Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[CTPhipps]

My problem with that is they've had a demonstrable power hit. One of the highest cards the Tremere could play in the Jyhad was their ability to bust out group ritual nonsense and to threaten that they could. It was pretty much their nuclear weapon as far as a "don't mess with that country past a point of no return, it has nuclear weapons" sort of deterrent to other clans. That sort of thing is really only viable for a strictly knit together clan with a strong hierarchy, which they no longer are.

The other thing they've lost by fragmenting is the ability for magical knowledge to spread and be refined and researched across an entire clan's knowledge base. Fractious, at odds, and out of regular clan wide communication, they can no longer do that.

Those are two really huge things to lose.

But well worth it as a trade off.

The Seven were the one overt weakness of the Tremere and made them easily attackable as we saw. It's also why Saulot/The White Worm/Kupala/Whatever was going to be able to destroy the Clan or take it over.

Destroying Vienna's Chantry liberates the Clan from a central overt authority.

same reason the lasombra joined the cam: bad writing

Mind you, I have always felt that the Anarchs were hurt by the fact the Camarilla acted like they were an opposition party versus people who wanted to murder them. It made the Camarilla look stupid and the Anarchs look ineffectual.

The Brujah were a big part of that.

Now the Brujah don't look like the losers they did before and the Camarilla like morons for tolerating the Anarchs in their ranks.

[CTPhipps]

The Brujah Exile

The Camarilla has always looked like a bunch of complete losers for their treatment of the Anarchs and essentially tolerating terrorists and revolutionaries within their ranks. The Anarchs are an existential threat to the Camarilla and have repeatedly shown themselves to be someone that will eventually destroy the Camarilla. Tolerating them because of the clause in the Convention of Thorns was a retcon designed to explain how the Camarilla could be so blindingly stupid.

There have always been Brujah who weren't Anarchs, though. The Critiases and other people who think the Camarilla is the way to go. It makes sense for them to be a part of the Camarilla, However, the depiction of the majority of the Anarchs is that they are products of the Modern Era and do not want to go with the feudalism of the Old World. By the time the Camarilla was formed, they were already slowly starting to bring about the end of absolute monarchy and aristocracy.

Essentially, the Camarilla has always been stuck with a Clan that is committed to the destruction of the very organization that it is supposedly a part of. The Camarilla for whatever reason was depicted as too weak to root out this disease or unwilling to do so, which makes them seem like they were fools. Some people even defined the Brujah as "loyal opposition" which makes the Anarchs look like fools because the opposition of the Brujah should be to hack the head off the Prince, not kiss the ring.

Yes, both sides were willing to team up when the Sabbat came knocking but that was ever an alliance of conveinance.

I think the Brujah being cast out because of Theo Bell's betrayal makes a lot more sense than Xavier's choice because it is the Inner Council greatly overreacting, the Inner Council offending the Brujah remaining, and also the Brujah getting an opportunity to form their own sect.

[MarkK]

The Seven were the one overt weakness of the Tremere and made them easily attackable as we saw. It's also why Saulot/The White Worm/Kupala/Whatever was going to be able to destroy the Clan or take it over.

As far as Saulot's noted plan, wacky though it was, he'd already got what he wanted out of the Tremere really. His presumed death for a good long while, eliminating most of his previous clan without looking like he did it, and Tremere's body for whatever reason. The Tremere clan themselves were something of a bonus to do further Jyhad moves through when not wrestling with Tremere for control of said body.

And again, for all that the Seven were an attack point on the Tremere, they were also a focal point the clan's magic could be coalesced around, in some cases literally. That they'd managed to keep going just fine with the structure they had for nearly a thousand years speaks to that it wasn't that overt a weakness. The Second Inquisition rocked everyone in the vampiric world up down and all around the town, regardless of clan structure or sect structure (to the point that it feels like it makes no sense that vampires even still exist in VtM now, but that's a different discussion).

Destroying Vienna's Chantry liberates the Clan from a central overt authority.

We're going to do a life analogy again. So as noted, I hate my university. But I can acknowledge it has, in part through its resources and concentration of studies and ability to apply them, done important global work in the fields it focuses on. If tomorrow the entire campus burnt to the ground, its governing bodies all died, and its professors and researchers were scattered to the four winds, said staff would not in any way be able to perform on their own or in scattered groups like they are able to with the university to be part of.

Sometimes a central overt authority is a good thing.

While I'm there, the centralized strong unity of the Tremere is one of the things that kept them from being wiped out during the Dark Medieval despite how many groups got really keen on wanting to wipe out the Tremere (from the Order of Hermes to the Tzimisce to various chunks of Nosferatu and Gangrel)

[MyWifeIsScary]

Thaumaturges are basically very attractive targets because it's very easy for lazy "practical" vampires to enslave or steal from hard working thaumaturges who are a prestation mine. Thus Thaumaturges have two choices

A: Hide.
B: Band together and pool resources in an organization powerful enough to warn off all enemies.

The Assamites and settites are more A with a bit of B. The Tremere went nearly all-in on B, so weakening the pyramid is nothing but bad for them. Splitting into multiple houses denies them B but they're not gaining anymore A so... it's a dumb move unless you plan to breed like rabits or organize the schism so that it goes off in a clean and optimum manner.

[Ragged Robin]

I mean the closest irl equivalent to the tremere collapse is the 3rd century crisis were roman imperial authority imploded, was balkanised suffered massive infrastructural damage and eventually gave way to more oppressive theocratic monarchy which was crippled by said crisis The sudden collapse of large centralised powers doesn't typically benefit its subject even if the system is oppressive. Theirs no real historical or in setting reason to presume the Tremere benefit from the collapse of the pyramid.

Their is no equivalent were to the lasombras situation. Since no organization has ever decapitated itself then surrendered to their primary enemy then asked to be king. The closest I can think of is quisling or vichey governments in ww2.

[CTPhipps]

I mean the closest irl equivalent to the tremere collapse is the 3rd century crisis were roman imperial authority imploded, was balkanised suffered massive infrastructural damage and eventually gave way to more oppressive theocratic monarchy which was crippled by said crisis The collapse of large centralised powers doesn't typically benefit its subject even if the system is oppressive. Theirs no real historical or in setting reason to presume the Tremere benefit from the collapse of the pyramid.

Their is no equivalent were to the lasombras situation. Since no organization has ever decapitated itself then surrendered to their primary enemy then asked to be king. The closest I can think of is quisling or vichey governments in ww2.

Weird, because I was thinking of the fall of the Soviet Union and the liberation of a good chunk of Eastern Europe.

And a very easy argument to make is House Ipsissmus and House Carna certainly view the fall of the Tremere Council of Seven to be a good thing because otherwise they'd be dead. Certain House Goratrix is benefiting in the fact that they're now being led directly by the Tremere Antediluvian (in disguise).

The only people suffering from the Fall of the Tremere are the Loyalists.

Which is probably, yes, more than half of the Clan. Even then, though, the individual Tremere lords and Regents will be able to expand their power on their own merits.

[Ragged Robin]

Weird, because I was thinking of the fall of the Soviet Union and the liberation of a good chunk of Eastern Europe.

That's not even close to an equivalent.

[Ragged Robin]

Uh, history is full of people switching sides in wartime. Sometimes to their regret, most times to winning. The Italians moving from the Axis to the Allies to getting conquered by the Germans only to switch back to the Allies is one example. Here's Sabaton's THE LAST BATTLE where the German Army and Allies fought together to wipe out an SS unit.

It's bizarre to equate the Sabbat with anyone but the Nazis as well.

"Oooo, the murderous psychotic blood cult that uses the vast majority of its ranks as cannon fodder was betrayed!"

Really?

Neither are those.

[MyWifeIsScary]

The fall of the USSR was an absolute shitshow and it took a decade for wild dogs to disapear from the streets and for common people to go back to eating more than just potatoes. "shock therapy" ruined people. Sudden liberalization led to a hell of corruption and crime. The liberalization of eastern europe was a mess that set us back decades and it would be a disaster for vampires to emulate it.

[CTPhipps]

The fall of the USSR was an absolute shitshow and it took a decade for wild dogs to disapear from the streets and for common people to go back to eating more than just potatoes. "shock therapy" ruined people. Sudden liberalization led to a hell of corruption and crime. The liberalization of eastern europe was a mess that set us back decades and it would be a disaster for vampires to emulate it.

And still, you have people begging to join NATO out of fear of being made part of the Russian Federation. No one's saying the Tremere didn't get a serious kick in the gut, I'm just saying plenty of them prefer it to being blood bound expendable pawns.

The thing about the Lasombra and Tremere is that it's absolutely 100% great if you're at the top of the pile.

But that gives no reason for the people at the bottom or middle to support the people at the top. Because when you're immortal, you're never going to let alone else up.

[Sergeant Brother]

*Sigh*

The Tremere have been one of my favorite Clans since the early 90’s and I always liked their unity and organizational structure. I liked the Council of Seven and the Vienna Chantry.

So it makes me sad hearing about the changes to the Clan, it is a major hurdle for me in getting interested in V5.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Nah that's a croc. The Pyramid offers protection and learning materials for those below. In honesty, most Tremere are going to be happy to be apprentices and don't really look towards becoming a Lord or higher because that just sounds like dangerous work that takes you away from your research and all the stuff you've been looking after.

As for the Lasombra, their structure doesn't really exist beyond "Protect the Brand" which, y'know, would go to shit given the V5 deal.

[CTPhipps]

*Sigh*

The Tremere have been one of my favorite Clans since the early 90’s and I always liked their unity and organizational structure. I liked the Council of Seven and the Vienna Chantry.

So it makes me sad hearing about the changes to the Clan, it is a major hurdle for me in getting interested in V5.

I feel like it was always strange that there was no resistance within the Tremere.

It's a Gothic Punk game and they were the ones in most need of people rising up. So, I'm glad that we now have a lot more options for Tremere internal struggle and resistance.

Nah that's a croc. The Pyramid offers protection and learning materials for those below. In honesty, most Tremere are going to be happy to be apprentices and don't really look towards becoming a Lord or higher because that just sounds like dangerous work that takes you away from your research and all the stuff you've been looking after.

The Camarilla and establishment really are the best place to be in your games. Huh?

As for the Lasombra, their structure doesn't really exist beyond "Protect the Brand" which, y'know, would go to shit given the V5 deal.

It's hard to take a clan seriously as subtle masters of manipulation and secretive puppet masters when they have guys running around with chainsaws and hockey masks. That's all I'm saying.

[Sergeant Brother]

I feel like it was always strange that there was no resistance within the Tremere.

It's a Gothic Punk game and they were the ones in most need of people rising up. So, I'm glad that we now have a lot more options for Tremere internal struggle and resistance.

Why would there need to be more resistance within the Tremere? When you’re embraced as a Tremere it’s like a combination of joining the Illuminati and going to Hogwart’s. You’re immortal, a member of a world dominating secret society of super powered wizards, with a huge institution that you can work within and learn from, plus you’re hated by people outside of this institution.

Who would want to fight against that? With how selective the Tremere are with their embraces, I can’t imagine they would embrace anybody who is enough of an imbecile to fight against that, especially when the Pyramid has so many good resources available - like protections, connections, and magical knowledge.

I mean, people can always play rebel Tremere, but there was never a need of rebel movements in the Clan, they were unique in their unity, especially when you had rebels in every other Clan. Even if they wanted to introduce a resistance group, they didn’t need to destroy the Pyramid and Inner Council to do that.

[Ragged Robin]

The fall of the USSR was an absolute shitshow and it took a decade for wild dogs to disapear from the streets and for common people to go back to eating more than just potatoes. "shock therapy" ruined people. Sudden liberalization led to a hell of corruption and crime. The liberalization of eastern europe was a mess that set us back decades and it would be a disaster for vampires to emulate it.

The Soviet Union was also dissolved after a long period of decline and another government/s were implimented By contrast the Tremere were decapitated after centuries of consistent effective expansion and no centralised leadership or organization has replaced it. Furthermore they ate surrounded by enemies and rivals who have waited centuries for this moment. The only Real simulailrity is the balkanization aspects which as you mentioned were a shitshow of horror.

The lasombra if anything have it worse since they don't even have the numbers the tremere had now.