Cam, a vampire older than them must be delivered to the Cam.

On a small scale this could be an interesting option for some situations. But on a large scale and for opening the door for defection this is ludicrous.

...and how do you feel about the events of 1405, when Gratiano, his followers, and some Assamites raided the Castle of Shadows, killing almost all the clan's elders and allegedly slaying its Antediluvian, with only one reported survivor? And after that, going across Lasombra domains offering the choice of "join or die"?

Was that feasible or reasonable? Was that the mark of a clan of social Darwinists, or desperate suicidals? Did the Lasombra accept such a stupid thing?

Were the Lasombra that survived the purge in sufficient numbers to call them at the end a clan? Were the elders slain in 1405 and beyond just waiting patiently to be killed?

Did the fact it happened and worked prove to you the Lasombra is a capable clan, or does it prove the writers had no idea what they were doing?

1- The events of 1405 were a coup preceded by thorough preparation, where Gratiano rallied allies from within and without, decided when, where and why attack, and the killing of those elders had a clear purpose for him, it were not the price the Tzimisce were asking to join their new club or something;

2- No one really knows what happened at the castle, even Gratiano's current generation is a secret, not a certainty. Or if he is really Gratiano, by the way, although I do think he is;

3- It shows much more Gratiano's success at a coup than anything about the clan as a whole;

4- The sheer lack of details on what happened there definitely proves the writers had no idea what they were doing.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________

Writing 101: you can put anything on paper. If you write that the Lasombra singlehandedly killed 99% of the Sabbat, the Lasombra killed 99% of the Sabbat. If you say the Amici Noctis have the Omnitrix, they have the Omnitrix. Whatever they publish is canon, I can't argue against that. I can argue the quality of their writing.

The Lasombra plot is bad. The Camarilla in V5 is badly written. The events are contrived, the characters are inconsistent with previous material, the story makes no sense to me. Those are the failures that matter. The writers will decide if this stupid plot will pay well for the Lasombra or not, and/or any one who runs a game with those plots will. How you interpret the stupidly written plot is up to you and won't change that it is stupidly written.

[MarkK]

Betraying Vitel wouldn't get Talley gone at by the Camarilla Lasombra who Vitel has no power over and is separate from, would be the thing.

I think ultimately it boils down to Talley is the arguably best way the would be Camarilla Lasombra can show they're genuinely serious about all this, even if said best way is a terrible, terrible choice. So terrible. I mean even aside from the loss of a basically irreplaceable operative level of things, yeah, Lasombra trying to claim his unlife are in for a ride.

So if I was going to pick the most logical feeling reasons, it's the "some elders felt only a sacrifice like him would be able to get them refuge" combined with the Camarilla probably going "yeah, see the sign over there? It says no Talleys."

I think considering Talley wiped out multiple Sabbat Lasombra he probably didn't see any of them as his personal sacrifice so much as his doing the job the Amici gave him to do (though I didn't think he killed Lucita? I guess I missed that one. I thought the Sabbat vamp on the cover of the book is supposed to be her or something?). Every one of those he took out is a "see? we killed that one, so let some of us in." that other Lasombra can point to.

And then he got the boot.

[Shakanaka]

The Lasombra plot is bad. The Camarilla in V5 is badly written. The events are contrived, the characters are inconsistent with previous material, the story makes no sense to me. Those are the failures that matter. The writers will decide if this stupid plot will pay well for the Lasombra or not, and/or any one who runs a game with those plots will. How you interpret the stupidly written plot is up to you and won't change that it is stupidly written.

I agree with all of this. I still standby the thought that this lazy route with the Lasombra was done to further sabotage the Sabbat from the Metaplot in general, as well as hamfist to shove the Lasombra unnaturally into the Camarilla... for whatever reason.

[archderd]

I agree with all of this. I still standby the thought that this lazy route with the Lasombra was done to further sabotage the Sabbat from the Metaplot in general, as well as hamfist to shove the Lasombra unnaturally into the Camarilla... for whatever reason.

wats probably the saddest part of it all is that you wouldn't really need to change the metaplot to make the lasombra as a cam clan work. lasombra anti-tribu have always been fairly powerfull individuals within the cam, the cam is making deals with the ashirra, a sect founded by a lasombra, and the sabbath is gone. this deal didn't need to exist for the lasombra to become a cam clan making it not just bad but also unnecessary

[Damian May]

The weirdest thing for me is that the Cam deal for the Lasombra is exactly the deal you'd offer if your intent was to utterly destroy the Lasombra as a Clan. A very large proportion of them have departed to die in hopeless battle, the Sabbat is essentially gone, they are at their lowest ebb, in order to acheive " safe " harbour they need to destroy the remaining Lasombra more powerful than them and when they've done this the less than a third of them that remain are now ensconced within the Camarilla in subordination without support or resources where they can be crushed essentially at leisure by their age old enemies.

[Ragged Robin]

I doubt the Camarilla would ask such a stupid thing. I doubt the Lasombra would accept such a stupid thing.

I got the impression it wasn't a sincere request and was more of implied rejection of overtures which was then portrayed as a dramatic 'gotcha' moment for the lasombra, since author clearly didn't understand the logistics of such an agreement.

As you said-bad writing.

[archderd]

I got the impression it wasn't a sincere request and was more of implied rejection of overtures which was then portrayed as a dramatic 'gotcha' moment for the lasombra, since author clearly didn't understand the logistics of such an agreement.

As you said-bad writing.

the lasombra deal:

ventrue: you can join after you go fuck yourselves
lasombra: with or without lube?

[CTPhipps]

Betraying Vitel wouldn't get Talley gone at by the Camarilla Lasombra who Vitel has no power over and is separate from, would be the thing.

Vitel is a Methusaleh. I have no doubt he has influence far beyond his domain.

[qupte]I think ultimately it boils down to Talley is the arguably best way the would be Camarilla Lasombra can show they're genuinely serious about all this, even if said best way is a terrible, terrible choice. So terrible. I mean even aside from the loss of a basically irreplaceable operative level of things, yeah, Lasombra trying to claim his unlife are in for a ride.[/quote]

I do think it nicely illustrates Talley's dedicated loyalty was a dumb-dumb philosophy.

For 600 years he was considered the perfect Lasombra and perfect Sabbat agent.

But if the two collide, he had to choose and there was no good answer.

Like Theo Bell and the Brujah/Camarilla.

So if I was going to pick the most logical feeling reasons, it's the "some elders felt only a sacrifice like him would be able to get them refuge" combined with the Camarilla probably going "yeah, see the sign over there? It says no Talleys."

I think considering Talley wiped out multiple Sabbat Lasombra he probably didn't see any of them as his personal sacrifice so much as his doing the job the Amici gave him to do (though I didn't think he killed Lucita? I guess I missed that one. I thought the Sabbat vamp on the cover of the book is supposed to be her or something?). Every one of those he took out is a "see? we killed that one, so let some of us in." that other Lasombra can point to.

And then he got the boot.

Talley's Loresheet:

Representing an assortment of powerful Lasombra,
Talley participates in talks tonight permitting Keepers into
the Camarilla’s ranks. Word is, he put the flame to Lucita
at the Camarilla’s command, and did so without hesitation.
Unfortunately for Talley, it seems he’s soon to be hung out to
dry by the very masters he’s served so diligently for centuries

Page 286, Chicago by Night.

So I wouldn't feel too bad for Talley as there's no way he did this for the Camarilla and didn't make a huge number of enemies. Mind you, Lucita is probably alive as she was well-liked by other developers and her returning is a good plot.

[CTPhipps]

the lasombra deal:

ventrue: you can join after you go fuck yourselves
lasombra: with or without lube?

I took it more as:

Ventrue: You are going to do what you were going to do anyway!

Lasombra: Excellent! I mean, nooo! Please don't throw me in the briar patch!

Ventrue: Oh, then welcome to the Ivory Tower.

*Lasombra helps themselves to taking over*

[MarkK]

Vitel is a Methusaleh. I have no doubt he has influence far beyond his domain.


I do think it nicely illustrates Talley's dedicated loyalty was a dumb-dumb philosophy.

For 600 years he was considered the perfect Lasombra and perfect Sabbat agent.

But if the two collide, he had to choose and there was no good answer.

Like Theo Bell and the Brujah/Camarilla.



Talley's Loresheet:

Representing an assortment of powerful Lasombra,
Talley participates in talks tonight permitting Keepers into
the Camarilla’s ranks. Word is, he put the flame to Lucita
at the Camarilla’s command, and did so without hesitation.
Unfortunately for Talley, it seems he’s soon to be hung out to
dry by the very masters he’s served so diligently for centuries

Page 286, Chicago by Night.

So I wouldn't feel too bad for Talley as there's no way he did this for the Camarilla and didn't make a huge number of enemies. Mind you, Lucita is probably alive as she was well-liked by other developers and her returning is a good plot.

Right, I've seen that, but "word is" isn't exactly concrete, particularly when like I said, there's also developer talk that the Sabbat cover vampire is Lucita. He has more explicit kills of Sabbat elders/leaders in that book is my note.

Otherwise, the stupidity of Talley's loyalty to his clan notwithstanding, the Camarilla Lasombra having to give him up is a significant ding to their operational capacity. But that's kind of the point. They're having to make significant sacrifices, not convenient sacrifices.

As far as Vitel reaching into the Camarilla/the Camarilla Lasombra to make them blood hunt Talley, it just doesn't really come off as viable. He's at loggerheads with the Camarilla, on top of every other issue. The book notes that the Amici acknowledge they're going to lose useful Lasombra. Talley's a glaring example (a stupid example, but an example nonetheless).

[MarkK]

I took it more as:

Ventrue: You are going to do what you were going to do anyway!

Lasombra: Excellent! I mean, nooo! Please don't throw me in the briar patch!

Ventrue: Oh, then welcome to the Ivory Tower.

*Lasombra helps themselves to taking over*

The book itself doesn't really present itself as supporting either your take or the one you're replying to.