Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[MarkK]

So, things

1. The Amis Noctis has gone from being an internal Clan based phenomenon competing against the Sabbat power structure to actually being the heads of the Clan. They have gained vast amounts of power over their Clan and were already very powerful.

That doesn't benefit the Lasombra as a clan, that benefits the Amici Noctis as a power group within, and the book explicitly notes that they've acknowledged they're going to kill a bunch of useful members of their clan to gain that power and are just holding out hope that only so many of them will die. When part of your deal has to including straight up hoping something will work out, maybe that deal isn't that great. The interests of the Amici Noctis only fitfully align with their the clan as a whole, as the Muslim Lasombra of Andalusia in the DA period could tell you were they not busy being dead. (And the way the Amici handled the Shadow Reconquista or attempted to was one of the things that helped lay the groundwork for the First Anarch Revolt from the resentment it bred. Which killed significant numbers of the Amici Noctis. Their sense of priorities and track record in managing their clan during a crisis does not have great in game precedent.)

3. The Lasombra have previously been kept from accumulating anything resembling real mortal wealth and influence by the fact that until they're Elders, they're doing rituals for half of their nights with their packs. Now they have the option of gaining massive amounts of mortal power that was previously denied them by the Black Hand's anti-human bias.

There was an entire faction of Sabbat Lasombra that did nothing but accumulate real mortal wealth and influence. They were really good at it. The main thing that held the Lasombra back from accumulating more was other Lasombra childer over the centuries of the Sabbat's development internalizing that anti-human bias, and the comparative skill atrophy that came with that attitude. They shared said attitude just fine. A secondary thing was, however they might kill someone for suggesting the idea, that as a clan as a whole (as opposed to the Kings and Queens of Shadow), they'd fallen behind a step compared to the Camarilla at skill with influencing mortals. The Lasombra of New York for instance held significant influence and wealth in the city (for all that they were frozen out of Manhattan and Wall Street, as a testament to that, y'know, sometimes other vampires are better than them at that thing). It's just that the Camarilla found it relatively easy to wipe out, damage and remove when the time came.

7. Marcus Vitel is the Lord of Washington D.C. and while an Anarch, helped arrange the defection so the Lasombra now have access to Federal United States power in a way that the Camarilla is now entirely dependent on them for.

This is a skewed take on things. Marcus Vitel is explicitly not aligned to his fellow Lasombra, or the Camarilla, or anyone but the Anarchs (and even them, loosely at best). Talley himself had to note that serving Vitel and the Amici was to serve two entirely separate entities, and that ultimately he'd have to pick one (and then that decision got made for him, in a way that left him unable to serve anyone anyway). They have no more access to his power than anyone not Marcus Vitel does. You don't name yourself "Emperor" if you think everyone else aren't your subordinates. He's not the Camarilla Lasombra's friend, ally or contact. He's not their anything unless they take the first step of kneel before Vitel. And your own first point is about how this whole move made the Amici Noctis the heads of the clan, so they're not about to do that one. The member of the Lasombra that had the ties to Vitel, (that even had actual channels into the mortal world of Washington DC of his own no less) that was affiliated to the Amici Noctis that was part of the join the Camarilla plan was Talley, and they booted him out and had him put under blood hunt as a reward for his success.

9. The Lasombra have ALREADY performed a mass culling of Elders before in the First Anarch Revolt and it made their clan stronger.

Stronger in some ways, weaker in others. The dead pile of pre Revolt Amici Noctis members are certainly now too busy being dead to do something like warn their successors that they're doing more or less the same thing they did during the Reconquista.

10. The Ventrue having lost the Brujah and Gangrel and been unable to protect the Tremere have shown that they don't have the power they need. They need the Lasombra and Assamites. The Lasombra and Assamites do not need the Ventrue.

Again, the idea that the Lasombra came into this deal from a position of strength and that they didn't think they needed to make it, that it was just one more gambit for even more power basically requires laser focusing on one single young Lasombra and her perspective and ignoring a variety of other material. Even the guy who organized the entire effort spoke about it in terms of survival.

This continues to be a take that requires ignoring printed setting material.

I think the author intent, though, which we have the benefit of actually being able to ask Klara Hobel or The Gentleman Gamer about, was the Lasombra got a decent enough deal from Jackson but that other Princes may be harder or softer.

Have you asked them if they agree with you that the Lasombra joining the Camarilla was some brilliant bit of manipulative deception for which they have not in any way suffered and lost nothing meaningful? From the way you talk about all this you make it seem like the Lasombra are so powerful and hyper competent that they didn't need to join anyone in the first place and do whatever organization they decide to join some huge favour from on high. For all the gripes that there are about certain posts that have been made praising the Ventrue's competence in the last few threads as over praising them, this is starting to feel like their mirror image.

[CTPhipps]

1. They are the ones who most Lasoimbra turn to for the matters of Clan ideology and power, though. It's why they get the option of deciding whether you can diablerize or not a fellow Lasombra. The good of the Clan is the good of the Amis Nocti and vice versa from the majority of perspectives--mostly because the majority of Lasombra wish to join. It was also they who endorsed Gratiano and joined the Sabbat in the first place when most vampire leadership would have proclaimed him a monster.

3. Internalized or not, the Camarilla is a much more effective place if you want to accumulate power in the mortal world. The Sabbat may or may not be right about the Antediluvians but the obligations for sect membership in the former are far more than the latter. One is a military you belong to and the other is a nation you are a part of. If you want to make a fortune, it's much easier in the Ivory Tower.

7. In fact, Marcus Vitel is the one who arranged the Amis Noctis' plan to defect to the Lasombra. That's why Talley us working for them. What does a 2000 year old Methuselah get from allying the Sabbat Lasombra with the Camarilla when he's an Anarch? Who the fuck knows but that's how Methusalehs work.

9. Survival of the fittest is an ideology that coincidentally always proclaims the winners to be in the right. At least the Lasombra's version.

10. I think it seems very much based around the Gehenna War and how the Sabbat seem to have been "all in" on that. The Sabbat were winning and destroying vast numbers of Elders but they were also apparently suffering massive casualties in the process too. I can see how a group that is very much about ordering other people into the jaws of the beast are less enthusiastic when it's their turn.

Avoiding that was a matter of survival but I don't think it's against the text to argue that the Lasombra had a stronger bargaining position than people have been suggesting. The Camarilla was not in a great shape itself and those wounds allowed the Lasombra to slide into the halls of power that they might not normally be able to--another reason, perhaps, why they were willing to make the defection.

11. I admit I totally fanboy over the Lasombra. They're not as cool as the Tzimisce but I think of the Ventrue as the inferior of both in scheming.

[MarkK]

7. In fact, Marcus Vitel is the one who arranged the Amis Noctis' plan to defect to the Lasombra. That's why Talley us working for them. What does a 2000 year old Methuselah get from allying the Sabbat Lasombra with the Camarilla when he's an Anarch? Who the fuck knows but that's how Methusalehs work.

Here are sections of the book saying no such thing and indeed the opposite:

Only in the last year did Talley receive a new assignment
from the Friends of the Night: he was responsible
for selecting Lasombra delegates to parley with the
Camarilla and negotiate the clan’s entry into that sect.
He was trusted, as he had loyally served the clan for
half a millennium and he hadn’t fallen to savagery like
many of his fellow Keepers. He was the man possessing
the greatest familiarity with North American Lasombra
activities and personalities, and he would be the one
responsible for planning out their offerings, even if it
required the spilling of blood.

Some Lasombra would have rebuked the instruction,
declared their elders traitors to the Blood, and rallied a
new clan rebellion. Not Talley. He left Emperor Vitel’s
service to accomplish his clan’s aims, handpicking his
childer Sierra and Malenkov for the task in Chicago, and
choosing a dozen other Magisters for domains including
L.A., Seattle, Houston, and Philadelphia. He feels unrattled
by the news that he will soon belong to a new sect.

No Compete Clause: Talley hasn’t stopped serving
Vitel, though Vitel does not serve the Amici Noctis.
Talley is playing a dangerous game, weighing up
the threat of betraying either party. He’s not given
to breaking a contract, but is aware of how Vitel is
successfully plugged in to many mortal intelligence
agencies, while the Amici Noctis concern themselves
more with Kindred affairs. Talley needs to decide
whether it’s possible to continue serving both
and who it benefits to move one way or the other.

The plan was an Amici Noctis plan, not Vitel's, to the point that continuing to serve either could have forced Talley to betray one or the other.

Where in the book Chicago By Night does it say that Vitel arranged the plan to defect to the Camarilla? If I missed a page or paragraph, that's fine, it happens, but the text of the book I've read treats the Amici as the ones who arranged the plan, and who assigned Talley (not asked, assigned), the job of making it happen.

[CTPhipps]

Alright, I stand corrected. I was assuming they were working together and wrong.

[MarkK]

1. They are the ones who most Lasoimbra turn to for the matters of Clan ideology and power, though. It's why they get the option of deciding whether you can diablerize or not a fellow Lasombra. The good of the Clan is the good of the Amis Nocti and vice versa from the majority of perspectives--mostly because the majority of Lasombra wish to join. It was also they who endorsed Gratiano and joined the Sabbat in the first place when most vampire leadership would have proclaimed him a monster.

Again, huge chunks of dead Lasombra would disagree that the good of the clan is the good of the Amici Noctis. That majority of perspectives sometimes only exists because the sizable pile of people without that perspective died (and in the case of the Reconquista, that was an actual screw up of the Amici Noctis, who overall wanted the Muslim Lasombra and Christian Lasombra to reach a peaceful accord that ignored the mortal crusades around them and started to outright refuse to arbitrate Reconquista related disputes. Their attempts to make that accord happen and general fractious bungling of that desire helped put enough hate in the clan in all directions to give fertile ground to the Anarch Revolt. The Amici near functionally broke in half as the Reconquista went on, and both Christian and Muslim Lasombra ended up furious with the attempts of Amici elders at handling them in terms of later receptiveness to Gratiano going "hey, what if we kill our elders?". Now again the Lasombra are faced with a clan wide crisis over which the Amici have asserted themselves to determine the resolution of, not necessarily in a way that chunks of the clan are happy with. History repeats and all that.)

3. Internalized or not, the Camarilla is a much more effective place if you want to accumulate power in the mortal world. The Sabbat may or may not be right about the Antediluvians but the obligations for sect membership in the former are far more than the latter. One is a military you belong to and the other is a nation you are a part of. If you want to make a fortune, it's much easier in the Ivory Tower.

That has nothing to do with that the thing that was holding the Lasombra back from focusing on mortal power, was the Lasombra, who were the ones who helped create that anti human bias, is my point. Not being busy with rituals. That a Sabbat Lasombra group showed they could be in the Sabbat and still be good at mortal world maneuvers is something of a demonstration there. You talked otherwise like there were limitations being forced on them by other clans or people or so forth.

9. Survival of the fittest is an ideology that coincidentally always proclaims the winners to be in the right. At least the Lasombra's version.

That doesn't actually make it correct. That makes it a thing that they think is correct. And ultimately abandoning the sect that they themselves helped found and rule would by more introspective vampires perhaps be taken as a statement that in the end perhaps they did not make themselves stronger, just different. But introspection is not a particularly noted Lasombra strength. One of their noted things is being good at moving from victory to victory, but getting thrown off by getting derailed by setbacks. All clans have their flaws.

Avoiding that was a matter of survival but I don't think it's against the text to argue that the Lasombra had a stronger bargaining position than people have been suggesting. The Camarilla was not in a great shape itself and those wounds allowed the Lasombra to slide into the halls of power that they might not normally be able to--another reason, perhaps, why they were willing to make the defection.

They made a deal that had an explicit note of having to hope a part of it will work out with regards something like how many of them will die out of actual useful Lasombra. People in a position of strength don't, (or at least shouldn't), make hope based deals where the hope part is the casualties part. You can say it's not a bad deal and make a case for it. The text doesn't really support that it was a strong one.

11. I admit I totally fanboy over the Lasombra. They're not as cool as the Tzimisce but I think of the Ventrue as the inferior of both in scheming.

The Lasombra and Tzimisce wouldn't have lost New York if that were true. The major strategists in charge of that one were Ventrue. None of the scheming focused clans are really all that ahead or behind of each other, they just like to think they are.

[MarkK]

Alright, I stand corrected. I was assuming they were working together and wrong.

Hey, it happens.

Vitel is trying to create a vampiric empire with him in charge of it. To paraphrase something nerdtacular, there is only one lord of the ring, and he does not share power.

[Ragged Robin]

Ragged Robin

I dunno, it seems like they've benefited tremendously.

1. The Amis Noctis has gone from being an internal Clan based phenomenon competing against the Sabbat power structure to actually being the heads of the Clan. They have gained vast amounts of power over their Clan and were already very powerful.

2. The doubling of Lasombra availability of power and titles. The Lasombra can now build power bases within the ranks of the Camarilla that they previously did not have access to. As we see in LA By Night and Seattle by Night by Jason Carl, the Lasombra are already filling the ranks of important political positions. Shadows of New York ends with a Lasombra Primogen in New York.

3. The Lasombra have previously been kept from accumulating anything resembling real mortal wealth and influence by the fact that until they're Elders, they're doing rituals for half of their nights with their packs. Now they have the option of gaining massive amounts of mortal power that was previously denied them by the Black Hand's anti-human bias.

4. The ludicrous idea that Lasombra "Civil Liberites" were respected in the murderous death cult of the Sabbat where regular murder dueling and sanctioned diablerie were things. Now the Lasombra are protected from the Rite of Destruction. The Camarilla is far less quick on the "murder you" argument as we see in Shadows of New York where their response to a Lasombra they dislike is to do mind games versus rip off their head.

5. Speaking ot not being cannon fodder for an insane death cult, the fact is that only a handful of Lasomrba are going to be at the top of the heap and the majority are not going to be able to enjoy the benefits of being death gods among mortals because they were sent on insane missions to kil Camarilla elders or Antediluvians.

6. The sheer amount of new territory the Lasombra can claim as their domain given the Camarilla does not recognize Anarch territories as their own plus so many positions opened by the Beckoning and Second Inquisition. The Sabbat is in retreat but the Camarilla, even with its Anarch problems, is now full of new places to gain Lasombra in. If Kevin Jackson can become Prince of Chicago then who knows what Lasombra Neonates or Ancilla (or Elders) can take.

7. Marcus Vitel is the Lord of Washington D.C. and while an Anarch, helped arrange the defection so the Lasombra now have access to Federal United States power in a way that the Camarilla is now entirely dependent on them for.

8. The Lasombra will presumably no longer be all enslaved by the Vinculum that tied them to the fate of a bunch of potential losers due to the roll of a dice.

9. The Lasombra have ALREADY performed a mass culling of Elders before in the First Anarch Revolt and it made their clan stronger.

10. The Ventrue having lost the Brujah and Gangrel and been unable to protect the Tremere have shown that they don't have the power they need. They need the Lasombra and Assamites. The Lasombra and Assamites do not need the Ventrue.


.

1) The amis noctis just getting a minumum of the 35% of the clan killed and gutting the infrastructure aside wasnt a civil institute in the same way as ephorate or the council of seven. It's an vampiric old boys club excersising soft power. The only real formal civic organization the clan was the court of blood which I can't really imagine will go down well in the ivory tower. Frankly whatever would be left of the Amis noctis is completly discredited with the lower ranks.

2) not really, pretty much all titles and ranks are going to be held by established long term clans with contacts, allies and political clout and more importantly the Carmarilla power block is incredably static so the prince isnt going anywere, if any lasombra are up for consideration it's going to be the 500 year old loyalist not Razor jims plebian ass. Those books sort of lead back to main issue of the thread-v5 lasombra are badly written since things occur because the author wants them to as opposed to being internal consistant.

3) The anti human bias partially come from the Lasombra only really the kings and queens of shadow and Faithful did much with people and whatever they had just got trashed.

4) The Sabbat has three very important civil liberties a Lasombra would appreciate which the Carmarilla simply doesnt
-Freedom of embrace
-Freedom of Diablerie
-Freedom of path
These are very important things to the lasombra. Furthermore the Carmillas nastyer more oppresive traits such as the tech black out means its way more constrictive than the death cult (!). As has been mentioned Lasombra like the fight pit, especially as they were often on top.

5) Now they get to be cannon fodder for the Ventrue instead

6)See 5

7)This is an error and has already been addressed elsewhere

8) That's quite a presumption considering Vaulderie mechanically lasted forever in previous ed. I suppose they'll have to soft/hard ret con further which explicitally endorses critical views of 5th eds fluff.

9) This is actually a pretty good point, however it's worth noting the Lasombra were on the losing end of the 1st revolt and were forced to flee to the states.

10) see 5 and yes they certainly do.

[archderd]

These are very important things to the lasombra. Furthermore the Carmillas nastyer more oppresive traits such as the tech black out

i enjoy being petty so: the lasombra can't use tech in V5 due to their new bane

[Sergeant Brother]

i enjoy being petty so: the lasombra can't use tech in V5 due to their new bane

It’s probably just as well. Following their deal to get into the Camarilla, SchrekNet is probably awash with Cuck and Virgin memes at the Lasombra’s expensive.

[CTPhipps]

1) The amis noctis just getting a minumum of the 35% of the clan killed and gutting the infrastructure aside wasnt a civil institute in the same way as ephorate or the council of seven. It's an vampiric old boys club excersising soft power. The only real formal civic organization the clan was the court of blood which I can't really imagine will go down well in the ivory tower. Frankly whatever would be left of the Amis noctis is completly discredited with the lower ranks.

Yes, it seems like an incredibly effective accomplishment. Mind you, that 35% destroyed is your enemy so it seems like smart politics. They've decided to defect because staying loyal to the Sabbat is a losing proposition and will get them all killed so making sure the Sabbat is crippled on the way out is excellent tactics. I mean, if you are about to secede, you don't want them to have the infrastructure and power to destroy you.

2) not really, pretty much all titles and ranks are going to be held by established long term clans with contacts, allies and political clout and more importantly the Carmarilla power block is incredably static so the prince isnt going anywere, if any lasombra are up for consideration it's going to be the 500 year old loyalist not Razor jims plebian ass. Those books sort of lead back to main issue of the thread-v5 lasombra are badly written since things occur because the author wants them to as opposed to being internal consistant.

The biggest change of 5th Edition is the fact that the Beckoning has a Doyelist explanation for it in that it exists to remove a large chunk of the Camarilla's ancients and elders from their positions of power in Europe and America into the jaws of the Sabbat or Antediluvians. As such, there is a fire sale on positions. Kevin Jackson, a vampire only fifty or years, rules the third largest city in America. If not for the Beckoning, the Second Inquisition has also done irrepairable damage to the old systems of power. The Lasombra know this truth well before HBO gave it to the majority of the world.



If Kevin Jackson can rise to the rulership of Chicago then the Lasombra can carve for themselves their own positions in whatever city is fool enough to let them in.

3) The anti human bias partially come from the Lasombra only really the kings and queens of shadow and Faithful did much with people and whatever they had just got trashed.

Either way there's a whole vast network of mortals to be able to lord and wield influence over that the Camarilla offers that the Sabbat is harder to because, again, it is a wartime sect.

4) The Sabbat has three very important civil liberties a Lasombra would appreciate which the Carmarilla simply doesnt
-Freedom of embrace
-Freedom of Diablerie
-Freedom of path
These are very important things to the lasombra. Furthermore the Carmillas nastyer more oppresive traits such as the tech black out means its way more constrictive than the death cult (!). As has been mentioned Lasombra like the fight pit, especially as they were often on top.

The Lasombra wouldn't have a problem with the tech blackout given their weakness. Ironically, it's just business as usual for them. The Lasombra need to have their ghouls do their cellphones and Facebooking.

As for freedom of Path, the Camarilla no longer suppresses Blood Cults or religions. Convictions and beliefs are a personal matter now.

5) Now they get to be cannon fodder for the Ventrue instead

The Ventrue do not have the power to dictate terms to the Lasombra because they've lost the Tremere's backing that made them such a powerhouse as well as a huge chunk of their Elders. The Ventrue's power base came from the alliance they'd made in the Camarilla but they no longer have the Gangrel or Brujah. The Ventrue want the Lasombra in their court because they are a militant inhuman bunch of monsters that help them against the Second Inquisition, Anarchs, and their former Sabbat allies.

Such is the way of vampires.

Basically, I'm such a huge Lasombra fan I don't think the Ventrue can dictate terms.

8) That's quite a presumption considering Vaulderie mechanically lasted forever in previous ed. I suppose they'll have to soft/hard ret con further which explicitally endorses critical views of 5th eds fluff.

Even presumptive, the Vaulderie is no longer enforceable or required. For those who eliminate the ones they're bonded to, it is freedom from Kupala's flower and chalice.

[archderd]

It’s probably just as well. Following their deal to get into the Camarilla, SchrekNet is probably awash with Cuck and Virgin memes at the Lasombra’s expensive.

first their humanity got fucked by oblivion and now their dignity get's it from the cam. sounds more like they enjoy pegging then cucking.

please don't be mad mods, i'm just joking

[CTPhipps]

Either way, I think it works and YMMV if you don't think it does either way. Metaplot is always going to please some people and don't.

Re: The Brujah

The big thing is that they were KICKED OUT. They didn't leave.

[CTPhipps]

It’s probably just as well. Following their deal to get into the Camarilla, SchrekNet is probably awash with Cuck and Virgin memes at the Lasombra’s expensive.

That seems like it wouldn't be as effective as it should be.

"Who is that?"

"That's an JPEG deepfake of the new Lasombra Primogen being..."

"It looks like static."

"No, I used a real photo and modified it!"

*computer crashes*

"Dammit!"

[MarkK]

The Ventrue do not have the power to dictate terms to the Lasombra because they've lost the Tremere's backing that made them such a powerhouse as well as a huge chunk of their Elders. The Ventrue's power base came from the alliance they'd made in the Camarilla but they no longer have the Gangrel or Brujah.

It's getting into over the top to suggest that the power and influence the Ventrue have, be it generally or within the Camarilla, comes down to the backing of other clans. The way some of these posts read, you'd think the Ventrue were a talentless, moronic nonentity coasting on pure luck and being propped up by others (which, seriously, the game material doesn't support that take). The clan has its own measure of such things just fine, that stack up against those of any other clan just fine.

The other thing is, at least as far as what they have to do to get into any given city, the deal the Lasombra made specifically gives individual Camarilla Princes the power to dictate terms to the Lasombra (if I was going to take one part of the deal and say "from my own view, that was a considerable mistake" it was the choice of the Lasombra to take an approach of leaving it up to the Princes instead of trying to broker a deal with the Inner Council itself. Reaching a defined across the board arrangement from on high like the Assamites managed would have probably been better off than one where you're left hoping a given Prince won't work things as harshly as possible. And it's noted in book, that is a fear the Lasombra have about how this is going to end up) Some of those Princes are by simple default going to be Ventrue.

[CTPhipps]

It's getting into over the top to suggest that the power and influence the Ventrue have, be it generally or within the Camarilla, comes down to the backing of other clans. The way some of these posts read, you'd think the Ventrue were a talentless, moronic nonentity coasting on pure luck and being propped up by others (which, seriously, the game material doesn't support that take). The clan has its own measure of such things just fine, that stack up against those of any other clan just fine.

The other thing is, at least as far as what they have to do to get into any given city, the deal the Lasombra made specifically gives individual Camarilla Princes the power to dictate terms to the Lasombra (if I was going to take one part of the deal and say "from my own view, that was a considerable mistake" it was the choice of the Lasombra to take an approach of leaving it up to the Princes instead of trying to broker a deal with the Inner Council itself. Reaching a defined across the board arrangement from on high like the Assamites managed would have probably been better off than one where you're left hoping a given Prince won't work things as harshly as possible. And it's noted in book, that is a fear the Lasombra have about how this is going to end up) Some of those Princes are by simple default going to be Ventrue.

Yes, which would have gone much worse I assume. This way they got Kevin Jackson to agree to their terms. Remember that Sierra brought a sacrifce BEFORE Jackson's terms.

The Inner Council would undoubtedly driven a much harder bargain than a new Ancilla eager to prove himself.