Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[CTPhipps]

Y'know what, I'm going to be fair. We do see a Lasombra solo warfight killing a Sabbat elder in Chicago by Night in order to meet the demands of the deal. A Lasombra Cardinal no less. To the point that said Lasombra stakes and burns them to ash. So hey, it happened!

There's some funny things about the deal:

* Talley the Hound despite arranging all this gets targeted by a bunch of Lasombra. Which seems to be COMPLETELY SUICIDA given Talley is one of those rare Elders who loves battle.
* Talley apparently killed Lucita and I wonder if that was his planned "sacrifice."
* Carolina Valez is an "elder sacrifice" despite the fact she was Embraced in the 1950s.

I have to wonder what it was that got Talley screwed:

* Betraying Marcus Vitel for the Amis Nocti
* Killing Lucita, who was probably NOT the Regent (Polonia probably was) but damn close to it
* The fact that Talley is one of those Lasombra that the Camarilla WOULD think of as a die-hard Sabbat fanatic
* Some elders felt only a sacrifice like him would be able to get them refugee
* Some idiots felt they could take him despite being one of the deadliest killers on Earth

[MarkK]

Y'know what, I'm going to be fair. We do see a Lasombra solo warfight killing a Sabbat elder in Chicago by Night in order to meet the demands of the deal. A Lasombra Cardinal no less. To the point that said Lasombra stakes and burns them to ash. So hey, it happened!

Of course, if we don't treat context as completely optional, the Lasombra we see doing that is Talley the Hound, who is himself a Lasombra elder held up as being of rarefied air in terms of his personal capacity and efficacy. He's so quality he was otherwise Vitel's right hand. He's part of the entire reason the deal with the Camarilla is able to go forward as far as his organizing it from above and laying the bloody, bloody groundwork for it.

And who the Lasombra boot from the clan, with him ending up blood hunted by the entire Camarilla, because he's an example that the clan are sacrificing legit resources they otherwise needed in order to make this deal happen. He's also the vampire another Lasombra tries to kill in a moment where he is weakened and not expecting to be turned on, and that vampire fails to do so. Talley escapes them.

When the one guy who actually does the thing that is being claimed will happen is 1) an over 600 year old 7th gen, blood potency 6 Lasombra noted as one of his clan's best operatives, 2) is kicked out of the Camarilla Lasombra and blood hunted, it for some reason, I couldn't tell you why, makes me dubious that there will be Camarilla Lasombra pulling off what he does as far as bringing death to who all ever in that way that he did. Especially when we see one of them outright fails to do what he did, his own childe no less.

(Also even Talley brought help just in case, the situation just treated him as not overly needing it for the Cardinal fight as far as the way it seems to be described. If you're going to tell me the Lasombra still have plenty of Talley's ilk, um... okay...)

[MarkK]

And the one that survived on the opposition was the two thousand year old fourth generation, whose age and esteem within the clan were higher than Gratiano's, yet somehow Montano wasn't able to rally those outside the Castle of Shadow's walls to wage an organized resistance against Gratiano's comparatively few followers?

Montano's problems ranged from that frankly, a lot of the other ancient Lasombra didn't actually like him much (the reward for being an honourable cainite in an overall vampiric world that likes to claim it values honour but in truth in their hearts despises and tears at at those who show the quality for being genuine), that a bunch of "younger" Lasombra elders extra didn't like him for his part in the attempted Greybeard's Deal of the Reconquista, and that of the various Lasombra Methuselahs who basically just ignored the Anarch Revolt in favour of their own schemes and interests and survived into the modern nights fine (of which there are a surprising number when you look at it), they outright didn't care what happened.

His other problem is that in working against the will of his own sire to rally against Gratiano and his followers, well, he was working against the will of an Antediluvian at that point (two of them if you think about it). For whatever reason, Tzimisce and Lasombra wanted the Anarch Revolt to happen and the Sabbat to coalesce. At that point Montano may as well have been trying to stop a hurricane.

Additional problems were that vampires like Marcus Vitel were actively supporting Gratiano and the Anarchs as a whole for quite a while. They liked the idea of the revolt and the opportunities it offered before deciding in the end it wasn't for them.

Same thing as what I just said: those who are critical of the decision to have the Lasombra join the Camarilla, are exercising some...highly selective and suspect, to say the least...reasoning.

That doesn't make your own reasoning better. It's in many ways just as selective for the way you seem to want to argue against their critique. You are not improving the situation by what you put forward.

But fine, I'll jump on in.

So, okay, if I wanted to reach forward for a better argument against what's noted against the defection in critiquing it, I would go for this: The Camarilla, while assholes, need all the help they can get right now for reasons V5 makes blatant right from the core, and the Lasombra, while assholes, need all the help they can get right now because if they stay with the Sabbat, there is at least 30% odds they are going to be eaten alive by resurgent Methuselahs/Lasombra himself having a larf, and any odds of something like that happening that are above 0% are terrible odds that no one should want to risk no matter what they have to give up to stop risking that. Neither faction are idiots. If either group shits on each other too hard/tries to play each other too hard, the deal will fall apart. None of them want that. The Lasombra will certainly suffer in meaningful ways for joining the Camarilla, at the hands of the Camarilla, there are going to be princes who will make them suffer, even the Amici expect that will happen and accepted that it will happen as an acceptable loss. It would border on silly to expect that after centuries of the Lasombra trying to wipe out the entire Camarilla, that there would not be some measure of suffering to endure to instead join it, and the Lasombra are not foolish enough to think that there wouldn't be or that they could totally just game that. We already see proclamations from Princes that are outright brutal supporting that this isn't going to be a pleasant ride for the Lasombra clan that costs them nothing of value. But eventually that should expend itself to make sure the Camarilla still get a clan out of it once everyone vents their spleens, as it were, because they do still want some kind of clan to remain afterwards. It's not a terrible arrangement but it certainly isn't a strong one. It's two groups in a bad place salvaging what they can off each other and dealing with that there is a lot of bad blood regardless. That doesn't really make for the best deals, but it is what it is. If you squint, it's plausible.

Is the level of suffering that has come to the Camarilla such that they would welcome the Lasombra bad writing? I certainly think so, and could go on at length for why. Is the level of suffering that has come to the Lasombra that it makes sense to fuck off from the Sabbat in the name of not dying bad writing? I certainly think so, and could go on at length for why. But if you want to take the current state of the setting on its own terms, the Lasombra getting the fuck out of Sabbat makes sense (because the other option is die and they aren't that prideful), and the only other group they could exist in in a manner that suits their preferences is the Camarilla.

And you act as if the capacity to maximize strategic advantages such as insider information, knowledge of resource allocation and depletion, comparative might, and the element of surprise isn't an individual quality in and of itself.

When the capacity and situational circumstances to leverage such in the way that the Lasombra can now did not previously exist, no, it isn't a quality in the sense of trying to weigh it against a situation that is completely dissimilar.

I damn well can weigh Lasombra exploitation of strategic advantages as a superior accomplishment, and I damn well will. Because not only is that Jyhad 101, it's being measured against the Camarilla's performance at the height of its own capacity as you pointed out yourself, and the Camarilla plays the exact same game when warfighting against the Sabbat.

You can say that you can fly and you damn well will. What do you think will happen if you jump off a roof though? Your posts are hitting "this is so because I say so". Your comparison is straight up apples and oranges stuff. The things the Lasombra can do with situational advantages and degradations that could not have possibly existed for the Camarilla during the height of the sect war means that one situation is one thing, and another situation is a completely different thing. To insist that they are comparable anyway is to start having a fight with English, not me. And again, you continue to roll on with ignoring things like, a surprising lack of solo warfighter badassery in Lasombra that we have seen make it into the Camarilla, as opposed to completely theoretical Lasombra you say are out there, being impossible solo badasses. While you are also ignoring things like even Malenkov going down to a group, and that the one other incident we see that could possibly fit what you insist will be the thing that will happen, the attempt on Talley by his childe, not actually working.

I mean, you're the one who brought up the Battle of New York in the other thread. How did the Camarilla win that, again? Because if I remember right -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- that involved interrogation of Sabbat spirit slaves (insider information), radioactive blood slipped to Sabbat packs to trace their movements (knowledge of resource allocation and depletion), and daytime mass arson of Sabbat havens (element of surprise).

I really hope you understand you're now arguing against yourself. If the Camarilla could do all that to the Sabbat when the Sabbat was at the height of their power, such that they took one of their most important cities from them, despite the Sabbat having within a year previous having rocked the living hell out of the Camarilla as far as the Eastern Seaboard rampage, who are you to go on like this:

Especially for the fact the attempt to take said elder down was made, and it was successful. Which, given the targets involved, their political allegiances and nemeses, and their continued existence, means that was a feat the Camarilla, to that point, was incapable. This is the sect with the vampires who supposedly specialize in hunting Sabbat, dedicated anti-Sabbat strategies that have been honed to supposed perfection over the course of centuries, and the near-limitless resources at those specialists' disposal acting on behalf of an entire sect.

In other words, the clan's terms of entry are to do what Archons -- hell, coteries of Archons -- couldn't.

You want to talk about how incapable the Camarilla was in comparison to even solo Lasombra, that solo Lasombra can pull off what coteries of archons can't (and again, example? From the game?), but you also want to talk about the Siege of New York now? (Also the Siege of New York involved everything from being able to destabilize the Italian economy in order to credibly threaten the Giovanni into compliance/accepting bribes for tasks, to the things you note, to Fabrizio Ulfila riling the Society of Leopold against the Sabbat for a few months in advance to weaken them, to several direct, brutal mass combats that could not be avoided. This is what it took to go at the Sword of Caine in the height of their oomph. The Lasombra having to kill various members of their own clan/the Sabbat are facing no such difficulties and no such strength. The Sabbat don't even really have territory to speak of anymore to have to first work to erode. These are again, situations that do not bear out trying to compare them.)

You are abandoning consistency with your own arguments to try and hold onto this point in the way that you are.

In fact, if you really want to bring up New York and treat these situations as comparable despite all the issues with doing so, what you are putting forward is that despite taking it completely on the teeth from the Sabbat but months prior, the Camarilla was so capable during that era that they could rally from their losses and rip one of the cities that was essentially one of their major capitals (and just an important city to hold overall), out of the sect.

Why again are you thus going on about the, once again completely theoretical idea of Camarilla Lasombra soloing elder Sabbat members when the Sabbat is weak as something that should stun the Camarilla for being so utterly beyond what they could do?

It's a non-sequitur, so long as you fail to notice Sabbat elders who survived the sect war, survived the sect war for a reason, and that reason certainly would not be for the Camarilla's lack of effort.

You want to talk about things being ignored yet you also want to ignore that the things they helped them survive the sect war, from having territory to shore up defense and position in, to being part of a strong sect with considerable resources and membership to draw on, to not being actively involved in expending themselves in a suicidal, unwinnable war that is literally eating them up from within, to not having huge portions of their sect having been recently killed off worldwide by hunters, are conditions that no longer exist for them. The idea that people trying to kill them now, would in no way have as hard a time as they would trying to kill them in times past is not something you can actually avoid. That you keep insisting you can avoid these details is again one of those things you complain about others doing, yet end up doing yourself in some kind of you gazed too long into the abyss of posts you feel are wrongly made, and the abyss gazed back into you. (To paraphrase Phil Ken Sebben as regards the abyss quote and Lasombra debates: "Ha ha! Topical!")

You are no different or better than what you are complaining about. Your efforts to insist otherwise only aggravate the similarities and take you further and further away from things like actual book content.

Well as you just so succinctly explained, who would be helping them? They lack their Sabbat resources, no Lasombra's going to trust another in this pursuit as it's every vampire for themselves, and the Camarilla certainly wouldn't be extending a helping hand -- least of all, for their being as depleted and diminished as the Sabbat.

That is, under typical circumstances. Because I have a distinct feeling you'll try to play off the pre-published story in which this happens as "the norm", despite arguing this entire time what happens in the pre-published story is wholly atypical and not reflective of the general situation writ large.

Unless you can give actual examples of these badass solo warfighting elder killers presenting staked elders they took out themselves to get into the Camarilla, one of us is talking about book content, and the other is going "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" You are now at the point of "just because you can give examples from actual published material and I can't, doesn't mean you're right".

[MarkK]

Eh, every Elder is oppressed by an Elder older to them. Which goes to kind of show that conflict is one that in a more idealistic setting would result in diplomacy.

Oh sure, but the Tzimisce and Lasombra in particular were notable for that their revolt included elders who were even from the dawn of the Roman Empire or possibly older. (Vitel for instance joined the rebel Lasombra and actively fought on the Anarch side during the first revolt before he decided they weren't worth his time, Velya was a foundational part of the Tzimisce revolt). It's just a bit of a stand out.

[Theodrim]

It's less impressive to note when their doing so was the will of their own antediluvian, manipulating their actions...

Yeah, I say "but Antediluvians" all the time when my local players grouse the two clans that were wiped out, were the Salubri and Cappadocians and they both had Auspex and Fortitude. Doesn't change facts beyond the immediate, and how those clans were somehow miraculously "eradicated" over the course of decades or centuries.

For instance, at least one of the Lasombra that rolled along with Gratiano for the attack had 4 centuries and change under his belt, and wasn't some unique freak of nature for being so.

And the one that survived on the opposition was the two thousand year old fourth generation, whose age and esteem within the clan were higher than Gratiano's, yet somehow Montano wasn't able to rally those outside the Castle of Shadow's walls to wage an organized resistance against Gratiano's comparatively few followers?

What does this have to do with the note that you're talking up the accomplishment of killing these elders in a way that both overstates the capacity of the Lasombra, understates that of the Camarilla, and ignores the completely different circumstances they are going at the lives of said elders in?

Same thing as what I just said: those who are critical of the decision to have the Lasombra join the Camarilla, are exercising some...highly selective and suspect, to say the least...reasoning.

You talk up the Lasombra as impossible ultra badasses for "doing something the Camarilla couldn't" while ignoring that what makes it possible are conditions of depleted resources, strength, insider information, internal betrayal and sectarian defection, not some particular level of individual quality.

And you act as if the capacity to maximize strategic advantages such as insider information, knowledge of resource allocation and depletion, comparative might, and the element of surprise isn't an individual quality in and of itself.

The Lasombra doing something to Sabbat elders in a diminished, wrongfooted state cannot, by definition, be weighed as some superior accomplishment to the Camarilla's performance against a sect at the height of its capacity.

I damn well can weigh Lasombra exploitation of strategic advantages as a superior accomplishment, and I damn well will. Because not only is that Jyhad 101, it's being measured against the Camarilla's performance at the height of its own capacity as you pointed out yourself, and the Camarilla plays the exact same game when warfighting against the Sabbat.

I mean, you're the one who brought up the Battle of New York in the other thread. How did the Camarilla win that, again? Because if I remember right -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- that involved interrogation of Sabbat spirit slaves (insider information), radioactive blood slipped to Sabbat packs to trace their movements (knowledge of resource allocation and depletion), and daytime mass arson of Sabbat havens (element of surprise).

This response is a complete non sequitur unless you are arguing that whenever the Camarilla took out a Sabbat elder, it is less impressive than when the Lasombra take one out, which I would hope you were not doing considering the completely different circumstances and context each are waging their efforts in.

It's a non-sequitur, so long as you fail to notice Sabbat elders who survived the sect war, survived the sect war for a reason, and that reason certainly would not be for the Camarilla's lack of effort.

That you continue to want to hype the idea that the Lasombra could on top of everything else, be doing this solo and treating that as plausible when the one solo effort we get to see by a Lasombra who has almost every advantage possible fails, and that the book itself presents, again, all of Malenkov as going down to a group effort means you are going one way, and the material you are trying to extrapolate from is going a different way.

Well as you just so succinctly explained, who would be helping them? They lack their Sabbat resources, no Lasombra's going to trust another in this pursuit as it's every vampire for themselves, and the Camarilla certainly wouldn't be extending a helping hand -- least of all, for their being as depleted and diminished as the Sabbat.

That is, under typical circumstances. Because I have a distinct feeling you'll try to play off the pre-published story in which this happens as "the norm", despite arguing this entire time what happens in the pre-published story is wholly atypical and not reflective of the general situation writ large.

[MarkK]

My completely non-canon and entirely self-conceived belief is the most believable answer to why the Lasombra are defecting is their Antediluvian ordered them to via Dominate 10 and they did so.

Never realizing that they had no choice or were being told to.

I mean one of the things that motivated the Lasombra into defecting was that some of them think they outright saw Lasombra awake and screwing around and are now terrified, so, it's not the worst non canon theory I've ever heard?

[CTPhipps]

It's less impressive to note when their doing so was the will of their own antediluvian, manipulating their actions. That said Antediluvian possibly outright lowered the defenses of the Castle of Shadows to help it along.

It's also worth noting, and this was one of the more bemusing hypocrisies of the First Anarch Revolt, a bunch of vampires on the side of the Anarchs, were themselves elders. For instance, at least one of the Lasombra that rolled along with Gratiano for the attack had 4 centuries and change under his belt, and wasn't some unique freak of nature for being so.

Eh, every Elder is oppressed by an Elder older to them. Which goes to kind of show that conflict is one that in a more idealistic setting would result in diplomacy.

Lucita is one of the most Anarchy-Anarchs who ever Anarched but she survived to being 800 years old and thus became the EstablishmentTM in the Sabbat.

I always felt that was simultaneously a terrible thing for her character and probably distressingly realistic.

It's one of the rare good examples of the Batman quote, "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain." Because that is vampirism in a nutshell.

But more importantly than that, it's difficult to know for certain what actually happened at the Castle of Shadows, as Lasombra (the antediluvian) screwed with memories of the event of those there, on top of everything else.

My completely non-canon and entirely self-conceived belief is the most believable answer to why the Lasombra are defecting is their Antediluvian ordered them to via Dominate 10 and they did so.

Never realizing that they had no choice or were being told to.

I buy the Amis Nocti would decide the Sabbat were a lost cause and would cripple the organization before defecting but I think without another cause, they'd defect themselves and screw everyone else.

[MarkK]

So, where's this point when it comes to the people arguing the Lasombra were forsaking resources, allies, favors, and mutual protection by leaving the Sabbat in the first place? Because if they're not there to protect the elders from the Lasombra, they're not there to be exploited by the Lasombra thereby giving them reason to remain, either.

What does this have to do with the note that you're talking up the accomplishment of killing these elders in a way that both overstates the capacity of the Lasombra, understates that of the Camarilla, and ignores the completely different circumstances they are going at the lives of said elders in? You said this:

Especially for the fact the attempt to take said elder down was made, and it was successful. Which, given the targets involved, their political allegiances and nemeses, and their continued existence, means that was a feat the Camarilla, to that point, was incapable. This is the sect with the vampires who supposedly specialize in hunting Sabbat, dedicated anti-Sabbat strategies that have been honed to supposed perfection over the course of centuries, and the near-limitless resources at those specialists' disposal acting on behalf of an entire sect.

Statements other people are making do not change what an overstatement of affairs this is and how handwaving of the context of a given situation it is.

Which is why my note on what you were saying, was this:

You're glossing over that this is a time when elder resources are themselves not what they were, nor being a part of the Sabbat the source of protection and strength that it once was, seeing as half+ a clan that was part of providing that protection and strength just defected (and that's aside from losses to the Gehenna Crusade, and the Second Inquisition wipeouts), along with all the internal knowledge of practices and security that entails. The Lasombra going after their own have built advantages ranging from knowing about them indepth in ways the Camarilla could not possibly, to the initial surprise and treachery their betrayals will bring for the first part of these attacks.

You're basically talking like the Camarilla consist of slack jawed easily impressed yokels that would not understand the underlying differences in the situation, and nothing really bears that out.
You seem intent on considerably overtalking the Lasombra and considerably undertalking the Camarilla, and the game just doesn't support you doing so.

"Whataboutism" doesn't improve the things you are saying as far as hyping up the Lasombra and casting the Camarilla as incompetent by comparison. I am commenting on the things you are saying. If you are now trying to argue "you don't get to reply to me unless you also reply to the other posters", that's not really any kind of reply of substance to anything I've said. If you can't see that you're basically doing straight up the same thing that bothers you in the posts of others, I honestly don't know what to tell you there. Your posts are what they are. Your exaggerations are what they are.

That's...not a counterpoint. That's just an explanation of how the Lasombra have been able to do what the Camarilla couldn't. In an attempt to pretend that it was anything but a situation in which the Lasombra have been able to do what the Camarilla couldn't.

You talk up the Lasombra as impossible ultra badasses for "doing something the Camarilla couldn't" while ignoring that what makes it possible are conditions of depleted resources, strength, insider information, internal betrayal and sectarian defection, not some particular level of individual quality. The Lasombra doing something to Sabbat elders in a diminished, wrongfooted state cannot, by definition, be weighed as some superior accomplishment to the Camarilla's performance against a sect at the height of its capacity.

Those were the elders who died. The Lasombra are, by necessity, hunting the ones who didn't die. Because, y'know, they're not dead and all.

This response is a complete non sequitur unless you are arguing that whenever the Camarilla took out a Sabbat elder, it is less impressive than when the Lasombra take one out, which I would hope you were not doing considering the completely different circumstances and context each are waging their efforts in.

That you continue to want to hype the idea that the Lasombra could on top of everything else, be doing this solo and treating that as plausible when the one solo effort we get to see by a Lasombra who has almost every advantage possible fails, and that the book itself presents, again, all of Malenkov as going down to a group effort means you are going one way, and the material you are trying to extrapolate from is going a different way.

[MarkK]

...and how do you feel about the events of 1405, when Gratiano, his followers, and some Assamites raided the Castle of Shadows, killing almost all the clan's elders and allegedly slaying its Antediluvian, with only one reported survivor? And after that, going across Lasombra domains offering the choice of "join or die"?

Was that feasible or reasonable? Was that the mark of a clan of social Darwinists, or desperate suicidals? Did the Lasombra accept such a stupid thing?

Were the Lasombra that survived the purge in sufficient numbers to call them at the end a clan? Were the elders slain in 1405 and beyond just waiting patiently to be killed?

Did the fact it happened and worked prove to you the Lasombra is a capable clan, or does it prove the writers had no idea what they were doing?

It's less impressive to note when their doing so was the will of their own antediluvian, manipulating their actions. That said Antediluvian possibly outright lowered the defenses of the Castle of Shadows to help it along.

It's also worth noting, and this was one of the more bemusing hypocrisies of the First Anarch Revolt, a bunch of vampires on the side of the Anarchs, were themselves elders. For instance, at least one of the Lasombra that rolled along with Gratiano for the attack had 4 centuries and change under his belt, and wasn't some unique freak of nature for being so.

But more importantly than that, it's difficult to know for certain what actually happened at the Castle of Shadows, as Lasombra (the antediluvian) screwed with memories of the event of those there, on top of everything else.

[Theodrim]

Killing one elder for each defector in a mass defection simply isn't feasible or reasonable. It isn't the mark of a clan of Social Darwinists, it is the mark of desperate suicidals...I doubt the Lasombra would accept such a stupid thing.

But above all I doubt such insanity would work in even remotely sufficient numbers to call whatever arrives in the end a clan...

...and how do you feel about the events of 1405, when Gratiano, his followers, and some Assamites raided the Castle of Shadows, killing almost all the clan's elders and allegedly slaying its Antediluvian, with only one reported survivor? And after that, going across Lasombra domains offering the choice of "join or die"?

Was that feasible or reasonable? Was that the mark of a clan of social Darwinists, or desperate suicidals? Did the Lasombra accept such a stupid thing?

Were the Lasombra that survived the purge in sufficient numbers to call them at the end a clan? Were the elders slain in 1405 and beyond just waiting patiently to be killed?

Did the fact it happened and worked prove to you the Lasombra is a capable clan, or does it prove the writers had no idea what they were doing?

You're glossing over that this is a time when elder resources are themselves not what they were, nor being a part of the Sabbat the source of protection and strength that it once was, seeing as half+ a clan that was part of providing that protection and strength just defected...

So, where's this point when it comes to the people arguing the Lasombra were forsaking resources, allies, favors, and mutual protection by leaving the Sabbat in the first place? Because if they're not there to protect the elders from the Lasombra, they're not there to be exploited by the Lasombra thereby giving them reason to remain, either.

...The Lasombra going after their own have built advantages ranging from knowing about them indepth in ways the Camarilla could not possibly, to the initial surprise and treachery their betrayals will bring for the first part of these attacks.

That's...not a counterpoint. That's just an explanation of how the Lasombra have been able to do what the Camarilla couldn't. In an attempt to pretend that it was anything but a situation in which the Lasombra have been able to do what the Camarilla couldn't.

Sabbat elders still all the same died at the height of the sect war (as did Camarilla elders, of course)...

Those were the elders who died. The Lasombra are, by necessity, hunting the ones who didn't die. Because, y'know, they're not dead and all.

This isn't a conversation about the Hecata.

[MarkK]

Is it? There's only about 2000 Lasombra in the world. Only half of them are defecting to the Camarilla at most.

You don't need that many cities to handle the defection rate.

Maybe a few dozen globally at best.

It's enough of a cause of concern that the Amici themselves are concerned by it, and they're the ones who put the entire initiative forward. If the plan's masterminds are concerned about that, you kind of have to ignore the game to say nah, it won't be a problem.

You can't really say the deal was well thought out/bargained but then ignore the problems the people who themselves arranged for the deal foresee with it. If they're competent enough to make a deal that's good, they're competent enough to have concerns about it that would need to be treated in a valid way. Otherwise it's just arbitrarily picking when they count as competent and don't.

[CTPhipps]

Well no, the context given by the game is that any number of Princes won't look at him as the model to follow, that's the whole thorn in the deal for the Lasombra that is their cause of greatest concern.

Is it? There's only about 2000 Lasombra in the world. Only half of them are defecting to the Camarilla at most.

You don't need that many cities to handle the defection rate.

Maybe a few dozen globally at best.

[MarkK]

I think the context is meant to be that it establishes a foot in the door and a precedent. Even in the context of the game, the Princes just look at Prince Jackson as a model to follow.

It also means there's ONE place to transfer Lasombra to and from there you can do more.

Well no, the context given by the game is that any number of Princes won't look at him as the model to follow, that's the whole thorn in the deal for the Lasombra that is their cause of greatest concern.

[CTPhipps]

Sierra's terms are also something of a failure state given the explicit note that every Camarilla Prince will interpret this deal however they want. She can insist on the fine print all she wants. Princes will do what they want.

I think the context is meant to be that it establishes a foot in the door and a precedent. Even in the context of the game, the Princes just look at Prince Jackson as a model to follow.

It also means there's ONE place to transfer Lasombra to and from there you can do more.

[MarkK]

Mind you, the Followers of Set become an excellent reason why they might not.

I admit, though, I have issues with the Followers of Set getting handled that way. As much as I get accused of treating the Camarilla as mustache twirling Dick Dastardly and Natasha Fatale types, I think the Camarilla either letting the Followers of Set's delegation get blown up or arranging it themselves is something that makes them look far cruder than they are. Basically being a group that invites you into the house and goes, "SUCKER." However, the thing is that they're not the Freys (who were the only house in Westeros stupid enough to do this) and it wasn't a Red Wedding where the Followers of Set were crippled by the act.

They'd just be pissed off.

Also, I feel like the Followers of Set are not the kind of people who would ever be taken in enough by the Camarilla to let something like this happen. I'd have believed something like Keminitiri blowing up the delegation or Mithras or even the Second Inquisition but this just makes the Camarilla look like vindictive morons.

And since the delegation promptly went to the Anarchs to get THEIR shit together for revenge, shows why it was a dumb idea.

Everybody in vampire gets played by somebody in vampire at some point. The Camarilla got outmoved by whoever wanted the negotiations with the Setites to fail (possibly the Assamites themselves). As a sect, they did not want those negotiations to fail. Someone (or someones) did, sure. But no sect or elder or clan or methuselah or even antediluvian is immune to getting outplayed on things.

Well, maybe Saulot if you read all his plotting a certain way.