Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[AnubisXy]

If nothing else, the Lasombra suddenly pulling up stakes and abandoning the Sabbat to become second fiddle in the Camarilla makes as much sense to me as the Ventrue suddenly pulling up stakes and abandoning the Camarilla to play second fiddle in the Sabbat. That might happen on a smaller level with individuals doing that, but no matter how I look at it at an institutional level I just can't buy it.

If they wanted to have the Lasombra in a more prominent position in the Camarilla it would have made more sense for the Lasombra Antitribu to step up and take one of the vacant seats left by the Gangrel or Brujah.

[CTPhipps]

To be fair, regarding the Assamites, the Camarilla knows that Ur-Shulgi's people plan the genocide of all non-Haqim vampires.

No point in not antagonizing them since they're already antagonized by other vampires' existence.

[Sergeant Brother]

That's really the problem. The Promise isn't necessary for the Giovanni to fulfil their nefarious goals, all it really does is add a headache for players trying to integrate the Giovanni (admittedly, this is because the books have been rather shy on sections for how to incorporate Independents/bloodlines into Camarilla cities, which I think should be down to the Prince's rulings (IE storytellers do what they want) but STs really need something to get the ideas rolling, you can't just leave a blank and expect folks to know what to do. The death bloodlines, be they Capadocian, Giovanni, Samedi or Nagaraja would all benefit from Camarilla acceptance (I think the Nagajara might be asked too many questions they don't want to answer, so maybe not them, but I also think they could be persecuted for their clan weakness if they don't find some kind of compromise) . The Giovanni could certainly work some kind of agreement to allow their structure to persevere, the Tremere very likely have some clause that allows Lords/Pointifexes special rights to visit Chantries under their jurisdiction.

Yeah, I’m not a fan of the Promise, it actually doesn’t make sense to me. But, it has been a part of canon for a long time so I figured I’d go with it.

Yeah, I think that making the Hecata was a missed opportunity considering all of the various Necromancer bloodlines out there. Making the Hecata might be good for a Necromancer chronicle, but most players aren’t going to want to play that. They would rather incorporate a Necromancer character in a a Camarilla, Sabbat, or Anarch game. I think it would have facilitated such play better if they had decided on certain bloodlines to join certain sects.

Of course, people can always play a Necromancer in a (for example) Camarilla game anyway, but either the ST needs to hand wave away the political tension or your character is going to be in the outsider role.

[Reasor]

I'm glad that the Gangrel's departure from the Camarilla with the launch of Revised Edition came up in the original post; like much of V5's faction shuffleboard, it *feels* like something that came down from on high for reasons outside itself. It puts the Camarilla on the ropes against the Sabbat at the start of that edition to the game, adding to the dramatic tension of the loss of America's east coast, but it doesn't serve the clan's interests or lead to anything noteworthy at all. Not only is the thing the Gangrel fought in upstate New York *not* an antedeluvian (it's just the supplementary novel equivalent of a Storyteller NPC armed with a Macguffin), the Gangrel as a clan spend the rest of the edition not organizing, not joining the Sabbat, not getting ready for Gehenna in any way. They just spend the rest of Revised as Anarchs, which was all the edition's head runner wanted for them.

As long as I'm critiquing clan changes, the Nagaraja being absorbed into the children of Cappadocius is sheer nonsense. I get it, too many clans and bloodlines had Necromancy and it stopped being special. Fine. Good point, even. Merge the Cappadocians and finally resolve that haggard storyline, but the Nagaraja are a wholly different thing of their own.

[CTPhipps]

Yeah, I’m not a fan of the Promise, it actually doesn’t make sense to me. But, it has been a part of canon for a long time so I figured I’d go with it.

Yeah, I think that making the Hecata was a missed opportunity considering all of the various Necromancer bloodlines out there. Making the Hecata might be good for a Necromancer chronicle, but most players aren’t going to want to play that. They would rather incorporate a Necromancer character in a a Camarilla, Sabbat, or Anarch game. I think it would have facilitated such play better if they had decided on certain bloodlines to join certain sects.

Of course, people can always play a Necromancer in a (for example) Camarilla game anyway, but either the ST needs to hand wave away the political tension or your character is going to be in the outsider role.

Pure Speculation: The Promise is a post-facto justification for why the Giovanni aren't part of the Camarilla.

Mind you, I could see why the Camarilla would be nervous about ANOTHER bunch of necromancer diablerists joining. I could see the Tremere as the primary voice against them.

[Sergeant Brother]

Pure Speculation: The Promise is a post-facto justification for why the Giovanni aren't part of the Camarilla.

Mind you, I could see why the Camarilla would be nervous about ANOTHER bunch of necromancer diablerists joining. I could see the Tremere as the primary voice against them.

Yes, I think that’s true. Honestly, the independent Clans weren’t very thought out. It was like they had a few hours before the books were going to go to print and they needed to come up with ideas for the independents. Thieving Gypsies whose flaw is being criminals, Muslim assassins, Thulsa Doom, and incestuous Necromancer Venicean banker family. Actually, the Giovanni are the most creative, three dimensional, original, and playable idea there. Maybe better suited for a bloodline than a Clan, but not a narrow ethnic stereotype even if they get painted as an Italian Mafia family slightly.

A number of the independent or Sabbat Clans released later could have had a place in the Camarilla but they decided to say that there are none, rather than providing examples of what those Clans members could do in the Camarilla.

V5 decided to shake things up so they could depart from the old conventions, they just did it in some ways I disagree with. They had to change something though, they couldn’t just make V5 into another V20, so they were in a tough position.

[CTPhipps]

V5 decided to shake things up so they could depart from the old conventions, they just did it in some ways I disagree with. They had to change something though, they couldn’t just make V5 into another V20, so they were in a tough position.

Yeah. I think it's long overdue too. The whole "what Clan is or isn't part of the Camarilla" is a kind of silly line in the sand. If a Giovanni is living in, say, Chicago and he's subject to the laws of the Prince then isn't he a member of the Camarilla?

Does being on the inner council or having a Justicar matter to anyone but the specific vampires themselves?

[Sergeant Brother]

Yeah. I think it's long overdue too. The whole "what Clan is or isn't part of the Camarilla" is a kind of silly line in the sand. If a Giovanni is living in, say, Chicago and he's subject to the laws of the Prince then isn't he a member of the Camarilla?

Does being on the inner council or having a Justicar matter to anyone but the specific vampires themselves?

Yeah, moving away from a strict in or out of sect attitude would probably be better, maybe with a few exceptions.

Whether or not your Clan has a Justicar or Inner Circle member might matter to your typical Chicago vampire, because it determines how much discrimination a vampire can be subject to on the basis of Clan. If you’re in an official Camarilla Clan with a Justicar then a prince probably won’t just be able to have you killed (at least openly) just because he doesn’t like your Clan. If not… then maybe he can give the order to kill you.

Which is why no Clan is going to want to leave the Camarilla and become independent like the Gangrel. Because even if you claim independence you still have to obey the the Camarilla’s and prince’s rules in a Camarilla city, but when you’re a Camarilla member, there will be rules about how they can treat you as well.

[CTPhipps]

Yeah, moving away from a strict in or out of sect attitude would probably be better, maybe with a few exceptions.

Whether or not your Clan has a Justicar or Inner Circle member might matter to your typical Chicago vampire, because it determines how much discrimination a vampire can be subject to on the basis of Clan. If you’re in an official Camarilla Clan with a Justicar then a prince probably won’t just be able to have you killed (at least openly) just because he doesn’t like your Clan. If not… then maybe he can give the order to kill you.

Which is why no Clan is going to want to leave the Camarilla and become independent like the Gangrel. Because even if you claim independence you still have to obey the the Camarilla’s and prince’s rules in a Camarilla city, but when you’re a Camarilla member, there will be rules about how they can treat you as well.

I think the question is not about the Gangrel specifically but how much you're getting out from putting in general.

If you're Pro-Camarilla, then the Camarilla being left by any clan is a stupid idea and they look like idiots. It's all benefits and few downsides.

If you're Anti-Camarilla, then the Camarilla is just a leech (like a vampire!) that will use up its members for the benefit of the 1% of the 1%.

That will impact your view as a Storyteller and Player.

It also will tell you whether you think the conflict between the Anarch vs. Camarilla versus Sabbat vs. Camarilla.

[Sergeant Brother]

I think the question is not about the Gangrel specifically but how much you're getting out from putting in general.

If you're Pro-Camarilla, then the Camarilla being left by any clan is a stupid idea and they look like idiots. It's all benefits and few downsides.

If you're Anti-Camarilla, then the Camarilla is just a leech (like a vampire!) that will use up its members for the benefit of the 1% of the 1%.

That will impact your view as a Storyteller and Player.

It also will tell you whether you think the conflict between the Anarch vs. Camarilla versus Sabbat vs. Camarilla.

Well, that brings up an interesting question. What are the pros and cons of belonging to the Camarilla? Or the Sabbat too for that matter, but their pros and cons are more obvious.

One thing to keep in mind is that independence doesn’t protect you from a sect or members of that sect. If you’re from a neutral Clan or Bloodline and you enter a Camarilla city, you are still just as subject to the Camarilla laws and the vampires ruling that city as any other vampire there. When the Sheriff tells you that he wants you to come along for questions, telling him that you’re a “sovereign citizen” isn’t going to work any better than does for humans in real life. If you waltz into a Sabbat city and you’re independent then they can kill you and drink your soul and they don’t care.

So being independent doesn’t exempt you from anybody’s laws or protect you from anybody’s thugs. It might, though, allow you to make deals and have business with both sects. A Settite could sell information to a Sabbat priest on one day and a Camarilla prince on the next and that kind of relationship might be the most profitable. If the Settite is in the Camarilla then it would be harder and more dangerous to deal with the Sabbat.

If, for some reason, the Settites decide to wage war on the Gangrel, the rest of the Camarilla will protect them. That is a big advantage. If they’re independent, they have to face their enemies alone. On the other hand, if another Camarilla Clan (or the Camarilla in general) comes under attack then you might be expected to come to its defense. This is where things get a bit hazy, because I don’t know if the Camarilla or it’s leaders have the ability to draft vampires into service or even to tax them or make them participate in the defense of the Camarilla. Presumably, being members of the Camarilla entitles vampires to certain rights or protections, as minimal as they may be.

For the Gangrel, it seems to me that they get the best of both worlds, because if they want to be free of Camarilla laws or obligations, all they have to do is leave the cities and they are free of the Camarilla. If they need to enter a Camarilla city then membership grants some degree of rights and respect. If they need help, they might be able to get it. Even being able to leave the Camarilla suggests a much higher of unity and organization than I ever would have expected from the Gangrel. Joining the Anarchs as a Clan, as a unified political body not just dissidents within the Camarilla, seems even more unlikely.

[AnubisXy]

Yeah. I think it's long overdue too. The whole "what Clan is or isn't part of the Camarilla" is a kind of silly line in the sand. If a Giovanni is living in, say, Chicago and he's subject to the laws of the Prince then isn't he a member of the Camarilla?

Isn't that how it's always worked? The Camarilla always claimed that every vampire on the planet was a member of the organization (something that got a chuckle out of the Sabbat). So technically any vampire is a Camarilla vampire. The reality, of course, is that that would only apply to a Camarilla city, but any vampire who was member of the Independent clans should technically be treated the same as any official member. That said, people who don't officially join the sect probably have a somewhat harder time getting into Elysium and will find themselves more at the mercy of the local Sherriff. If the Prince or members of the Primogen decide they doesn't much like you, you're probably fucked since you don't have any clanmates who can try and help you out.

That's mostly what I recall from the Players Guide to the Camarilla where it discussed how members of other clans (Independents, Tzimisci, etc) slotted into the Camarilla.

[CTPhipps]

For the Gangrel, it seems to me that they get the best of both worlds, because if they want to be free of Camarilla laws or obligations, all they have to do is leave the cities and they are free of the Camarilla. If they need to enter a Camarilla city then membership grants some degree of rights and respect. If they need help, they might be able to get it. Even being able to leave the Camarilla suggests a much higher of unity and organization than I ever would have expected from the Gangrel. Joining the Anarchs as a Clan, as a unified political body not just dissidents within the Camarilla, seems even more unlikely.

Really, I'd argue the big deal of the Independent vs. Camarilla thing is the fact that in 1999 the Sabbat was waging a war over the entirety of the East Coast. Being a direct target of the Sabbat seemed like it might have been a thing the Gangrel would worry about.

They could have (but didn't) make the Gangrel "leave" because they were signing a non-aggression pact with the Sabbat.

No, it was all about the Antediluvians supposedly, which I admit makes absolutely no sense.

[CTPhipps]

Isn't that how it's always worked? The Camarilla always claimed that every vampire on the planet was a member of the organization (something that got a chuckle out of the Sabbat). So technically any vampire is a Camarilla vampire. The reality, of course, is that that would only apply to a Camarilla city, but any vampire who was member of the Independent clans should technically be treated the same as any official member. That said, people who don't officially join the sect probably have a somewhat harder time getting into Elysium and will find themselves more at the mercy of the local Sherriff. If the Prince or members of the Primogen decide they doesn't much like you, you're probably fucked since you don't have any clanmates who can try and help you out.

That's mostly what I recall from the Players Guide to the Camarilla where it discussed how members of other clans (Independents, Tzimisci, etc) slotted into the Camarilla.

Which is funny because the Promise would mean the Giovanni are the only non-Camarilla vampires in the world.

The Anarchs and Sabbat are just vampires in insurrection.

[Sergeant Brother]

Really, I'd argue the big deal of the Independent vs. Camarilla thing is the fact that in 1999 the Sabbat was waging a war over the entirety of the East Coast. Being a direct target of the Sabbat seemed like it might have been a thing the Gangrel would worry about.

They could have (but didn't) make the Gangrel "leave" because they were signing a non-aggression pact with the Sabbat.

No, it was all about the Antediluvians supposedly, which I admit makes absolutely no sense.

Yes, that would have made way more sense. If the Gangrel wanted out of the war or even wanted to have dealings with Sabbat, then leaving the Camarilla could have facilitated that. Then that would have made more sense. Then again, they could still have avoided the conflict by hiding out in woods and small towns, individually would still have been vulnerable to Sabbat packs, and are still too individualistic to all decide to do that at once. I might see the issue is that they would officially remain in the Camarilla but unofficially ignore the sect.

[CTPhipps]

Yes, that would have made way more sense. If the Gangrel wanted out of the war or even wanted to have dealings with Sabbat, then leaving the Camarilla could have facilitated that. Then that would have made more sense. Then again, they could still have avoided the conflict by hiding out in woods and small towns, individually would still have been vulnerable to Sabbat packs, and are still too individualistic to all decide to do that at once. I might see the issue is that they would officially remain in the Camarilla but unofficially ignore the sect.

Honestly, how much is a pack being wasted trying to hunt Gangrel down in a small town?

I mean, I think we sometimes underestimate how hard it would be to find vampires if you didn't have clues to look. ASHES TO ASHES was a module based on how Neonates have no idea how to find their fellow vampires, let alone the Prince.