Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[CTPhipps]

So they were going to gut their clan, reject their identity and become yet another bunch of ventrue wannbes? (Mind you they did this to the Tzimisce as well)

Well it depends if you consider the Dark Ages versions of the Lasombra and Tzimisce to be superior, which I do.

[Taggie]

I took it more as:

Ventrue: You are going to do what you were going to do anyway!

Lasombra: Excellent! I mean, nooo! Please don't throw me in the briar patch!

Ventrue: Oh, then welcome to the Ivory Tower.

*Lasombra helps themselves to taking over*

So they were going to gut their clan, reject their identity and become yet another bunch of ventrue wannbes? (Mind you they did this to the Tzimisce as well)

[Taggie]

Oh sure, but the Tzimisce and Lasombra in particular were notable for that their revolt included elders who were even from the dawn of the Roman Empire or possibly older. (Vitel for instance joined the rebel Lasombra and actively fought on the Anarch side during the first revolt before he decided they weren't worth his time, Velya was a foundational part of the Tzimisce revolt). It's just a bit of a stand out.

Remember the War of Princes that led up to the revolt was Methuselahs for sure, and Antediluvians maybe throwing their descendants into a meat grinder before.the Inquisition kicked off, a day old or a millennium old, you would be used up and discarded just the same, if it served.

[MarkK]

I feel like it was always strange that there was no resistance within the Tremere.

It's a Gothic Punk game and they were the ones in most need of people rising up. So, I'm glad that we now have a lot more options for Tremere internal struggle and resistance.

That doesn't mean the Tremere are in a stronger place as a clan/political entity/magical entity. That means you personally like where the Tremere are as a clan.

[Ragged Robin]

The fall of the USSR was an absolute shitshow and it took a decade for wild dogs to disapear from the streets and for common people to go back to eating more than just potatoes. "shock therapy" ruined people. Sudden liberalization led to a hell of corruption and crime. The liberalization of eastern europe was a mess that set us back decades and it would be a disaster for vampires to emulate it.

The Soviet Union was also dissolved after a long period of decline and another government/s were implimented By contrast the Tremere were decapitated after centuries of consistent effective expansion and no centralised leadership or organization has replaced it. Furthermore they ate surrounded by enemies and rivals who have waited centuries for this moment. The only Real simulailrity is the balkanization aspects which as you mentioned were a shitshow of horror.

The lasombra if anything have it worse since they don't even have the numbers the tremere had now.

[Sergeant Brother]

I feel like it was always strange that there was no resistance within the Tremere.

It's a Gothic Punk game and they were the ones in most need of people rising up. So, I'm glad that we now have a lot more options for Tremere internal struggle and resistance.

Why would there need to be more resistance within the Tremere? When you’re embraced as a Tremere it’s like a combination of joining the Illuminati and going to Hogwart’s. You’re immortal, a member of a world dominating secret society of super powered wizards, with a huge institution that you can work within and learn from, plus you’re hated by people outside of this institution.

Who would want to fight against that? With how selective the Tremere are with their embraces, I can’t imagine they would embrace anybody who is enough of an imbecile to fight against that, especially when the Pyramid has so many good resources available - like protections, connections, and magical knowledge.

I mean, people can always play rebel Tremere, but there was never a need of rebel movements in the Clan, they were unique in their unity, especially when you had rebels in every other Clan. Even if they wanted to introduce a resistance group, they didn’t need to destroy the Pyramid and Inner Council to do that.

[CTPhipps]

*Sigh*

The Tremere have been one of my favorite Clans since the early 90’s and I always liked their unity and organizational structure. I liked the Council of Seven and the Vienna Chantry.

So it makes me sad hearing about the changes to the Clan, it is a major hurdle for me in getting interested in V5.

I feel like it was always strange that there was no resistance within the Tremere.

It's a Gothic Punk game and they were the ones in most need of people rising up. So, I'm glad that we now have a lot more options for Tremere internal struggle and resistance.

Nah that's a croc. The Pyramid offers protection and learning materials for those below. In honesty, most Tremere are going to be happy to be apprentices and don't really look towards becoming a Lord or higher because that just sounds like dangerous work that takes you away from your research and all the stuff you've been looking after.

The Camarilla and establishment really are the best place to be in your games. Huh?

As for the Lasombra, their structure doesn't really exist beyond "Protect the Brand" which, y'know, would go to shit given the V5 deal.

It's hard to take a clan seriously as subtle masters of manipulation and secretive puppet masters when they have guys running around with chainsaws and hockey masks. That's all I'm saying.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Nah that's a croc. The Pyramid offers protection and learning materials for those below. In honesty, most Tremere are going to be happy to be apprentices and don't really look towards becoming a Lord or higher because that just sounds like dangerous work that takes you away from your research and all the stuff you've been looking after.

As for the Lasombra, their structure doesn't really exist beyond "Protect the Brand" which, y'know, would go to shit given the V5 deal.

[Sergeant Brother]

*Sigh*

The Tremere have been one of my favorite Clans since the early 90’s and I always liked their unity and organizational structure. I liked the Council of Seven and the Vienna Chantry.

So it makes me sad hearing about the changes to the Clan, it is a major hurdle for me in getting interested in V5.

[CTPhipps]

The fall of the USSR was an absolute shitshow and it took a decade for wild dogs to disapear from the streets and for common people to go back to eating more than just potatoes. "shock therapy" ruined people. Sudden liberalization led to a hell of corruption and crime. The liberalization of eastern europe was a mess that set us back decades and it would be a disaster for vampires to emulate it.

And still, you have people begging to join NATO out of fear of being made part of the Russian Federation. No one's saying the Tremere didn't get a serious kick in the gut, I'm just saying plenty of them prefer it to being blood bound expendable pawns.

The thing about the Lasombra and Tremere is that it's absolutely 100% great if you're at the top of the pile.

But that gives no reason for the people at the bottom or middle to support the people at the top. Because when you're immortal, you're never going to let alone else up.

[MyWifeIsScary]

The fall of the USSR was an absolute shitshow and it took a decade for wild dogs to disapear from the streets and for common people to go back to eating more than just potatoes. "shock therapy" ruined people. Sudden liberalization led to a hell of corruption and crime. The liberalization of eastern europe was a mess that set us back decades and it would be a disaster for vampires to emulate it.

[Ragged Robin]

Uh, history is full of people switching sides in wartime. Sometimes to their regret, most times to winning. The Italians moving from the Axis to the Allies to getting conquered by the Germans only to switch back to the Allies is one example. Here's Sabaton's THE LAST BATTLE where the German Army and Allies fought together to wipe out an SS unit.

It's bizarre to equate the Sabbat with anyone but the Nazis as well.

"Oooo, the murderous psychotic blood cult that uses the vast majority of its ranks as cannon fodder was betrayed!"

Really?

Neither are those.

[Ragged Robin]

Weird, because I was thinking of the fall of the Soviet Union and the liberation of a good chunk of Eastern Europe.

That's not even close to an equivalent.

[CTPhipps]

I mean the closest irl equivalent to the tremere collapse is the 3rd century crisis were roman imperial authority imploded, was balkanised suffered massive infrastructural damage and eventually gave way to more oppressive theocratic monarchy which was crippled by said crisis The collapse of large centralised powers doesn't typically benefit its subject even if the system is oppressive. Theirs no real historical or in setting reason to presume the Tremere benefit from the collapse of the pyramid.

Their is no equivalent were to the lasombras situation. Since no organization has ever decapitated itself then surrendered to their primary enemy then asked to be king. The closest I can think of is quisling or vichey governments in ww2.

Weird, because I was thinking of the fall of the Soviet Union and the liberation of a good chunk of Eastern Europe.

And a very easy argument to make is House Ipsissmus and House Carna certainly view the fall of the Tremere Council of Seven to be a good thing because otherwise they'd be dead. Certain House Goratrix is benefiting in the fact that they're now being led directly by the Tremere Antediluvian (in disguise).

The only people suffering from the Fall of the Tremere are the Loyalists.

Which is probably, yes, more than half of the Clan. Even then, though, the individual Tremere lords and Regents will be able to expand their power on their own merits.

[Ragged Robin]

I mean the closest irl equivalent to the tremere collapse is the 3rd century crisis were roman imperial authority imploded, was balkanised suffered massive infrastructural damage and eventually gave way to more oppressive theocratic monarchy which was crippled by said crisis The sudden collapse of large centralised powers doesn't typically benefit its subject even if the system is oppressive. Theirs no real historical or in setting reason to presume the Tremere benefit from the collapse of the pyramid.

Their is no equivalent were to the lasombras situation. Since no organization has ever decapitated itself then surrendered to their primary enemy then asked to be king. The closest I can think of is quisling or vichey governments in ww2.