Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[Sergeant Brother]

Honestly, how much is a pack being wasted trying to hunt Gangrel down in a small town?

I mean, I think we sometimes underestimate how hard it would be to find vampires if you didn't have clues to look. ASHES TO ASHES was a module based on how Neonates have no idea how to find their fellow vampires, let alone the Prince.

It would be just about impossible for a pack to to hunt down Gangrel in the woods or small towns. A pack might kill a Gangrel if they randomly came across one or if the Gangrel entered a Sabbat area, but otherwise it’s pretty unlikely. A Gangrel who wants to avoid conflict would be good at doing it.

As you say, it’s probably hard to find vampires in general. I suppose in some cities you have a scourge going around using Auspex looking for strange vampires, but in general vampires can probably wander around in enemy territory and survive for quite a while.

It’s probably standard procedure to get contact information for local vampires through some sort of networking before entering a city.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Yes, I think that’s true. Honestly, the independent Clans weren’t very thought out.

Initially, yes, but they've evolved so wonderfully.
The issue is that the Independent clans double as cults. FoS? Cult. Ravnos? Even the moderate Paradox paths are pretty whack. Assamites? A cult that scares other vampires. Giovanni? They're a family... and a cult. Really, they're sects, and outsiders can join the FoS, Path of Paradox, Assamites and to a limited extent, the Giovanni. Now, that itself is not too much of an issue; The Tremere are a sect within a sect, but the beliefs of the Assamites and Ravnos are dangerous to the Camarilla, The FoS are a masquerade risk (and might just try to convince the rest of the Cam to destroy the world) and the Giovanni...

The Giovanni would make more sense if the Camarilla sheltered Capadocians (they didn't) or some big names want to punish the Giovanni for the purge (quite likely, the Tremere got off light, but they also had about 500 years for things to cool off before the sect was formed, the Cappadocian purge happened at around the same time as the Cam was formed, it was fresh) .

V5 decided to shake things up so they could depart from the old conventions, they just did it in some ways I disagree with. They had to change something though, they couldn’t just make V5 into another V20, so they were in a tough position.

Like they could've... streamlined the combat rules, or released some small setting changes that everyone could dig; Anarch sorcery becoming more prevailent, the Tremere being supressed slightly, the Lasombra antitribu increasing in numbers, the Sabbat and anarchs losing territories, the Gangrel rejoining the Cam, the Schismatics trying to join despite resistance and issues, some Camarilla members advocating for Vicissitude to not be violently suppressed in the Cam, and a reaction to that.

Vampires are slow to change. We don't need a soap opera, it's ok to have the status quo work for a while; it gives us much more room to work on intimate developments in our own cities without being overshadowed by international bullshit. The only big thing we really needed was a book where the subordinate Giovanni families axe the leadership of the main family and then go their seperate ways.

[AnubisXy]

Which is funny because the Promise would mean the Giovanni are the only non-Camarilla vampires in the world.

The Anarchs and Sabbat are just vampires in insurrection.

Yeah somewhat. 5th edition has really changed the fundamental idea of the Camarilla. It's not longer an inclusive organization that at least claims to represent all vampires everywhere, even if the reality is rather different. Now it comes off as more of an exclusive organization where even vampires who want to join get turned away. The whole thing with the Setites being officially refused membership membership in the Camarilla has really changed how the Camarilla operates and I'm still trying to get a handle on it in the new edition.

[CTPhipps]

Yeah somewhat. 5th edition has really changed the fundamental idea of the Camarilla. It's not longer an inclusive organization that at least claims to represent all vampires everywhere, even if the reality is rather different. Now it comes off as more of an exclusive organization where even vampires who want to join get turned away. The whole thing with the Setites being officially refused membership membership in the Camarilla has really changed how the Camarilla operates and I'm still trying to get a handle on it in the new edition.

I was okay with this because I felt it was a reaction to the Second Inquisition (as well as an attempt to make it more like the Invictus--I freely admit it). The Camarilla cutting the Anarchs and most of the poorer vampires of their ranks loose is pretty much what happened during the First Inquisition.

From the perspective of the Elders, if the Masquerade is already half-broken, is there any reason looking after the people who don't benefit them?

It's not like the Camarilla really ideologically cared about 90% of vampiredom. It was a claim of authority.

As for refusing the Setites, I am wondering if I actually saw this or not but I think it was because the Assamites basically said, "It's them or us?"

[MyWifeIsScary]

I really feel like someone didn't understand the Camarilla and wanted to transform it into something they could understand; So the Cam/Anarch divide became a reflection of the USA's mortal politics: A two party system with the Anarchs liberal and the Camarilla conservative, with third parties deleted because they're basically a waste of a vote. The Camarilla took on all the conservative qualities it could that a liberal doesn't like: It became Elitist, it became hostile to the "poor", It became religious in the worst way it could, it lost the Brujah because the writers mistook the prince's loyal opposition for liberals, and it gained the Lasombra because they're aggressive and religious and represent the Latin republican stereotype. If vampires were more like mortals, this could work, but they aren't, even your most disadvantaged full-blood is a king among men, with the innate ability to create ghouls. Vampires are only poor in relative terms comparing themselves to multi millionaires, or because they've decided to abstain from wealth. It's a fallacious analogue, nevermind that it doesn't translate well to anyone who isn't a sheltered middle class, liberal American (IE most people)

Honestly, it'd be more believable for the Inconnu to decide to be a big sect again. They don't have that much character to go wrong with, and the standoffish exclusivity actually suits them.
Make the Inconnu great again.

[Trollroot]

I really feel like someone didn't understand the Camarilla and wanted to transform it into something they could understand; So the Cam/Anarch divide became a reflection of the USA's mortal politics: A two party system with the Anarchs liberal and the Camarilla conservative, with third parties deleted because they're basically a waste of a vote. The Camarilla took on all the conservative qualities it could that a liberal doesn't like: It became Elitist, it became hostile to the "poor", It became religious in the worst way it could, it lost the Brujah because the writers mistook the prince's loyal opposition for liberals, and it gained the Lasombra because they're aggressive and religious and represent the Latin republican stereotype.

As I wrote elsewhere, to me this smacks of focus group "How do we market this to todays kids?" along with "Make it easier for the TV writers to understand". They'd burn the game to the ground for a shot at success in the really big media.

[CTPhipps]

I really feel like someone didn't understand the Camarilla and wanted to transform it into something they could understand; So the Cam/Anarch divide became a reflection of the USA's mortal politics: A two party system with the Anarchs liberal and the Camarilla conservative, with third parties deleted because they're basically a waste of a vote.

How would you describe it before because the Camarilla has always been divided between the Elders and the Anarchs. The Anarchs have always been a simmering bed of resentment, hatred, and anger at Elder oppression. Whether they were members or not. The big difference is that they were considered members of the Camarilla before even if they didn't consider themselves members. Which they didn't as the existence of the Anarch Free States proves.

If vampires were more like mortals, this could work, but they aren't, even your most disadvantaged full-blood is a king among men, with the innate ability to create ghouls.

We've discussed this before but without Dominate and Presence [and sometimes with], many vampires are people who have to survive from night to night. Ghouls are people who you have to trick into drinking your blood multiple times and then rapidly degenerate into barely functional junkies if they're not careful. Plenty of vampires, in simple terms, are people who have to work hard to feed let alone build networks of power.

But obviously this is just how I run it at my table and interpret the books versus how you run it at yours. YMMV.

Even so, I don't think that this argument (even if it's true) actually changes things. Because at the inherency of the Kindred condition is the "Vampires are Mobsters" element that Mark Rein Hagin put into it. Even if the Anarchs and Brujah are just a bunch of greedy bastards who want turf and power, that's pretty much an argument right there to fight them for it.

A Baron is no different from a Prince save his own goons will kill him if he screws up (versus the Primogen) but the reason the Baron overthrows a Prince is because he wants what the Prince has. Which is, to a vampire, justification by itself. The Have Nots need no reason to hate the Haves except for greed.

[AnubisXy]

I was okay with this because I felt it was a reaction to the Second Inquisition (as well as an attempt to make it more like the Invictus--I freely admit it). The Camarilla cutting the Anarchs and most of the poorer vampires of their ranks loose is pretty much what happened during the First Inquisition.

From the perspective of the Elders, if the Masquerade is already half-broken, is there any reason looking after the people who don't benefit them?

Honestly it felt incredibly stupid to me. The Camarilla's goal has always been to enforce the Masquerade. Cutting off the Anarchs and two major clans just makes it more like that if some dumb vampires start revealing themselves to the public at large, the Camarilla won't have the resources in place to quickly do anything about it. Like it or not, a breech of the Masquerade in one place will cause problems for vampires everywhere, even those in the Camarilla.

Basically as long as the Camarilla wants to enforce the Masquerade, then it's to the Camarilla's benefit to has many members as possible and as large of a geographic profile as possible to deal with Masquerade breaches. Especially now that Masquerade breaches can mean drone strikes from the military. Cutting so many vampires loose makes no sense. I suppose the Camarilla could have functionally given up on the Masquerade and figures that it's no longer worth the time, effort and resources of trying to keep things secret or protecting dumb vampires from themselves. But dumb vampires getting caught will come back to haunt elders as well - that's exactly what happened during the first inquisition..

Also saying, "Well, let's kind of give up on trying to enforce the Masquerade" kind of goes against the base idea of Vampire: the Masquerade.

[CTPhipps]

Honestly it felt incredibly stupid to me. The Camarilla's goal has always been to enforce the Masquerade. Cutting off the Anarchs and two major clans just makes it more like that if some dumb vampires start revealing themselves to the public at large, the Camarilla won't have the resources in place to quickly do anything about it. Like it or not, a breech of the Masquerade in one place will cause problems for vampires everywhere, even those in the Camarilla.

Basically as long as the Camarilla wants to enforce the Masquerade, then it's to the Camarilla's benefit to has many members as possible and as large of a geographic profile as possible to deal with Masquerade breaches. Especially now that Masquerade breaches can mean drone strikes from the military. Cutting so many vampires loose makes no sense. I suppose the Camarilla could have functionally given up on the Masquerade and figures that it's no longer worth the time, effort and resources of trying to keep things secret or protecting dumb vampires from themselves. But dumb vampires getting caught will come back to haunt elders as well - that's exactly what happened during the first inquisition..

Also saying, "Well, let's kind of give up on trying to enforce the Masquerade" kind of goes against the base idea of Vampire: the Masquerade.

And yet this is exactly what the vampires in the Dark Ages did to protect themselves. They gave up the younger vampires en masse in order to make sure the Inquisition didn't go after themselves. Which is why the First Anarch Revolt started and why the Second Anarch Revolt has stopped being a nuisance but is now an actual threat to the Camarilla.

Honestly, it may be a little TOO direct the one to one parallels of the actions of the Elders.

Even with the "History may not repeat but it rhymes" element.

[MyWifeIsScary]

How would you describe it before because the Camarilla has always been divided between the Elders and the Anarchs. The Anarchs have always been a simmering bed of resentment, hatred, and anger at Elder oppression. Whether they were members or not. The big difference is that they were considered members of the Camarilla before even if they didn't consider themselves members. Which they didn't as the existence of the Anarch Free States proves.

This is a lot of bullshit.

The Cam wasn't Elders V Anarchs. The Cam was Elders who might be losing it a bit, Neonates who were still learning, and Ancillae who understood both and glued everyone together. It's really in the names they've given themselves. Occasionally an elder would lose it and drive others away, or a neonate would screw up, feel persecuted, get ideas above himself, and declare himself an Anarch, and thus a loser. That wasn't the path for all neonates. Plenty of Neonates could play the game well and become the Camarilla in-crowd, working within the system to get what they want. Realistic expectations, humility, willingness to work with others, political awareness, and not being short-sighted is all you need to thrive in the Cam, and all the things you lack if you join the Anarchs (Channeling my Inner Tremere here)

The big difference is that they were considered members of the Camarilla before even if they didn't consider themselves members

Imagine getting mad because the country you were born in considers you a citizen and doesn't make you bother with bullshit like Visas.

[CTPhipps]

This is a lot of bullshit.

The Cam wasn't Elders V Anarchs. The Cam was Elders who might be losing it a bit, Neonates who were still learning, and Ancillae who understood both and glued everyone together. It's really in the names they've given themselves. Occasionally an elder would lose it and drive others away, or a neonate would screw up, feel persecuted, get ideas above himself, and declare himself an Anarch, and thus a loser. That wasn't the path for all neonates. Plenty of Neonates could play the game well and become the Camarilla in-crowd, working within the system to get what they want. Realistic expectations, humility, willingness to work with others, political awareness, and not being short-sighted is all you need to thrive in the Cam, and all the things you lack if you join the Anarchs (Channeling my Inner Tremere here)

Imagine getting mad because the country you were born in considers you a citizen and doesn't make you bother with bullshit like Visas.

I think you envision a far more harmonious Camarilla than ever existed as before V5 there was:

* The First Anarch Revolt
* French Revolution
* Brujah Council
* The Anarch Free States
* The Council Wars
* The probable death of La Croix at the hands of the Fledgling

Hell, the Camarilla exists because of the Anarch/Camarilla divide and accepting half of them into the ranks. A lot of them sold out, yes, but new ones filled the ranks.

Violent overthrow of the Elders has always been a threat from within, though.

You're acting like the Anarchs were a minor deal versus the guys in charge of California and a resistance in many other places.

[MyWifeIsScary]

-Camarilla was created to respond to the first anarch revolt (and it's fucking stupid that they're explicitly recreating the scenario)
-RevolutionS. There were multiple. France is on it's fifth republic, to say nothing for the failures. Does it say this is all Anarch work?
-Brujah council was really just going with the flow of a massive and tumultuous mortal event. Also, they probably took that land from the Tzmisce, not the Camarilla.
-Anarch free states are A: failures and B: California. It's like if I said Communism is still going strong because Vietnam and Cuba. It's irrelevant to most.
-Don't know what that is.
-LaCroix is in that free state argument, you're just trying to pad your list out to make it look bigger. Also, I don't think more than 50% go for the Anarch ending.

Compared to just how big the vampire world is, I'd say the Anarchs were very minor.

[archderd]

I think you envision a far more harmonious Camarilla than ever existed as before V5 there was:

* The First Anarch Revolt
* French Revolution
* Brujah Council
* The Anarch Free States
* The Council Wars
* The probable death of La Croix at the hands of the Fledgling

Hell, the Camarilla exists because of the Anarch/Camarilla divide and accepting half of them into the ranks. A lot of them sold out, yes, but new ones filled the ranks.

Violent overthrow of the Elders has always been a threat from within, though.

You're acting like the Anarchs were a minor deal versus the guys in charge of California and a resistance in many other places.

most of these either are local issues or human issues that bled into vampiric society. the first anarch revolt happened before the cam was a thing and the cam was formed partially to prevent another conflict on the scale of the anarch revolt.

[CTPhipps]

most of these either are local issues or human issues that bled into vampiric society. the first anarch revolt happened before the cam was a thing and the cam was formed partially to prevent another conflict on the scale of the anarch revolt.

I wouldn't say partially, I'd say the Camarilla COMPLETELY existed to prevent another Anarch Revolt. The Inquisition was also an issue but it was the two main driving and intwined forces.

The War of Ages and the Anarchs are not the same thing but they are related.

Basically, I suppose it's how central you see the Anarchs as a part of the gameline. Are they an annoyance the Camarilla tolerates or are they a central conflict? I think the game has multiple answers to that across Editions.

[archderd]

I wouldn't say partially, I'd say the Camarilla COMPLETELY existed to prevent another Anarch Revolt. The Inquisition was also an issue but it was the two main driving and intwined forces.

The War of Ages and the Anarchs are not the same thing but they are related.

Basically, I suppose it's how central you see the Anarchs as a part of the gameline. Are they an annoyance the Camarilla tolerates or are they a central conflict? I think the game has multiple answers to that across Editions.

the primary goal of the cam is protecting the masquarade preventing another anarch revolt is part of that but it isn't the complete objective.

i'd say the war of ages is central to the game line, the anarchs being a modern incarnation of it, the issue is that alot of ppl treat the anarchs as the only modern incarnation of the war. and if they do acknowledge other incarnations of the war they treat it like it ain't a true scotsman