Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[Chris24601]

Tzimisce started with a focus on fleshcrafting. Vicissitude was described in the 1st Edition Storyteller's Handbook in 1992 (at least the first three flesh-shaping levels were, anyway). Like it or lump it, Tzimisce was the source of mad-science-body-horror for the game, much like Gangrel was the source of shapeshifter vampires, and Toreador was the source of flamboyant Rician vampires, etc.

What is it about Tzimisce you love that isn't right there in Ventrue, especially if you prefer OCT?

I’ll just add to that too that there’s a reason D&D’s Monster Manual isn’t just stocked with humans and Castlevania has hordes of different types of minions and mini-bosses instead of just a trio of brides and maybe a brief struggle as you plunge the stake into Dracula’s heart during daylight hours.

Tzimisce added all manner of twisted body horror monsters; from twisted animals and ghouls to multi-ghouls melted together into engines of death, to Blood Brothers and Revenants; to the mix along with being able to pull a Final Boss One-Winged Angel transformation on themselves.

Each of the add-on clans has its own shtick; assassins, illusions, necromancy, shadow, snake cultists, body-horror monsters; that expands the variety of opponents available beyond the basic PCs while still keeping the focus on vampires and not werewolves or mages or faeries or demons.

The move with a lot of add-on clans seems to towards stripping away a lot of that uniqueness for something that’s practically just a variant or hybrid of one of the original clans... Ravnos are now a mix of the Tories (presence) and Nosferatu (outcasts), Tzmisce are hybrid Ventrue/Gangrel, Lasombra are hybrid Ventrue/Tremere. The Bloodlines are basically just gone entirely minus a loresheet entry.

Frankly, if I were writing V5 and just wanted to do away with the Sabbat, I would have had the Beckoning/Gehenna War basically shatter them and have the survivors (who’ve decided the whole thing was a fool’s crusade) slide right into the Anarchs and be largely responsible for why they’re now more organized and militant (they were the original anarchs after all) and why the Camarilla is so intent on kicking anarchs out of the group. They still hold onto their old customs and a lot of their beliefs (the anarchs don’t require adherence to humanity), they’ve just mostly given up on the idea that they’re part of some holy crusade to kill the Antediluvians for the glory of Caine (though a good chunk would still look at Caine as an exemplar to be emulated)... it’s all about your pack and what’s best for it now.

This would give you varying degrees of Sabbat; from “-in-name-only” to varying flavors of “reform”
to “true believers just using the cover to rebuild” that individual players/tables could choose from for their campaigns. I’d also give the Anarchs the Assamite Sorcerers-in-exile for access to blood magic.

With that in play there’s no reason to throw the Brujah and Gangrel out of the Camarilla (though they certainly would have Anarch members, just as all the clans do) or a need fo shatter the Pyramid so the Anarchs can blood magic via the Tremere (they have the Assamites for it).

The Ravnos, Giovanni/Hecata and Setites remain independent as before.

Yeah, it’s not as “dramatic” as “kill half of your already diminished clan to join”, but frankly, I think the most interesting things in the game should be what the players’ characters are doing, not what various NPCs are doing/have done. I feel that less grandiose (but still significant) changes can keep the setting from being too static without making the PCs into passive observers of “the real important story” that the NPCs are up to.

[Taggie]

I know you hate the loss of Paths but you realize they will behave exactly the same way, right?

From the preview, no they aren't, at all going to behave the same Path of Caine has gone from scholars and crusaders to junkies, and the none Sabbat former Path walkers suddenly have to subcontract out their self control, willpower, morality and sense of self out to touchstones, which is a horrific concept

[Ragged Robin]

From the preview, no they aren't, at all going to behave the same Path of Caine has gone from scholars and crusaders to junkies, and the none Sabbat former Path walkers suddenly have to subcontract out their self control, willpower, morality and sense of self out to touchstones, which is a horrific concept

With paths/sabbat They seem to be going the nephandi route were a faction is so relentlessly unpleasant to be effectively be unplayable. I honestly have no idea why they're doing this since it doesn't really enhance the game in any context but it's fair to say v5 lasombra/tzimsce are nothing like da clans with the lack of paths, cultural aspects,clan discipline and organization.

[Manfr]

This thread has inspired me to write a defence of nuCamarilla concepts: take a read and be kind :-D

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-masquerade/1460869-v5-making-sense-of-the-nucamarilla?_=1632338496525