Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[CTPhipps]

Right, I've seen that, but "word is" isn't exactly concrete, particularly when like I said, there's also developer talk that the Sabbat cover vampire is Lucita. He has more explicit kills of Sabbat elders/leaders in that book is my note.

Otherwise, the stupidity of Talley's loyalty to his clan notwithstanding, the Camarilla Lasombra having to give him up is a significant ding to their operational capacity. But that's kind of the point. They're having to make significant sacrifices, not convenient sacrifices.

As far as Vitel reaching into the Camarilla/the Camarilla Lasombra to make them blood hunt Talley, it just doesn't really come off as viable. He's at loggerheads with the Camarilla, on top of every other issue. The book notes that the Amici acknowledge they're going to lose useful Lasombra. Talley's a glaring example (a stupid example, but an example nonetheless).

Which cuts to the point, though.

1. Lucita was never going to join the Camarilla. After Moncada's death, Lucita went 100% all in to the Sabbat. So much so that Anatole and Beckett were like, "What the fuck is wrong with you?"

2. Taking down Lucita is something that the Amis Nocti and other parties would want because Lucita is a beloved important figure in the Sabbat.

3. Removing her is going to be a strategic choice because you know she would want to go after the defectors with a Brujah level of frenzy.

4. The Camarilla thinks its a "sacrifice" but really you don't want Lucita at your back.

5. And yes, she probably survived but a decade or so in torpor or being forced underground is not unlikely eitehr. Sort of like Vitel, it's hard to keep an ancient Lasombra down (and she's almost there).

[MarkK]

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to go after her, I'm just saying it came off as comparatively vague that it actually happened outside of rumour compared to a Cardinal explicitly described as burning to ash after losing a fight with Talley and getting staked, and Carolina Valez writing her own death note under Talley's gaze, as it were.

[Shakanaka]

*Lasombra helps themselves to taking over*

lolno

How can you still have bad takes on this, at this point? With the Lasombra so heavily disintegrated as Clan per the stipulations on how they must join it, the Lasombra is going to be essentially bloodline status by the time they've finished this forced self-genocide on themselves. Not only that, with so much of their Elders (who coincidentally all should be in Middle-East per the Beckoning nonsense, which makes me question how the Lasombra are completing their objectives demanded of the Camarilla to begin with) meeting Final Death, as a Clan they are going to lose a tons of resources, wealth, and valuable connections. Then from there, they are going to be the abject bottoms of the Camarilla organization with how they're being handled.

I wonder if this whole deal for the Lasombra to even get in, is just a rouse by the Venture to ensure the Lasombra are "defanged" so they can be easily controlled under the Ventures' heels. This isn't even accounting for how even more gimped the Lasombra is, when for some inane reason they've lost the ability to use most technology. The bane with having no reflection was a classic and didn't needed to be changed. It was moderately-to-high masquerade risky enough.

What's going on with the Lasombra is the opposite of Social Darwinism. It's just pure Foolish Darwinism.

[archderd]

I took it more as:

Ventrue: You are going to do what you were going to do anyway!

Lasombra: Excellent! I mean, nooo! Please don't throw me in the briar patch!

Ventrue: Oh, then welcome to the Ivory Tower.

*Lasombra helps themselves to taking over*

i ain't judging, if the lasombra wanted to go fuck themselves that's there buisness

[CTPhipps]

lolno

How can you still have bad takes on this, at this point? With the Lasombra so heavily disintegrated as Clan per the stipulations on how they must join it, the Lasombra is going to be essentially bloodline status by the time they've finished this forced self-genocide on themselves. Not only that, with so much of their Elders (who coincidentally all should be in Middle-East per the Beckoning nonsense, which makes me question how the Lasombra are completing their objectives demanded of the Camarilla to begin with) meeting Final Death, as a Clan they are going to lose a tons of resources, wealth, and valuable connections. Then from there, they are going to be the abject bottoms of the Camarilla organization with how they're being handled.

I wonder if this whole deal for the Lasombra to even get in, is just a rouse by the Venture to ensure the Lasombra are "defanged" so they can be easily controlled under the Ventures' heels. This isn't even accounting for how even more gimped the Lasombra is, when for some inane reason they've lost the ability to use most technology. The bane with having no reflection was a classic and didn't needed to be changed. It was moderately-to-high masquerade risky enough.

What's going on with the Lasombra is the opposite of Social Darwinism. It's just pure Foolish Darwinism.

Congratulations, you are now Lasombra chow.

It's not even close. You believed exactly what they wanted you to.



Seriously, the Lasombra are going to emerge from this stronger rather than weaker because they're going to immediately slide into the Camarilla's power structure and start chowing down. Being among the most ruthless and dangerous clans in a time of uncertainty, they're going to thrive when everyone else is weak.

Mind you, I assume you think the Lasombra are going to be taking the majority of damage here from their Civil War and I find that to be silly. The Lasombra don't have to kill THEIR Elders to defect and there's a bunch of Tzimisce and Antitribu to die for them as well. That's assuming that they automatically do as Kevin Jackson asks for other cities as we know they don't.

Besides the Lasombra are no worse off than the Hecata, Tremere, and other clans that have taken a pretty hard knock. I've already stated that both of those also are stronger rather than weaker for what happened to them.

[Shakanaka]

But this whole entire thread, we've already gone through why none of what is happening with the Lasombra makes no sense. Nothing about what the Lasombra is doing is planned.

lol

[CTPhipps]

But this whole entire thread, we've already gone through why none of what is happening with the Lasombra makes no sense. Nothing about what the Lasombra is doing is planned.

lol

Except it was very much planned by the Amis Noctis and has worked out fine from what we've seen in the video games as well as the supplements from Onyx Path.

Or do you mean in the Dolyeist sense?

In which case, I'm glad the Lasombra are not just in the Sabbat because the Sabbat is routinely portrayed as a bunch of keystone cops who are rarely anything other than Orcs in the setting.

Whatever the case, I think it was the Lasombra making the best out of a bad situation.

[archderd]

Whatever the case, I think it was the Lasombra making the best out of a bad situation.

i think they're just badly writen

[CTPhipps]

Well I think I've said all I can about the subject. Now for the REAL subject: WHY DID THE CAMARILLA KICK OUT THE BRUJAH!

[Damian May]

But this whole entire thread, we've already gone through why none of what is happening with the Lasombra makes no sense. Nothing about what the Lasombra is doing is planned.

lol

I'm getting flashes of the Black Knight from Monty Python at this point.

[MarkK]

Congratulations, you are now Lasombra chow.

It's not even close. You believed exactly what they wanted you to.



Seriously, the Lasombra are going to emerge from this stronger rather than weaker because they're going to immediately slide into the Camarilla's power structure and start chowing down. Being among the most ruthless and dangerous clans in a time of uncertainty, they're going to thrive when everyone else is weak.

Mind you, I assume you think the Lasombra are going to be taking the majority of damage here from their Civil War and I find that to be silly. The Lasombra don't have to kill THEIR Elders to defect and there's a bunch of Tzimisce and Antitribu to die for them as well. That's assuming that they automatically do as Kevin Jackson asks for other cities as we know they don't.

Besides the Lasombra are no worse off than the Hecate, Tremere, and other clans that have taken a pretty hard knock. I've already stated that both of those also are stronger rather than weaker for what happened to them.

Okay, especially for this one after multiple posts noting content from Chicago by Night alone that doesn't agree with your take, you can replace the word Lasombra with Ventrue for the way you talk about the Lasombra clan and its unstoppable ultra competence and your posts are pretty much the mirror image of a different fellow's posts as far as interacting with the given book content.

But all that aside?

The idea that the Tremere, splintered across multiple houses and sects, no longer able to do things like full clan involved pyramid rituals that they once could, and having lost their major center of power are stronger for what happened to them is a really odd way to look at things.

The Hecata are only stronger in the sense that all the once hunted, hidden, or otherwise minor bloodlines that combined to form the Hecata have undergone a huge jump in power. The Giovanni, once a distinct clan of their own, have undergone a huge decrease in power, even by the simple fact of they now have to share and acknowledge it with a big ol pile of not the Giovanni. So that is some straight up "from a certain point of view" stuff.

[AnubisXy]

Seriously, the Lasombra are going to emerge from this stronger rather than weaker because they're going to immediately slide into the Camarilla's power structure and start chowing down. Being among the most ruthless and dangerous clans in a time of uncertainty, they're going to thrive when everyone else is weak.

Again, I have trouble believing that everyone in the Camarilla is just going to open all of the doors and let the Lasombra defectors waltz in and make themselves at home. It doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't keep a close eye on them for some time and generally keep them away from the levers of power until the Lasombra defectors have been able to prove that they really are defectors and that their loyalty really is to the Camarilla. And for vampires, "some time" would probably be decades or even a century.

[CTPhipps]

Okay, especially for this one after multiple posts noting content from Chicago by Night alone that doesn't agree with your take, you can replace the word Lasombra with Ventrue for the way you talk about the Lasombra clan and its unstoppable ultra competence and your posts are pretty much the mirror image of a different fellow's posts as far as interacting with the given book content.

But all that aside?

I mean, I choose the Lasombra over the Ventrue every single time. They're not as cool as the Tzimisce (Old Clan especially) but I admit to being a total Lasombra fanboy.

No denial whatsoever I give the Lasombra victory over the Ventrue 9:10.

Even then, I know they had to make this deal under bad circumstances. The Antediluvian is back, the Gehenna Crusade is going horribly (even if they're winning), and the Second Inquisition has their number.

The idea that the Tremere, splintered across multiple houses and sects, no longer able to do things like full clan involved pyramid rituals that they once could, and having lost their major center of power are stronger for what happened to them is a really odd way to look at things.

MyWifeIsScary and I have had that argument multiple times but I've always felt that the Tremere Pyramid of Power has been its biggest weakness. It is good for the Council of Seven but terrible for the Clan because it prevents it from expanding and keeps them all blood bound to the Seven. With the Council of Seven destroyed, the Tremere can now spread out among the sects and grow in different weird directions that they were previously all under the thumb of the Elders before.

Less a Pyramid and more a spider-web.

It's good for the Clan and much of the same reason why I feel the Lasombra benefit from this because the Clan is no longer limited to one sect.

[archderd]

Well I think I've said all I can about the subject. Now for the REAL subject: WHY DID THE CAMARILLA KICK OUT THE BRUJAH!

same reason the lasombra joined the cam: bad writing

[MarkK]

and I have had that argument multiple times but I've always felt that the Tremere Pyramid of Power has been its biggest weakness. It is good for the Council of Seven but terrible for the Clan because it prevents it from expanding and keeps them all blood bound to the Seven. With the Council of Seven destroyed, the Tremere can now spread out among the sects and grow in different weird directions that they were previously all under the thumb of the Elders before.

Less a Pyramid and more a spider-web.

My problem with that is they've had a demonstrable power hit. One of the highest cards the Tremere could play in the Jyhad was their ability to bust out group ritual nonsense and to threaten that they could. It was pretty much their nuclear weapon as far as a "don't mess with that country past a point of no return, it has nuclear weapons" sort of deterrent to other clans. That sort of thing is really only viable for a strictly knit together clan with a strong hierarchy, which they no longer are.

The other thing they've lost by fragmenting is the ability for magical knowledge to spread and be refined and researched across an entire clan's knowledge base. Fractious, at odds, and out of regular clan wide communication, they can no longer do that.

Those are two really huge things to lose.