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Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

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  • Shakanaka
    Originally posted by Sergeant Brother
    I like the idea of Lasombra in the Camarilla, though they shouldn’t be in there as second class citizens. The Lasombra should be in the Camarilla with a position of power, not weakness. That undermines what makes the Clan cool.
    Lasombra being in the Camarilla, aside from their minority antitribu, makes little to no sense at all. The Lasombra staked their entire honor, prestige, weight, and institutional strength behind the Sabbat and were essentially the defacto rulers of the Sect, with the Tzimisce following as a close second in the Sabbat like how Tremere are a close second to the Venture in the Camarilla.

    The Lasombra as whole defecting in a mass drive to join the Camarilla.. is just one of the most stupid decisions in VTM to date right about now. They're guaranteed to become "second class citizens" because they've conceded so much face and ground to the Venture. This move also is just a grander decision to pull the rug out of the Sabbat from the game in general as well.

    EDIT: Also I disagree with the notion of the decision to put the Lasombra in the Camarilla was one about their supposed "conservative leanings". Its entirely about a general dislike of anything that has to do with the Sabbat.
    Last edited by Shakanaka; 09-04-2021, 02:31 PM.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    The Lasombra antitribu in the Camarilla worked well, all they needed was a little expansion. What V5 did to them was spiteful, and the foolish defectors undermine the Lasombra already in the Cam.

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  • Sergeant Brother
    So I largely agree here. It makes no sense to me at all for the Gangrel to leave the Camarilla. For the Gangrel, the Camarilla really doesn’t have many downsides. If they want the advantages of independence, just go into the woods or a small town and the Camarilla might as well not exist. Need institutional support for some reason, go into the city and you’re a Camarilla member with all associated benefits. There is no reason not to be in the Camarilla unless they had a strong unified agenda against the Camarilla and that doesn’t make any sense for such an individualistic Clan. I could see a case to be made for the Gangrel never joining as a Clan in the first place, but if they join they will never leave. A Justicar or inner circle member may step down, but there will surely be elder Gangrel who would want to step up.

    I also agree with the Assamites. Honestly, I have long (since it was first suggested back in revised edition) thought that the Assamites were the last Clan that would be allowed to join the Camarilla. I could more easily see the Baali, Settites, or Tzimisce as full fledged Camarilla members. Giovanni or Cappadocians would fit in way better.

    I could potentially see the Brujah leaving the Camarilla, they make more sense than Gangrel leaving because the Brujah have a more concrete objection to Camarilla leadership, have more of a political and ideological agenda, and are more negatively impacted by certain Camarilla policies. Though as you say, there would still be some Brujah members who want to be in the Camarilla. One of the issues here is that the Anarchs shouldn’t be an independent sect like the Sabbath, they should represent the resistance within the Camarilla as the have since 1st edition.

    I like the idea of Lasombra in the Camarilla, though they shouldn’t be in there as second class citizens. The Lasombra should be in the Camarilla with a position of power, not weakness. That undermines what makes the Clan cool.

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  • Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

    The OG seven were the best lineup, every change is foolishness. I'm not saying this 'cause I'm a grognard; I started playing well after Gehenna came, but because the rationales of every change are terrible.


    Why did the Gangrel Join the Camarilla?
    -A very real fear that if they didn't, they'd be singled out and destroyed like the Salubri. The Gangrel had a lot of fights with other clans, and as lonely outsiders, the last thing they'd want is an organized reprisal. The Gangrel have a weakness that threatens the masquerade, no innate discipline to cover it, and have a reputation as outlaws; With a large sect who outwardly professes that keeping the Masquerade is one of it's top priorities, this is pretence enough to exterminate the Gangrel, or to allow the Tremere to continue turning them into Gargoyles alongside the Tzmisce.

    -The Camarilla's adherence to the traditions actually favour the Gangrel and joining would be a boost in their status. The Gangrel would theoretically have equal rights to every other core member, and this means that they are far more likely to have their domain claims respected. Facts are: while old Gangrel might be deformed monsters who can live in the wilds, young Gangrel (the active majority) aren't deformed monsters and they're not really powerful enough to brave the wilds. The Gangrel benefit from urban and suburban domains, yet they have less advantages in acquiring and protecting urban domains and other resources compared to almost every other clan; Other vampires find it relatively easy to outcompete Gangrel for territory in urban environs, before they start co-operating. With Camarilla membership, the Gangrel can buy into cities with fair prestration and expect their rights to Domain to be upheld, and their voice to be heard if it isn't. If they went anarch or independent.. well... That'd go to shit and the entire clan would be at a massive disadvantage.

    Why did the Gangrel leave the Camarilla?

    -Someone believed the Gangrel were meat shields for the Camarilla rather than the Camarilla being meat shields for Gangrel which... eh... isn't that likely? I mean yeah, the Gangrel make great mercenaries but that's their choice. They get prestation out of it. It's not like they're being blood bound and thrown at the Sabbat, or that the Sabbat are particularly attracted to mediocre Gangrel territories, or that nobody shows up when the Gangrel ask for help...

    -Some high-up fool thought he saw evidence of antideluvians and thus thought the Camarilla should do something about that. IE hysteria, only this guy was a SNPC and thus unreasonably respected so this clan of individualists all agreed with his decision to leave....

    Meta reasoning for the Gangrel to leave the Cam
    Because a good chunk of players play Hobo-Gangrels and automatically align with Anarchs because they're poor and like being rugged underdogs... except they could totally play rugged underdogs without shitting the bed for all the other players who like Gangrel and actually want to succeed.

    Proposed solution
    The Gangrel just went a protracted period of time without a Justicar, it's not unusual, few Gangrel worthy of joining the higher ups are jumping at the chance for the chore of a position.

    I'm not even sure if they're properly in the Cam yet.

    Why do the Schismatics want to join the Camarilla?
    Because Ur-Shulgi is terrifying and crazy as fuck, the Assamite sect is going to shit, the Ashirra are either a dying relic or full depending on your interpretation ,probably both, and the Camarilla is the biggest and bestest sect until V5. That's pretty reasonable.

    Why should the Camarilla reject the Assamites? Because they are guaranteed to provide massive amounts of instability and conflict.
    -Sheltering schismatics is inviting trouble with the loyalists who want to hunt them down or pose as loyalists so they can target other Camarilla members
    -A "moderate" Assamite is still radical by Camarilla standards. Don't want ideas like Diablerie to become widely provided for unsuspecting neonates.
    - Many Assamites were persecuted for their deep-seated religion. Do you know how much you have to warp these religions to practice them as a vampire? You'd have to be crazy, and these religious tensions are going to lead to further messes.
    -Paths other than humanity are greatly discouraged in the Camarilla. Blood, religious paths, honourable accord? Terrible, Bad, suspicious.
    - What are warriors good at? Murder, and only murder. The caste system has them locked in, and it won't take long till the Assamites remember their history and brand themselves as Judge, Jury and executioner. Yes, the schismatics have more viziers, but they all lie pretty good.
    -The Tremere curse has been lifted and the Baali curse is in swing.
    -The Tremere
    -For a schism, rebranding yourself to be closer to the figure your crazed, loyalist enemy worships really sends mixed signals to the secular society you're trying to join. Arabic doesn't particularly work well either when you're trying to go global. Yeah, Banu Haquim is a shit name, it's a downgrade from Assamite.
    -Assamite sorcerers are rare, disorganized targets for Tremere. Many practice styles that seem base, cruel and infernal. The fate of a sorcerer can go any way: enslaved, destroyed, successful; very few options don't create instability.

    No one Brujah can speak for all Brujah. If a Brujah tries to do something, another Brujah will do the opposite. I have some interesting ideas on why they could have left (and by that I mean the Fascist nuCamarilla kicked them out and they're trying to spin it so that it seemed like the Brujah's choice, that is the only rational explanation)

    As I hear it, the scenario we have with the Lasombra was an edict from a single city rather than a nuCamarilla wide thing. Still, it's a farcical scenario, one brought about alongside a general emasculation of an aggressive stereotypically macho and catholic clan; I can only conclude a writer really hates this clan and the players who enjoy playing them. The nuCam is a shitheap and the Lasombra are only going through hardships to join them rather than go the easier rout with the anarchs because the clan is a conservative stereotype and the nuCam are a conservative stereotype so they need to go together.... It's just sad talking about them, really. Don't let your prejudices hurt other people's good fun.