Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[CTPhipps]

Alright, I stand corrected. I was assuming they were working together and wrong.

[MarkK]

7. In fact, Marcus Vitel is the one who arranged the Amis Noctis' plan to defect to the Lasombra. That's why Talley us working for them. What does a 2000 year old Methuselah get from allying the Sabbat Lasombra with the Camarilla when he's an Anarch? Who the fuck knows but that's how Methusalehs work.

Here are sections of the book saying no such thing and indeed the opposite:

Only in the last year did Talley receive a new assignment
from the Friends of the Night: he was responsible
for selecting Lasombra delegates to parley with the
Camarilla and negotiate the clan’s entry into that sect.
He was trusted, as he had loyally served the clan for
half a millennium and he hadn’t fallen to savagery like
many of his fellow Keepers. He was the man possessing
the greatest familiarity with North American Lasombra
activities and personalities, and he would be the one
responsible for planning out their offerings, even if it
required the spilling of blood.

Some Lasombra would have rebuked the instruction,
declared their elders traitors to the Blood, and rallied a
new clan rebellion. Not Talley. He left Emperor Vitel’s
service to accomplish his clan’s aims, handpicking his
childer Sierra and Malenkov for the task in Chicago, and
choosing a dozen other Magisters for domains including
L.A., Seattle, Houston, and Philadelphia. He feels unrattled
by the news that he will soon belong to a new sect.

No Compete Clause: Talley hasn’t stopped serving
Vitel, though Vitel does not serve the Amici Noctis.
Talley is playing a dangerous game, weighing up
the threat of betraying either party. He’s not given
to breaking a contract, but is aware of how Vitel is
successfully plugged in to many mortal intelligence
agencies, while the Amici Noctis concern themselves
more with Kindred affairs. Talley needs to decide
whether it’s possible to continue serving both
and who it benefits to move one way or the other.

The plan was an Amici Noctis plan, not Vitel's, to the point that continuing to serve either could have forced Talley to betray one or the other.

Where in the book Chicago By Night does it say that Vitel arranged the plan to defect to the Camarilla? If I missed a page or paragraph, that's fine, it happens, but the text of the book I've read treats the Amici as the ones who arranged the plan, and who assigned Talley (not asked, assigned), the job of making it happen.

[CTPhipps]

1. They are the ones who most Lasoimbra turn to for the matters of Clan ideology and power, though. It's why they get the option of deciding whether you can diablerize or not a fellow Lasombra. The good of the Clan is the good of the Amis Nocti and vice versa from the majority of perspectives--mostly because the majority of Lasombra wish to join. It was also they who endorsed Gratiano and joined the Sabbat in the first place when most vampire leadership would have proclaimed him a monster.

3. Internalized or not, the Camarilla is a much more effective place if you want to accumulate power in the mortal world. The Sabbat may or may not be right about the Antediluvians but the obligations for sect membership in the former are far more than the latter. One is a military you belong to and the other is a nation you are a part of. If you want to make a fortune, it's much easier in the Ivory Tower.

7. In fact, Marcus Vitel is the one who arranged the Amis Noctis' plan to defect to the Lasombra. That's why Talley us working for them. What does a 2000 year old Methuselah get from allying the Sabbat Lasombra with the Camarilla when he's an Anarch? Who the fuck knows but that's how Methusalehs work.

9. Survival of the fittest is an ideology that coincidentally always proclaims the winners to be in the right. At least the Lasombra's version.

10. I think it seems very much based around the Gehenna War and how the Sabbat seem to have been "all in" on that. The Sabbat were winning and destroying vast numbers of Elders but they were also apparently suffering massive casualties in the process too. I can see how a group that is very much about ordering other people into the jaws of the beast are less enthusiastic when it's their turn.

Avoiding that was a matter of survival but I don't think it's against the text to argue that the Lasombra had a stronger bargaining position than people have been suggesting. The Camarilla was not in a great shape itself and those wounds allowed the Lasombra to slide into the halls of power that they might not normally be able to--another reason, perhaps, why they were willing to make the defection.

11. I admit I totally fanboy over the Lasombra. They're not as cool as the Tzimisce but I think of the Ventrue as the inferior of both in scheming.

[MarkK]

So, things

1. The Amis Noctis has gone from being an internal Clan based phenomenon competing against the Sabbat power structure to actually being the heads of the Clan. They have gained vast amounts of power over their Clan and were already very powerful.

That doesn't benefit the Lasombra as a clan, that benefits the Amici Noctis as a power group within, and the book explicitly notes that they've acknowledged they're going to kill a bunch of useful members of their clan to gain that power and are just holding out hope that only so many of them will die. When part of your deal has to including straight up hoping something will work out, maybe that deal isn't that great. The interests of the Amici Noctis only fitfully align with their the clan as a whole, as the Muslim Lasombra of Andalusia in the DA period could tell you were they not busy being dead. (And the way the Amici handled the Shadow Reconquista or attempted to was one of the things that helped lay the groundwork for the First Anarch Revolt from the resentment it bred. Which killed significant numbers of the Amici Noctis. Their sense of priorities and track record in managing their clan during a crisis does not have great in game precedent.)

3. The Lasombra have previously been kept from accumulating anything resembling real mortal wealth and influence by the fact that until they're Elders, they're doing rituals for half of their nights with their packs. Now they have the option of gaining massive amounts of mortal power that was previously denied them by the Black Hand's anti-human bias.

There was an entire faction of Sabbat Lasombra that did nothing but accumulate real mortal wealth and influence. They were really good at it. The main thing that held the Lasombra back from accumulating more was other Lasombra childer over the centuries of the Sabbat's development internalizing that anti-human bias, and the comparative skill atrophy that came with that attitude. They shared said attitude just fine. A secondary thing was, however they might kill someone for suggesting the idea, that as a clan as a whole (as opposed to the Kings and Queens of Shadow), they'd fallen behind a step compared to the Camarilla at skill with influencing mortals. The Lasombra of New York for instance held significant influence and wealth in the city (for all that they were frozen out of Manhattan and Wall Street, as a testament to that, y'know, sometimes other vampires are better than them at that thing). It's just that the Camarilla found it relatively easy to wipe out, damage and remove when the time came.

7. Marcus Vitel is the Lord of Washington D.C. and while an Anarch, helped arrange the defection so the Lasombra now have access to Federal United States power in a way that the Camarilla is now entirely dependent on them for.

This is a skewed take on things. Marcus Vitel is explicitly not aligned to his fellow Lasombra, or the Camarilla, or anyone but the Anarchs (and even them, loosely at best). Talley himself had to note that serving Vitel and the Amici was to serve two entirely separate entities, and that ultimately he'd have to pick one (and then that decision got made for him, in a way that left him unable to serve anyone anyway). They have no more access to his power than anyone not Marcus Vitel does. You don't name yourself "Emperor" if you think everyone else aren't your subordinates. He's not the Camarilla Lasombra's friend, ally or contact. He's not their anything unless they take the first step of kneel before Vitel. And your own first point is about how this whole move made the Amici Noctis the heads of the clan, so they're not about to do that one. The member of the Lasombra that had the ties to Vitel, (that even had actual channels into the mortal world of Washington DC of his own no less) that was affiliated to the Amici Noctis that was part of the join the Camarilla plan was Talley, and they booted him out and had him put under blood hunt as a reward for his success.

9. The Lasombra have ALREADY performed a mass culling of Elders before in the First Anarch Revolt and it made their clan stronger.

Stronger in some ways, weaker in others. The dead pile of pre Revolt Amici Noctis members are certainly now too busy being dead to do something like warn their successors that they're doing more or less the same thing they did during the Reconquista.

10. The Ventrue having lost the Brujah and Gangrel and been unable to protect the Tremere have shown that they don't have the power they need. They need the Lasombra and Assamites. The Lasombra and Assamites do not need the Ventrue.

Again, the idea that the Lasombra came into this deal from a position of strength and that they didn't think they needed to make it, that it was just one more gambit for even more power basically requires laser focusing on one single young Lasombra and her perspective and ignoring a variety of other material. Even the guy who organized the entire effort spoke about it in terms of survival.

This continues to be a take that requires ignoring printed setting material.

I think the author intent, though, which we have the benefit of actually being able to ask Klara Hobel or The Gentleman Gamer about, was the Lasombra got a decent enough deal from Jackson but that other Princes may be harder or softer.

Have you asked them if they agree with you that the Lasombra joining the Camarilla was some brilliant bit of manipulative deception for which they have not in any way suffered and lost nothing meaningful? From the way you talk about all this you make it seem like the Lasombra are so powerful and hyper competent that they didn't need to join anyone in the first place and do whatever organization they decide to join some huge favour from on high. For all the gripes that there are about certain posts that have been made praising the Ventrue's competence in the last few threads as over praising them, this is starting to feel like their mirror image.

[CTPhipps]

Comparing the Camarilla to the Illuminati isn't actually doing the Cam any favors. Lets remember that the actual Illuminati were a bunch of anti-establishment dissidents that were trying to use the spread of Masonic orders to hide their activities and proliferate their philosophy, but failed utterly because they couldn't keep their mouths shut after a sense of success and their "secret society" stopped being secret to people that could order them to be executed.

And, of course, the modern Cam in V5 isn't exactly going to convince most that their way is how you rule mortals as their masters. Like the real Illuminati they screwed up royal and got their teeth kicked in because they couldn't keep secrets, and have responded by becoming more divorced from actually ruling over humanity; instead of hiding from humanity.

It's a bad time to be a vampire, it's true.

The Sabbat have suffered some nasty bruises but so have the Cammies.

The Anarchs are ascendant but they're doing so by becoming more Sabbat-like.

And the Lasombra probably DID make a mistake because we're getting the Sabbat book now, which means that they're not going to be Antediluvian chow.

[CTPhipps]

Even with all that information the decision is unreasonable.

1) How is it possible that Lasombra members are negotiate the Cam without much reprocussion, but defecting would certainly lead to you either having to kill or being killed before getting to the Cam (and having more protection available).

2) I don't see how it is possible that once the negotiations concluded the defecting group didn't form a murder party and masacred their way through a Sabat stronghold.

Eh,

You're entirely welcome to have the opinion it was a bad deal from the start. However, I just interpreted it through the lens that it was the Lasombra manipulating Kevin Jackson rather than the reverse. The argument basically going through the following bullet points:

* The Lasombra know the Camarilla will be skeptical at a mass defection.
* The Lasombra need to give the Cammies something concrete that makes the Lasombra look like they're sacrificing something real.
* The Lasombra don't actually want to give up anything.
* The Lasombra know when they defect it will be an enormous shitstorm.
* The Lasombra know plenty of Sabbat will try to kill them for defecting because, you know, treason.
* The Archbishop of Milan, to defect, had to kill every single Sabbat vampire in Milan.
* The Lasombra decide that they will offer up the Sabbat they're going to have to kill on the way out anyway.
* The Lasombra will presumably target Sabbat fanatics, loyalists, those who wouldn't defect, and people they personally hate as vampires do.
* Like Order 66, the initial Lasombra murders will be pretty easy because no one is going to see it coming. If you're a Ventrue Antitribu, you don't get in your coffin and then expect you and the rest of your pack to murdered by your priest. And then it's like 5-6 ashes to be handed over to the priest's other Lasombra friends who want to defect.
* This is also notably the deal for CHICAGO but not necessarily every other area. All it does is set a precedent that other Princes will look to.

Why would the Camarilla accept this?

* Because it fucks up the Sabbat (but not Clan Lasombra necessarily)
* It LOOKS like it will hurt the Lasombra Clan
* They assume the Lasombra might have a loyalty to their Elders (HA!)
* It means the defecting Lasombra are burning their boats after arriving in the New World (which is a good thing to guarantee)

[Heavy Arms]

Comparing the Camarilla to the Illuminati isn't actually doing the Cam any favors. Lets remember that the actual Illuminati were a bunch of anti-establishment dissidents that were trying to use the spread of Masonic orders to hide their activities and proliferate their philosophy, but failed utterly because they couldn't keep their mouths shut after a sense of success and their "secret society" stopped being secret to people that could order them to be executed.

And, of course, the modern Cam in V5 isn't exactly going to convince most that their way is how you rule mortals as their masters. Like the real Illuminati they screwed up royal and got their teeth kicked in because they couldn't keep secrets, and have responded by becoming more divorced from actually ruling over humanity; instead of hiding from humanity.

[Ignithas]

Even with all that information the decision is unreasonable.

1) How is it possible that Lasombra members are negotiate the Cam without much reprocussion, but defecting would certainly lead to you either having to kill or being killed before getting to the Cam (and having more protection available).

2) I don't see how it is possible that once the negotiations concluded the defecting group didn't form a murder party and masacred their way through a Sabat stronghold.

[CTPhipps]

Ragged Robin

I dunno, it seems like they've benefited tremendously.

1. The Amis Noctis has gone from being an internal Clan based phenomenon competing against the Sabbat power structure to actually being the heads of the Clan. They have gained vast amounts of power over their Clan and were already very powerful.

2. The doubling of Lasombra availability of power and titles. The Lasombra can now build power bases within the ranks of the Camarilla that they previously did not have access to. As we see in LA By Night and Seattle by Night by Jason Carl, the Lasombra are already filling the ranks of important political positions. Shadows of New York ends with a Lasombra Primogen in New York.

3. The Lasombra have previously been kept from accumulating anything resembling real mortal wealth and influence by the fact that until they're Elders, they're doing rituals for half of their nights with their packs. Now they have the option of gaining massive amounts of mortal power that was previously denied them by the Black Hand's anti-human bias.

4. The ludicrous idea that Lasombra "Civil Liberites" were respected in the murderous death cult of the Sabbat where regular murder dueling and sanctioned diablerie were things. Now the Lasombra are protected from the Rite of Destruction. The Camarilla is far less quick on the "murder you" argument as we see in Shadows of New York where their response to a Lasombra they dislike is to do mind games versus rip off their head.

5. Speaking ot not being cannon fodder for an insane death cult, the fact is that only a handful of Lasomrba are going to be at the top of the heap and the majority are not going to be able to enjoy the benefits of being death gods among mortals because they were sent on insane missions to kil Camarilla elders or Antediluvians.

6. The sheer amount of new territory the Lasombra can claim as their domain given the Camarilla does not recognize Anarch territories as their own plus so many positions opened by the Beckoning and Second Inquisition. The Sabbat is in retreat but the Camarilla, even with its Anarch problems, is now full of new places to gain Lasombra in. If Kevin Jackson can become Prince of Chicago then who knows what Lasombra Neonates or Ancilla (or Elders) can take.

7. Marcus Vitel is the Lord of Washington D.C. and while an Anarch, helped arrange the defection so the Lasombra now have access to Federal United States power in a way that the Camarilla is now entirely dependent on them for.

8. The Lasombra will presumably no longer be all enslaved by the Vinculum that tied them to the fate of a bunch of potential losers due to the roll of a dice.

9. The Lasombra have ALREADY performed a mass culling of Elders before in the First Anarch Revolt and it made their clan stronger.

10. The Ventrue having lost the Brujah and Gangrel and been unable to protect the Tremere have shown that they don't have the power they need. They need the Lasombra and Assamites. The Lasombra and Assamites do not need the Ventrue.

Your list grants me a better scope of how much of a disaster the Lasombra have been done this edition. Thanks for this.

I dunno, I mean, "Your Civil Liberties are protected by the Sabbat" kind of underscores they're REALLY stretching the benefits of being in a suicidal militant cult over joining the vampire Illuminati.

Sabbat: "You can die for Caine!"

Camarilla: "You can rule mortals as their master."

Just sayin.

[CTPhipps]

That take disregards a bunch of the material in Chicago by Night on said defection in favour of basically the smallest piece of it in order to try and view it as favourably as possible is the problem, as noted above. Disregards stuff even in that chapter really (and also stuff in the adventure later in the book). Sierra's personal perspective doesn't really change that.

Perhaps.

I think the author intent, though, which we have the benefit of actually being able to ask Klara Hobel or The Gentleman Gamer about, was the Lasombra got a decent enough deal from Jackson but that other Princes may be harder or softer.

[Shakanaka]

Cons as a individual Lasombra
-Complete collapse of clan cohesion and support as the clan due to mass destruction of Eldars and heavy neonate/anchilla casualties and the sheer scope of personal betrayals, Clan numbers and generational status is so decimated they are most likely a bloodline at best. your certainly not a high clan anymore just because you look good in a dress.
-Potential material loses in terms of resoarces in the fallout
-loss of any rank or titles you had
- Eternal hatred of all remaining Sabbat lasombra who personally know you.
-Eternal eminity of the Sabbat
-Personal Emnity of a large number of Established Sabbat members who personally know you.
-Vaulderie issues in general
-Going down in history as the the dumbest, weakest and most cowardly of clans for wrecking your entire clan and sect after realizing you were wrong about everything and being forced to kill your own clan mates at the orders of the Ventrue. Even the Giovanni can look down on you and rightfully so.
-Entering a sect were not only are your political strengths wiped but you rank lower than the Nosferatu in terms of clout.
-The fact the Ventrue were right about everything forever and they are never ever going to let you forget it or let you near power ever again.
-The actual odds of taking a Sabbat Eldar in a fight arnt good
-Your clanmates may decide it's you whose getting thrown under the bus.
-if you're on a path prepare to have some sort of psychotic break as your concious catches up with you paths are illigal in the Carmarilla.
-your civil liberties have just been massively curtailed.

Your list grants me a better scope of how much of a disaster the Lasombra have been done this edition. Thanks for this.

[MarkK]

I should note that we don't have to really judge how the Lasombra view the whole defection thing. The chapter about their defection is in CHICAGO BY NIGHT 5th Edition and the adventure in that book is about their defection and why they think they got a great deal out of it.

At least that was my take.

Sierra seems to have thought she trapped Kevin Jackson and may have manipulated him into it in the first place since she brought her "brother" to be killed from the beginning,

That take disregards a bunch of the material in Chicago by Night on said defection in favour of basically the smallest piece of it in order to try and view it as favourably as possible is the problem, as noted above. Disregards stuff even in that chapter really (and also stuff in the adventure later in the book). Sierra's personal perspective doesn't really change that.

[CTPhipps]

I should note that we don't have to really judge how the Lasombra view the whole defection thing. The chapter about their defection is in CHICAGO BY NIGHT 5th Edition and the adventure in that book is about their defection and why they think they got a great deal out of it.

At least that was my take.

Sierra seems to have thought she trapped Kevin Jackson and may have manipulated him into it in the first place since she brought her "brother" to be killed from the beginning,

[Ragged Robin]

Well it doesn't work for you and I hope you continue your version of the old version.

Personally, the Lasombra probably would have been better at home in the Camarilla from the beginning. After all they'd never fit in a sect that emphasizes egalitarianism and freedom.

I am really surprised you don't see the Camarilla's demand as nothingburger, though. The Lasombra won that one by a long shot. It's being paid to do something you'd do for free.

Yeah it's going pretty well, I'm syncronizing the fluff came before while allowing for an approximation of developements smoothly enough. So far the only major changes are the extermination of the Caitff and gehenna's cancelation in the face of the 2nd inquisition.

V5 carmarilla works a little better because the Carmarillas way nastier but it's still way to restrictive for the Lasombra's predelictions.

The claim the carmilla's demand is a nothing burger is so bizzare I cannot even realistically begin to reply, instead I'm going to write a rough list of pro and cons.


Cons as a individual Lasombra
-Complete collapse of clan cohesion and support as the clan due to mass destruction of Eldars and heavy neonate/anchilla casualties and the sheer scope of personal betrayals, Clan numbers and generational status is so decimated they are most likely a bloodline at best. your certainly not a high clan anymore just because you look good in a dress.
-Potential material loses in terms of resoarces in the fallout
-loss of any rank or titles you had
- Eternal hatred of all remaining Sabbat lasombra who personally know you.
-Eternal eminity of the Sabbat
-Personal Emnity of a large number of Established Sabbat members who personally know you.
-Vaulderie issues in general
-Going down in history as the the dumbest, weakest and most cowardly of clans for wrecking your entire sect after realizing you were wrong about everything and being forced to kill your own clan mates at the orders of the Ventrue. Even the Giovanni can look down on you and rightfully so.
-Entering a sect were not only are your political strengths wiped but you rank lower than the Nosferatu in terms of clout.
-The fact the Ventrue were right about everything forever and they are never ever going to let you forget it or let you near power ever again.
-The actual odds of taking a Sabbat Eldar in a fight arnt good
-Your clanmates may decide it's you whose getting thrown under the bus.
-if you're on a path prepare to have some sort of psychotic break as your concious catches up with you paths are illigal in the Carmarilla.
-your civil liberties have just been massively curtailed.

Pros
-it's easier to be a humaine lasombra in the sect
-their are some Lasombra already here.
-they might have a better chance at Gehenna......maybe
-you look snazzy in your dark dress at elysium.

What's all this about Lasombra being "prideful" or "fucked"? It's a rite of passage for prospective Lasombra to lose everything, endure it and bounce back. They know humiliation in a way that many Ventrue never had to. "Oooh, I'm not a bishop anymore!" "My pack is gone!" "I have to kiss Ventrue ass!" Those Lasombra who can't get over it and make themselves powerful again are mistakes and we know the Amici Noctis policy on mistakes.

Firstly that's something they do to the initiates as a test before they're given the embrace not something the initiates do to themselves, frankly if you did it to yourself as a human the Clan would never take you-it's a test as a human not Lasombra Mo, Lasombra Mo is to be the apex predator not the Opossum. Secondly this is noted in the clanbook to backfire if the Childer find out that what their sire did.

[Vendrin]

I disagree but YMMV.

I note that the Lasombra are one of the most popular LARP clans for the Camarilla. Simply put they're a sexy, devious, and elegant clan that fits well with the Camarilla. This just makes it easier to play them.

Bluntly, I don't think there's a good reason why the Lasombra would stay with a sinking ship and think they got a good deal.

I think basing tabletop rules and lore on "Larp attendance" is one of the reasons V5 had such a mixed reaction. All thanks the wannabe Dracula who was the designer.