Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[CTPhipps]

Yeah somewhat. 5th edition has really changed the fundamental idea of the Camarilla. It's not longer an inclusive organization that at least claims to represent all vampires everywhere, even if the reality is rather different. Now it comes off as more of an exclusive organization where even vampires who want to join get turned away. The whole thing with the Setites being officially refused membership membership in the Camarilla has really changed how the Camarilla operates and I'm still trying to get a handle on it in the new edition.

I was okay with this because I felt it was a reaction to the Second Inquisition (as well as an attempt to make it more like the Invictus--I freely admit it). The Camarilla cutting the Anarchs and most of the poorer vampires of their ranks loose is pretty much what happened during the First Inquisition.

From the perspective of the Elders, if the Masquerade is already half-broken, is there any reason looking after the people who don't benefit them?

It's not like the Camarilla really ideologically cared about 90% of vampiredom. It was a claim of authority.

As for refusing the Setites, I am wondering if I actually saw this or not but I think it was because the Assamites basically said, "It's them or us?"

[AnubisXy]

Which is funny because the Promise would mean the Giovanni are the only non-Camarilla vampires in the world.

The Anarchs and Sabbat are just vampires in insurrection.

Yeah somewhat. 5th edition has really changed the fundamental idea of the Camarilla. It's not longer an inclusive organization that at least claims to represent all vampires everywhere, even if the reality is rather different. Now it comes off as more of an exclusive organization where even vampires who want to join get turned away. The whole thing with the Setites being officially refused membership membership in the Camarilla has really changed how the Camarilla operates and I'm still trying to get a handle on it in the new edition.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Yes, I think that’s true. Honestly, the independent Clans weren’t very thought out.

Initially, yes, but they've evolved so wonderfully.
The issue is that the Independent clans double as cults. FoS? Cult. Ravnos? Even the moderate Paradox paths are pretty whack. Assamites? A cult that scares other vampires. Giovanni? They're a family... and a cult. Really, they're sects, and outsiders can join the FoS, Path of Paradox, Assamites and to a limited extent, the Giovanni. Now, that itself is not too much of an issue; The Tremere are a sect within a sect, but the beliefs of the Assamites and Ravnos are dangerous to the Camarilla, The FoS are a masquerade risk (and might just try to convince the rest of the Cam to destroy the world) and the Giovanni...

The Giovanni would make more sense if the Camarilla sheltered Capadocians (they didn't) or some big names want to punish the Giovanni for the purge (quite likely, the Tremere got off light, but they also had about 500 years for things to cool off before the sect was formed, the Cappadocian purge happened at around the same time as the Cam was formed, it was fresh) .

V5 decided to shake things up so they could depart from the old conventions, they just did it in some ways I disagree with. They had to change something though, they couldn’t just make V5 into another V20, so they were in a tough position.

Like they could've... streamlined the combat rules, or released some small setting changes that everyone could dig; Anarch sorcery becoming more prevailent, the Tremere being supressed slightly, the Lasombra antitribu increasing in numbers, the Sabbat and anarchs losing territories, the Gangrel rejoining the Cam, the Schismatics trying to join despite resistance and issues, some Camarilla members advocating for Vicissitude to not be violently suppressed in the Cam, and a reaction to that.

Vampires are slow to change. We don't need a soap opera, it's ok to have the status quo work for a while; it gives us much more room to work on intimate developments in our own cities without being overshadowed by international bullshit. The only big thing we really needed was a book where the subordinate Giovanni families axe the leadership of the main family and then go their seperate ways.

[Sergeant Brother]

Honestly, how much is a pack being wasted trying to hunt Gangrel down in a small town?

I mean, I think we sometimes underestimate how hard it would be to find vampires if you didn't have clues to look. ASHES TO ASHES was a module based on how Neonates have no idea how to find their fellow vampires, let alone the Prince.

It would be just about impossible for a pack to to hunt down Gangrel in the woods or small towns. A pack might kill a Gangrel if they randomly came across one or if the Gangrel entered a Sabbat area, but otherwise it’s pretty unlikely. A Gangrel who wants to avoid conflict would be good at doing it.

As you say, it’s probably hard to find vampires in general. I suppose in some cities you have a scourge going around using Auspex looking for strange vampires, but in general vampires can probably wander around in enemy territory and survive for quite a while.

It’s probably standard procedure to get contact information for local vampires through some sort of networking before entering a city.

[CTPhipps]

Yes, that would have made way more sense. If the Gangrel wanted out of the war or even wanted to have dealings with Sabbat, then leaving the Camarilla could have facilitated that. Then that would have made more sense. Then again, they could still have avoided the conflict by hiding out in woods and small towns, individually would still have been vulnerable to Sabbat packs, and are still too individualistic to all decide to do that at once. I might see the issue is that they would officially remain in the Camarilla but unofficially ignore the sect.

Honestly, how much is a pack being wasted trying to hunt Gangrel down in a small town?

I mean, I think we sometimes underestimate how hard it would be to find vampires if you didn't have clues to look. ASHES TO ASHES was a module based on how Neonates have no idea how to find their fellow vampires, let alone the Prince.

[Sergeant Brother]

Really, I'd argue the big deal of the Independent vs. Camarilla thing is the fact that in 1999 the Sabbat was waging a war over the entirety of the East Coast. Being a direct target of the Sabbat seemed like it might have been a thing the Gangrel would worry about.

They could have (but didn't) make the Gangrel "leave" because they were signing a non-aggression pact with the Sabbat.

No, it was all about the Antediluvians supposedly, which I admit makes absolutely no sense.

Yes, that would have made way more sense. If the Gangrel wanted out of the war or even wanted to have dealings with Sabbat, then leaving the Camarilla could have facilitated that. Then that would have made more sense. Then again, they could still have avoided the conflict by hiding out in woods and small towns, individually would still have been vulnerable to Sabbat packs, and are still too individualistic to all decide to do that at once. I might see the issue is that they would officially remain in the Camarilla but unofficially ignore the sect.

[CTPhipps]

Isn't that how it's always worked? The Camarilla always claimed that every vampire on the planet was a member of the organization (something that got a chuckle out of the Sabbat). So technically any vampire is a Camarilla vampire. The reality, of course, is that that would only apply to a Camarilla city, but any vampire who was member of the Independent clans should technically be treated the same as any official member. That said, people who don't officially join the sect probably have a somewhat harder time getting into Elysium and will find themselves more at the mercy of the local Sherriff. If the Prince or members of the Primogen decide they doesn't much like you, you're probably fucked since you don't have any clanmates who can try and help you out.

That's mostly what I recall from the Players Guide to the Camarilla where it discussed how members of other clans (Independents, Tzimisci, etc) slotted into the Camarilla.

Which is funny because the Promise would mean the Giovanni are the only non-Camarilla vampires in the world.

The Anarchs and Sabbat are just vampires in insurrection.

[CTPhipps]

For the Gangrel, it seems to me that they get the best of both worlds, because if they want to be free of Camarilla laws or obligations, all they have to do is leave the cities and they are free of the Camarilla. If they need to enter a Camarilla city then membership grants some degree of rights and respect. If they need help, they might be able to get it. Even being able to leave the Camarilla suggests a much higher of unity and organization than I ever would have expected from the Gangrel. Joining the Anarchs as a Clan, as a unified political body not just dissidents within the Camarilla, seems even more unlikely.

Really, I'd argue the big deal of the Independent vs. Camarilla thing is the fact that in 1999 the Sabbat was waging a war over the entirety of the East Coast. Being a direct target of the Sabbat seemed like it might have been a thing the Gangrel would worry about.

They could have (but didn't) make the Gangrel "leave" because they were signing a non-aggression pact with the Sabbat.

No, it was all about the Antediluvians supposedly, which I admit makes absolutely no sense.

[AnubisXy]

Yeah. I think it's long overdue too. The whole "what Clan is or isn't part of the Camarilla" is a kind of silly line in the sand. If a Giovanni is living in, say, Chicago and he's subject to the laws of the Prince then isn't he a member of the Camarilla?

Isn't that how it's always worked? The Camarilla always claimed that every vampire on the planet was a member of the organization (something that got a chuckle out of the Sabbat). So technically any vampire is a Camarilla vampire. The reality, of course, is that that would only apply to a Camarilla city, but any vampire who was member of the Independent clans should technically be treated the same as any official member. That said, people who don't officially join the sect probably have a somewhat harder time getting into Elysium and will find themselves more at the mercy of the local Sherriff. If the Prince or members of the Primogen decide they doesn't much like you, you're probably fucked since you don't have any clanmates who can try and help you out.

That's mostly what I recall from the Players Guide to the Camarilla where it discussed how members of other clans (Independents, Tzimisci, etc) slotted into the Camarilla.

[Sergeant Brother]

I think the question is not about the Gangrel specifically but how much you're getting out from putting in general.

If you're Pro-Camarilla, then the Camarilla being left by any clan is a stupid idea and they look like idiots. It's all benefits and few downsides.

If you're Anti-Camarilla, then the Camarilla is just a leech (like a vampire!) that will use up its members for the benefit of the 1% of the 1%.

That will impact your view as a Storyteller and Player.

It also will tell you whether you think the conflict between the Anarch vs. Camarilla versus Sabbat vs. Camarilla.

Well, that brings up an interesting question. What are the pros and cons of belonging to the Camarilla? Or the Sabbat too for that matter, but their pros and cons are more obvious.

One thing to keep in mind is that independence doesn’t protect you from a sect or members of that sect. If you’re from a neutral Clan or Bloodline and you enter a Camarilla city, you are still just as subject to the Camarilla laws and the vampires ruling that city as any other vampire there. When the Sheriff tells you that he wants you to come along for questions, telling him that you’re a “sovereign citizen” isn’t going to work any better than does for humans in real life. If you waltz into a Sabbat city and you’re independent then they can kill you and drink your soul and they don’t care.

So being independent doesn’t exempt you from anybody’s laws or protect you from anybody’s thugs. It might, though, allow you to make deals and have business with both sects. A Settite could sell information to a Sabbat priest on one day and a Camarilla prince on the next and that kind of relationship might be the most profitable. If the Settite is in the Camarilla then it would be harder and more dangerous to deal with the Sabbat.

If, for some reason, the Settites decide to wage war on the Gangrel, the rest of the Camarilla will protect them. That is a big advantage. If they’re independent, they have to face their enemies alone. On the other hand, if another Camarilla Clan (or the Camarilla in general) comes under attack then you might be expected to come to its defense. This is where things get a bit hazy, because I don’t know if the Camarilla or it’s leaders have the ability to draft vampires into service or even to tax them or make them participate in the defense of the Camarilla. Presumably, being members of the Camarilla entitles vampires to certain rights or protections, as minimal as they may be.

For the Gangrel, it seems to me that they get the best of both worlds, because if they want to be free of Camarilla laws or obligations, all they have to do is leave the cities and they are free of the Camarilla. If they need to enter a Camarilla city then membership grants some degree of rights and respect. If they need help, they might be able to get it. Even being able to leave the Camarilla suggests a much higher of unity and organization than I ever would have expected from the Gangrel. Joining the Anarchs as a Clan, as a unified political body not just dissidents within the Camarilla, seems even more unlikely.

[CTPhipps]

Yeah, moving away from a strict in or out of sect attitude would probably be better, maybe with a few exceptions.

Whether or not your Clan has a Justicar or Inner Circle member might matter to your typical Chicago vampire, because it determines how much discrimination a vampire can be subject to on the basis of Clan. If you’re in an official Camarilla Clan with a Justicar then a prince probably won’t just be able to have you killed (at least openly) just because he doesn’t like your Clan. If not… then maybe he can give the order to kill you.

Which is why no Clan is going to want to leave the Camarilla and become independent like the Gangrel. Because even if you claim independence you still have to obey the the Camarilla’s and prince’s rules in a Camarilla city, but when you’re a Camarilla member, there will be rules about how they can treat you as well.

I think the question is not about the Gangrel specifically but how much you're getting out from putting in general.

If you're Pro-Camarilla, then the Camarilla being left by any clan is a stupid idea and they look like idiots. It's all benefits and few downsides.

If you're Anti-Camarilla, then the Camarilla is just a leech (like a vampire!) that will use up its members for the benefit of the 1% of the 1%.

That will impact your view as a Storyteller and Player.

It also will tell you whether you think the conflict between the Anarch vs. Camarilla versus Sabbat vs. Camarilla.

[Sergeant Brother]

Yeah. I think it's long overdue too. The whole "what Clan is or isn't part of the Camarilla" is a kind of silly line in the sand. If a Giovanni is living in, say, Chicago and he's subject to the laws of the Prince then isn't he a member of the Camarilla?

Does being on the inner council or having a Justicar matter to anyone but the specific vampires themselves?

Yeah, moving away from a strict in or out of sect attitude would probably be better, maybe with a few exceptions.

Whether or not your Clan has a Justicar or Inner Circle member might matter to your typical Chicago vampire, because it determines how much discrimination a vampire can be subject to on the basis of Clan. If you’re in an official Camarilla Clan with a Justicar then a prince probably won’t just be able to have you killed (at least openly) just because he doesn’t like your Clan. If not… then maybe he can give the order to kill you.

Which is why no Clan is going to want to leave the Camarilla and become independent like the Gangrel. Because even if you claim independence you still have to obey the the Camarilla’s and prince’s rules in a Camarilla city, but when you’re a Camarilla member, there will be rules about how they can treat you as well.

[CTPhipps]

V5 decided to shake things up so they could depart from the old conventions, they just did it in some ways I disagree with. They had to change something though, they couldn’t just make V5 into another V20, so they were in a tough position.

Yeah. I think it's long overdue too. The whole "what Clan is or isn't part of the Camarilla" is a kind of silly line in the sand. If a Giovanni is living in, say, Chicago and he's subject to the laws of the Prince then isn't he a member of the Camarilla?

Does being on the inner council or having a Justicar matter to anyone but the specific vampires themselves?

[Sergeant Brother]

Pure Speculation: The Promise is a post-facto justification for why the Giovanni aren't part of the Camarilla.

Mind you, I could see why the Camarilla would be nervous about ANOTHER bunch of necromancer diablerists joining. I could see the Tremere as the primary voice against them.

Yes, I think that’s true. Honestly, the independent Clans weren’t very thought out. It was like they had a few hours before the books were going to go to print and they needed to come up with ideas for the independents. Thieving Gypsies whose flaw is being criminals, Muslim assassins, Thulsa Doom, and incestuous Necromancer Venicean banker family. Actually, the Giovanni are the most creative, three dimensional, original, and playable idea there. Maybe better suited for a bloodline than a Clan, but not a narrow ethnic stereotype even if they get painted as an Italian Mafia family slightly.

A number of the independent or Sabbat Clans released later could have had a place in the Camarilla but they decided to say that there are none, rather than providing examples of what those Clans members could do in the Camarilla.

V5 decided to shake things up so they could depart from the old conventions, they just did it in some ways I disagree with. They had to change something though, they couldn’t just make V5 into another V20, so they were in a tough position.

[CTPhipps]

Yeah, I’m not a fan of the Promise, it actually doesn’t make sense to me. But, it has been a part of canon for a long time so I figured I’d go with it.

Yeah, I think that making the Hecata was a missed opportunity considering all of the various Necromancer bloodlines out there. Making the Hecata might be good for a Necromancer chronicle, but most players aren’t going to want to play that. They would rather incorporate a Necromancer character in a a Camarilla, Sabbat, or Anarch game. I think it would have facilitated such play better if they had decided on certain bloodlines to join certain sects.

Of course, people can always play a Necromancer in a (for example) Camarilla game anyway, but either the ST needs to hand wave away the political tension or your character is going to be in the outsider role.

Pure Speculation: The Promise is a post-facto justification for why the Giovanni aren't part of the Camarilla.

Mind you, I could see why the Camarilla would be nervous about ANOTHER bunch of necromancer diablerists joining. I could see the Tremere as the primary voice against them.