Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[archderd]

I took it more as:

Ventrue: You are going to do what you were going to do anyway!

Lasombra: Excellent! I mean, nooo! Please don't throw me in the briar patch!

Ventrue: Oh, then welcome to the Ivory Tower.

*Lasombra helps themselves to taking over*

i ain't judging, if the lasombra wanted to go fuck themselves that's there buisness

[Shakanaka]

*Lasombra helps themselves to taking over*

lolno

How can you still have bad takes on this, at this point? With the Lasombra so heavily disintegrated as Clan per the stipulations on how they must join it, the Lasombra is going to be essentially bloodline status by the time they've finished this forced self-genocide on themselves. Not only that, with so much of their Elders (who coincidentally all should be in Middle-East per the Beckoning nonsense, which makes me question how the Lasombra are completing their objectives demanded of the Camarilla to begin with) meeting Final Death, as a Clan they are going to lose a tons of resources, wealth, and valuable connections. Then from there, they are going to be the abject bottoms of the Camarilla organization with how they're being handled.

I wonder if this whole deal for the Lasombra to even get in, is just a rouse by the Venture to ensure the Lasombra are "defanged" so they can be easily controlled under the Ventures' heels. This isn't even accounting for how even more gimped the Lasombra is, when for some inane reason they've lost the ability to use most technology. The bane with having no reflection was a classic and didn't needed to be changed. It was moderately-to-high masquerade risky enough.

What's going on with the Lasombra is the opposite of Social Darwinism. It's just pure Foolish Darwinism.

[MarkK]

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to go after her, I'm just saying it came off as comparatively vague that it actually happened outside of rumour compared to a Cardinal explicitly described as burning to ash after losing a fight with Talley and getting staked, and Carolina Valez writing her own death note under Talley's gaze, as it were.

[CTPhipps]

Right, I've seen that, but "word is" isn't exactly concrete, particularly when like I said, there's also developer talk that the Sabbat cover vampire is Lucita. He has more explicit kills of Sabbat elders/leaders in that book is my note.

Otherwise, the stupidity of Talley's loyalty to his clan notwithstanding, the Camarilla Lasombra having to give him up is a significant ding to their operational capacity. But that's kind of the point. They're having to make significant sacrifices, not convenient sacrifices.

As far as Vitel reaching into the Camarilla/the Camarilla Lasombra to make them blood hunt Talley, it just doesn't really come off as viable. He's at loggerheads with the Camarilla, on top of every other issue. The book notes that the Amici acknowledge they're going to lose useful Lasombra. Talley's a glaring example (a stupid example, but an example nonetheless).

Which cuts to the point, though.

1. Lucita was never going to join the Camarilla. After Moncada's death, Lucita went 100% all in to the Sabbat. So much so that Anatole and Beckett were like, "What the fuck is wrong with you?"

2. Taking down Lucita is something that the Amis Nocti and other parties would want because Lucita is a beloved important figure in the Sabbat.

3. Removing her is going to be a strategic choice because you know she would want to go after the defectors with a Brujah level of frenzy.

4. The Camarilla thinks its a "sacrifice" but really you don't want Lucita at your back.

5. And yes, she probably survived but a decade or so in torpor or being forced underground is not unlikely eitehr. Sort of like Vitel, it's hard to keep an ancient Lasombra down (and she's almost there).

[MarkK]

I took it more as:

Ventrue: You are going to do what you were going to do anyway!

Lasombra: Excellent! I mean, nooo! Please don't throw me in the briar patch!

Ventrue: Oh, then welcome to the Ivory Tower.

*Lasombra helps themselves to taking over*

The book itself doesn't really present itself as supporting either your take or the one you're replying to.

[MarkK]

Vitel is a Methusaleh. I have no doubt he has influence far beyond his domain.


I do think it nicely illustrates Talley's dedicated loyalty was a dumb-dumb philosophy.

For 600 years he was considered the perfect Lasombra and perfect Sabbat agent.

But if the two collide, he had to choose and there was no good answer.

Like Theo Bell and the Brujah/Camarilla.



Talley's Loresheet:

Representing an assortment of powerful Lasombra,
Talley participates in talks tonight permitting Keepers into
the Camarilla’s ranks. Word is, he put the flame to Lucita
at the Camarilla’s command, and did so without hesitation.
Unfortunately for Talley, it seems he’s soon to be hung out to
dry by the very masters he’s served so diligently for centuries

Page 286, Chicago by Night.

So I wouldn't feel too bad for Talley as there's no way he did this for the Camarilla and didn't make a huge number of enemies. Mind you, Lucita is probably alive as she was well-liked by other developers and her returning is a good plot.

Right, I've seen that, but "word is" isn't exactly concrete, particularly when like I said, there's also developer talk that the Sabbat cover vampire is Lucita. He has more explicit kills of Sabbat elders/leaders in that book is my note.

Otherwise, the stupidity of Talley's loyalty to his clan notwithstanding, the Camarilla Lasombra having to give him up is a significant ding to their operational capacity. But that's kind of the point. They're having to make significant sacrifices, not convenient sacrifices.

As far as Vitel reaching into the Camarilla/the Camarilla Lasombra to make them blood hunt Talley, it just doesn't really come off as viable. He's at loggerheads with the Camarilla, on top of every other issue. The book notes that the Amici acknowledge they're going to lose useful Lasombra. Talley's a glaring example (a stupid example, but an example nonetheless).

[CTPhipps]

the lasombra deal:

ventrue: you can join after you go fuck yourselves
lasombra: with or without lube?

I took it more as:

Ventrue: You are going to do what you were going to do anyway!

Lasombra: Excellent! I mean, nooo! Please don't throw me in the briar patch!

Ventrue: Oh, then welcome to the Ivory Tower.

*Lasombra helps themselves to taking over*

[CTPhipps]

Betraying Vitel wouldn't get Talley gone at by the Camarilla Lasombra who Vitel has no power over and is separate from, would be the thing.

Vitel is a Methusaleh. I have no doubt he has influence far beyond his domain.

[qupte]I think ultimately it boils down to Talley is the arguably best way the would be Camarilla Lasombra can show they're genuinely serious about all this, even if said best way is a terrible, terrible choice. So terrible. I mean even aside from the loss of a basically irreplaceable operative level of things, yeah, Lasombra trying to claim his unlife are in for a ride.[/quote]

I do think it nicely illustrates Talley's dedicated loyalty was a dumb-dumb philosophy.

For 600 years he was considered the perfect Lasombra and perfect Sabbat agent.

But if the two collide, he had to choose and there was no good answer.

Like Theo Bell and the Brujah/Camarilla.

So if I was going to pick the most logical feeling reasons, it's the "some elders felt only a sacrifice like him would be able to get them refuge" combined with the Camarilla probably going "yeah, see the sign over there? It says no Talleys."

I think considering Talley wiped out multiple Sabbat Lasombra he probably didn't see any of them as his personal sacrifice so much as his doing the job the Amici gave him to do (though I didn't think he killed Lucita? I guess I missed that one. I thought the Sabbat vamp on the cover of the book is supposed to be her or something?). Every one of those he took out is a "see? we killed that one, so let some of us in." that other Lasombra can point to.

And then he got the boot.

Talley's Loresheet:

Representing an assortment of powerful Lasombra,
Talley participates in talks tonight permitting Keepers into
the Camarilla’s ranks. Word is, he put the flame to Lucita
at the Camarilla’s command, and did so without hesitation.
Unfortunately for Talley, it seems he’s soon to be hung out to
dry by the very masters he’s served so diligently for centuries

Page 286, Chicago by Night.

So I wouldn't feel too bad for Talley as there's no way he did this for the Camarilla and didn't make a huge number of enemies. Mind you, Lucita is probably alive as she was well-liked by other developers and her returning is a good plot.

[archderd]

I got the impression it wasn't a sincere request and was more of implied rejection of overtures which was then portrayed as a dramatic 'gotcha' moment for the lasombra, since author clearly didn't understand the logistics of such an agreement.

As you said-bad writing.

the lasombra deal:

ventrue: you can join after you go fuck yourselves
lasombra: with or without lube?

[Ragged Robin]

I doubt the Camarilla would ask such a stupid thing. I doubt the Lasombra would accept such a stupid thing.

I got the impression it wasn't a sincere request and was more of implied rejection of overtures which was then portrayed as a dramatic 'gotcha' moment for the lasombra, since author clearly didn't understand the logistics of such an agreement.

As you said-bad writing.

[Damian May]

The weirdest thing for me is that the Cam deal for the Lasombra is exactly the deal you'd offer if your intent was to utterly destroy the Lasombra as a Clan. A very large proportion of them have departed to die in hopeless battle, the Sabbat is essentially gone, they are at their lowest ebb, in order to acheive " safe " harbour they need to destroy the remaining Lasombra more powerful than them and when they've done this the less than a third of them that remain are now ensconced within the Camarilla in subordination without support or resources where they can be crushed essentially at leisure by their age old enemies.

[archderd]

I agree with all of this. I still standby the thought that this lazy route with the Lasombra was done to further sabotage the Sabbat from the Metaplot in general, as well as hamfist to shove the Lasombra unnaturally into the Camarilla... for whatever reason.

wats probably the saddest part of it all is that you wouldn't really need to change the metaplot to make the lasombra as a cam clan work. lasombra anti-tribu have always been fairly powerfull individuals within the cam, the cam is making deals with the ashirra, a sect founded by a lasombra, and the sabbath is gone. this deal didn't need to exist for the lasombra to become a cam clan making it not just bad but also unnecessary

[Shakanaka]

The Lasombra plot is bad. The Camarilla in V5 is badly written. The events are contrived, the characters are inconsistent with previous material, the story makes no sense to me. Those are the failures that matter. The writers will decide if this stupid plot will pay well for the Lasombra or not, and/or any one who runs a game with those plots will. How you interpret the stupidly written plot is up to you and won't change that it is stupidly written.

I agree with all of this. I still standby the thought that this lazy route with the Lasombra was done to further sabotage the Sabbat from the Metaplot in general, as well as hamfist to shove the Lasombra unnaturally into the Camarilla... for whatever reason.

[MarkK]

Betraying Vitel wouldn't get Talley gone at by the Camarilla Lasombra who Vitel has no power over and is separate from, would be the thing.

I think ultimately it boils down to Talley is the arguably best way the would be Camarilla Lasombra can show they're genuinely serious about all this, even if said best way is a terrible, terrible choice. So terrible. I mean even aside from the loss of a basically irreplaceable operative level of things, yeah, Lasombra trying to claim his unlife are in for a ride.

So if I was going to pick the most logical feeling reasons, it's the "some elders felt only a sacrifice like him would be able to get them refuge" combined with the Camarilla probably going "yeah, see the sign over there? It says no Talleys."

I think considering Talley wiped out multiple Sabbat Lasombra he probably didn't see any of them as his personal sacrifice so much as his doing the job the Amici gave him to do (though I didn't think he killed Lucita? I guess I missed that one. I thought the Sabbat vamp on the cover of the book is supposed to be her or something?). Every one of those he took out is a "see? we killed that one, so let some of us in." that other Lasombra can point to.

And then he got the boot.

[monteparnas]

Just to remind you, it's not one Sabbat Elder not one Lasombra.

It doesn't matter. For each Lasombra to go to the Cam, a vampire older than them must be delivered to the Cam.

On a small scale this could be an interesting option for some situations. But on a large scale and for opening the door for defection this is ludicrous.

...and how do you feel about the events of 1405, when Gratiano, his followers, and some Assamites raided the Castle of Shadows, killing almost all the clan's elders and allegedly slaying its Antediluvian, with only one reported survivor? And after that, going across Lasombra domains offering the choice of "join or die"?

Was that feasible or reasonable? Was that the mark of a clan of social Darwinists, or desperate suicidals? Did the Lasombra accept such a stupid thing?

Were the Lasombra that survived the purge in sufficient numbers to call them at the end a clan? Were the elders slain in 1405 and beyond just waiting patiently to be killed?

Did the fact it happened and worked prove to you the Lasombra is a capable clan, or does it prove the writers had no idea what they were doing?

1- The events of 1405 were a coup preceded by thorough preparation, where Gratiano rallied allies from within and without, decided when, where and why attack, and the killing of those elders had a clear purpose for him, it were not the price the Tzimisce were asking to join their new club or something;

2- No one really knows what happened at the castle, even Gratiano's current generation is a secret, not a certainty. Or if he is really Gratiano, by the way, although I do think he is;

3- It shows much more Gratiano's success at a coup than anything about the clan as a whole;

4- The sheer lack of details on what happened there definitely proves the writers had no idea what they were doing.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________

Writing 101: you can put anything on paper. If you write that the Lasombra singlehandedly killed 99% of the Sabbat, the Lasombra killed 99% of the Sabbat. If you say the Amici Noctis have the Omnitrix, they have the Omnitrix. Whatever they publish is canon, I can't argue against that. I can argue the quality of their writing.

The Lasombra plot is bad. The Camarilla in V5 is badly written. The events are contrived, the characters are inconsistent with previous material, the story makes no sense to me. Those are the failures that matter. The writers will decide if this stupid plot will pay well for the Lasombra or not, and/or any one who runs a game with those plots will. How you interpret the stupidly written plot is up to you and won't change that it is stupidly written.