Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[Manfr]

This thread has inspired me to write a defence of nuCamarilla concepts: take a read and be kind :-D

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-masquerade/1460869-v5-making-sense-of-the-nucamarilla?_=1632338496525

[Ragged Robin]

From the preview, no they aren't, at all going to behave the same Path of Caine has gone from scholars and crusaders to junkies, and the none Sabbat former Path walkers suddenly have to subcontract out their self control, willpower, morality and sense of self out to touchstones, which is a horrific concept

With paths/sabbat They seem to be going the nephandi route were a faction is so relentlessly unpleasant to be effectively be unplayable. I honestly have no idea why they're doing this since it doesn't really enhance the game in any context but it's fair to say v5 lasombra/tzimsce are nothing like da clans with the lack of paths, cultural aspects,clan discipline and organization.

[Taggie]

I know you hate the loss of Paths but you realize they will behave exactly the same way, right?

From the preview, no they aren't, at all going to behave the same Path of Caine has gone from scholars and crusaders to junkies, and the none Sabbat former Path walkers suddenly have to subcontract out their self control, willpower, morality and sense of self out to touchstones, which is a horrific concept

[Chris24601]

Tzimisce started with a focus on fleshcrafting. Vicissitude was described in the 1st Edition Storyteller's Handbook in 1992 (at least the first three flesh-shaping levels were, anyway). Like it or lump it, Tzimisce was the source of mad-science-body-horror for the game, much like Gangrel was the source of shapeshifter vampires, and Toreador was the source of flamboyant Rician vampires, etc.

What is it about Tzimisce you love that isn't right there in Ventrue, especially if you prefer OCT?

I’ll just add to that too that there’s a reason D&D’s Monster Manual isn’t just stocked with humans and Castlevania has hordes of different types of minions and mini-bosses instead of just a trio of brides and maybe a brief struggle as you plunge the stake into Dracula’s heart during daylight hours.

Tzimisce added all manner of twisted body horror monsters; from twisted animals and ghouls to multi-ghouls melted together into engines of death, to Blood Brothers and Revenants; to the mix along with being able to pull a Final Boss One-Winged Angel transformation on themselves.

Each of the add-on clans has its own shtick; assassins, illusions, necromancy, shadow, snake cultists, body-horror monsters; that expands the variety of opponents available beyond the basic PCs while still keeping the focus on vampires and not werewolves or mages or faeries or demons.

The move with a lot of add-on clans seems to towards stripping away a lot of that uniqueness for something that’s practically just a variant or hybrid of one of the original clans... Ravnos are now a mix of the Tories (presence) and Nosferatu (outcasts), Tzmisce are hybrid Ventrue/Gangrel, Lasombra are hybrid Ventrue/Tremere. The Bloodlines are basically just gone entirely minus a loresheet entry.

Frankly, if I were writing V5 and just wanted to do away with the Sabbat, I would have had the Beckoning/Gehenna War basically shatter them and have the survivors (who’ve decided the whole thing was a fool’s crusade) slide right into the Anarchs and be largely responsible for why they’re now more organized and militant (they were the original anarchs after all) and why the Camarilla is so intent on kicking anarchs out of the group. They still hold onto their old customs and a lot of their beliefs (the anarchs don’t require adherence to humanity), they’ve just mostly given up on the idea that they’re part of some holy crusade to kill the Antediluvians for the glory of Caine (though a good chunk would still look at Caine as an exemplar to be emulated)... it’s all about your pack and what’s best for it now.

This would give you varying degrees of Sabbat; from “-in-name-only” to varying flavors of “reform”
to “true believers just using the cover to rebuild” that individual players/tables could choose from for their campaigns. I’d also give the Anarchs the Assamite Sorcerers-in-exile for access to blood magic.

With that in play there’s no reason to throw the Brujah and Gangrel out of the Camarilla (though they certainly would have Anarch members, just as all the clans do) or a need fo shatter the Pyramid so the Anarchs can blood magic via the Tremere (they have the Assamites for it).

The Ravnos, Giovanni/Hecata and Setites remain independent as before.

Yeah, it’s not as “dramatic” as “kill half of your already diminished clan to join”, but frankly, I think the most interesting things in the game should be what the players’ characters are doing, not what various NPCs are doing/have done. I feel that less grandiose (but still significant) changes can keep the setting from being too static without making the PCs into passive observers of “the real important story” that the NPCs are up to.

[monteparnas]

For the Tremere to have more options, in my game I made the Council of Seven kind of split without splitting after Tremere and Saulot left. The idea of Houses inside the clan is fine, but there is absolutely no need to destroy its structure to do that.

This is not how an academic organization works. Fracturing and loosing their central seat of knowledge isn't any good for no one in the clan. Even a Tremere that wanted more freedom would rather prefer to change the system without nuking it.

Even because I totally picture the Council being looser in the bonding part after that. With Tremere cast on the body of Goratrix and Saulot hitting the road, I doubt the Bonds of the Council to Tremere lasted, and they were held down by this shit for almost one thousand years. They're certainly monsters by now, but smart monsters with arcane goals that would benefit of free thinkers bound by benefits and obligations instead of crippling emotional turmoil.

Also I did in my games some of them trying to finally break peace with the Order of Hermes.

[Theodrim]

I feel like the Tzimisce lost a lot with the over-focus on flesh-crafting in subsequent editions. I was always turned off by the Tzimisce Revised opening story that equated real life atrocities and evils with the Tzimisce. It rather permanently soured me on them while the Tzimisce of the Dark Ages seem to have a lot more going for them.

What...Totentanz was too much?

Insert eye roll at that atrocity here.

Dark Ages Tzimisce were, indeed, much better. I've managed to get a full third of the way through my TC game with only one ludicrous Vicissitude monster, thankfully...and that was supposed to be a monstrous fuck-off elder there for the sole purpose of kicking the dogshit out of the coterie, and that was the least of the threats in that huge battle scene. That's in a game that's been, thus far, loaded with Tzimisce (as you'd expect of TC).

Of course, they're about one or two stories away from the Cathedral of Flesh, and the way I'm blocking that story out the body horror is going to be the least of the stomach-churning awfulness to which they'll be exposed. I'm going full Lovecraft and not looking back on that fucker.

[MarkK]

I know you hate the loss of Paths but you realize they will behave exactly the same way, right?

From the little preview blurb it looks like some of them are at the very least going to be different in terms of the descriptions of their beliefs.

[CTPhipps]

The Dark Ages clans have about as much in common with the V5 version as the Sabbat era does, not a whole lot (or nearly nothing) because, again they walked Paths (mostly, their were some on humanity or heaven which would work with touchstones, no other path does, Kings regarded humans as pets at best and one does not take moral inspiration from ones falcons, Devil...well depending on the path of the road we get anything from instrument to supply screams to toy, and one does not take lessons from a pipe organ or a doll.....and those are the most humane options, Abyss and Metamorphosis are even weirder). Then ofc both clans had mystics and sorcerer's, they lost that entirely, with the Tzim loosing.the discipline they based that on, and that allowed them to survey their domains (Koldun flat out doesn't exist anymore, if it ever reappears it will be an in name only theme in the mush that is blood sorcery, but it was always out of clan, it was Auspex that was the night to night mystical discipline for most of them, and now having dominate their DA clan culture makes zero sense, as does what came after)...the Lasombra...well now they can give up Obten to call on a completely different abyss as necromancers...so yay?

I know you hate the loss of Paths but you realize they will behave exactly the same way, right?

[Garygeneric]

I feel like the Tzimisce lost a lot with the over-focus on flesh-crafting in subsequent editions. I was always turned off by the Tzimisce Revised opening story that equated real life atrocities and evils with the Tzimisce. It rather permanently soured me on them while the Tzimisce of the Dark Ages seem to have a lot more going for them.

Tzimisce started with a focus on fleshcrafting. Vicissitude was described in the 1st Edition Storyteller's Handbook in 1992 (at least the first three flesh-shaping levels were, anyway). Like it or lump it, Tzimisce was the source of mad-science-body-horror for the game, much like Gangrel was the source of shapeshifter vampires, and Toreador was the source of flamboyant Rician vampires, etc.

What is it about Tzimisce you love that isn't right there in Ventrue, especially if you prefer OCT?

[Taggie]

Well it depends if you consider the Dark Ages versions of the Lasombra and Tzimisce to be superior, which I do.

The Dark Ages clans have about as much in common with the V5 version as the Sabbat era does, not a whole lot (or nearly nothing) because, again they walked Paths (mostly, their were some on humanity or heaven which would work with touchstones, no other path does, Kings regarded humans as pets at best and one does not take moral inspiration from ones falcons, Devil...well depending on the path of the road we get anything from instrument to supply screams to toy, and one does not take lessons from a pipe organ or a doll.....and those are the most humane options, Abyss and Metamorphosis are even weirder). Then ofc both clans had mystics and sorcerer's, they lost that entirely, with the Tzim loosing.the discipline they based that on, and that allowed them to survey their domains (Koldun flat out doesn't exist anymore, if it ever reappears it will be an in name only theme in the mush that is blood sorcery, but it was always out of clan, it was Auspex that was the night to night mystical discipline for most of them, and now having dominate their DA clan culture makes zero sense, as does what came after)...the Lasombra...well now they can give up Obten to call on a completely different abyss as necromancers...so yay?

[MarkK]

I feel like the Tzimisce lost a lot with the over-focus on flesh-crafting in subsequent editions. I was always turned off by the Tzimisce Revised opening story that equated real life atrocities and evils with the Tzimisce. It rather permanently soured me on them while the Tzimisce of the Dark Ages seem to have a lot more going for them.

They're cool, they're just flawed. Which is not a unique statement in VtM about anything really.

[Black Fox]

Why would there need to be more resistance within the Tremere? When you’re embraced as a Tremere it’s like a combination of joining the Illuminati and going to Hogwart’s. You’re immortal, a member of a world dominating secret society of super powered wizards, with a huge institution that you can work within and learn from, plus you’re hated by people outside of this institution.

I imagine that much of the "normal" frustration of young Tremere against the elders were directed towards members of other clans. Someone at the bottom of the Tremere hierarchy could still advance in the greater vampire society by stepping on Brujah, Gangrel, Caitiff, etc. on the ladder up. The clan's organization provided those on the bottom with the means with an advantage against others, so they didn't really feel they were on the "bottom". (Something similar worked among the Ventrue). And the seven circles of each tier provided the illusion they were still advancing within the clan ("Oooh, I'm now at the third level of mystery as an Apprentice. Regent here I come!")

However, I imagine that as Tremere aged and became ancilla, the limitations of the Pyramid would prove more frustrating. There simply weren't enough positions available for highly trained, competent middle management who wanted to advance past being Regent to Lord or Pontifex. And there were probably a lot of frustrated top ranked Apprentice who kept being passed by for Regent simply because of minor difference in ability or personal favor. But by then, the character would be a vampire with several decades of experience. Less prone to the emotional outbursts of adolescent Anarchs. And they have more to loss by going rogue. So instead of rebelling, they just start very cut throat office politics to undermine internal rivals.

I mean, people can always play rebel Tremere, but there was never a need of rebel movements in the Clan, they were unique in their unity, especially when you had rebels in every other Clan. Even if they wanted to introduce a resistance group, they didn’t need to destroy the Pyramid and Inner Council to do that.

One thing I do like is having options in the game. So while I do not like the V5 metaplot and what has happened to the Tremere, I am sympathetic to CTPhipps' point of more options for Tremere rebels. In the old setting, besides the Tremere antitribu there was no other option. And while I never played a tabletop Anarch game, I have played in some LARP Anarch games, and knew people still wanted to play Tremere. So some sort of guidance and help was needed for STs who simply didn't want to say eventually some Tremere hit squad shows up and kills you.

I don't think I would have gone the V5 route with alternate houses and the like. Probably something more like an underground railroad to "rescue" and "liberate" Tremere who wanted to do their own thing, but somehow couldn't. So they'd either have their destruction faked, identity hidden, or something else that prevented the Tremere hierarchy from successfully hunting them down for a few decades at least. Make some of that network inside the Pyramid itself. And provide just enough plausible deniability that possibly this was all part of some secret plan by the Tremere leadership for those STs who didn't want to countenance such things.

And since I think the real issue for players is not wanting to be a "rebel Tremere" but someone who uses Thaumaturgy outside of the Tremere in a normal Cam/Anarch game, I'd establish a secret society (no clan restrictions in membership) among the Anarchs and Camarilla vampires that did teach its members a limited number of the more common Thaumaturgy paths, especially those that are commonly associated with vampires anyway like Movement of Mind and Weather Control, and make it known that since those Paths pre-dated the Tremere and weren't exclusive to them, that the Tremere simply saw them as rivals, not people who needed to be killed to preserve Tremere secrets. That would have respected the existing setting more yet provide what I think players really wanted. (And it's what I've done in my own chronicles.)

After all, much of the Tremere restrictions on other clans using magic is a legacy of 1e when no other vampire ever had Thaumaturgy. Now that there are so many Paths and subclans and others using it in the Sabbat and Independent Clans, there's no reason to keep it restricted to just the Tremere among the Camarilla clans. You just need to set aside certain Paths as Tremere only (those that they created) and allow a limited number of Paths available to others.

[CTPhipps]

It should be noted that the versions of those clans ruled their clans in such a way that helped the Anarch revolt happen. It wasn't just about childer being thrown to the Inquisition. For the Lasombra and Tzimisce it was as much about being infuriated with the way their leaders held power over them and the manner in which they had been using it for centuries.

I mean, I think the Dark Ages Tzimisce are cool and interesting for their imagery, thematics and sense of drive. But their pride, fractiousness, internal jealousies and vendettas were rolling their clan along a path towards eating itself, as an example.

I feel like the Tzimisce lost a lot with the over-focus on flesh-crafting in subsequent editions. I was always turned off by the Tzimisce Revised opening story that equated real life atrocities and evils with the Tzimisce. It rather permanently soured me on them while the Tzimisce of the Dark Ages seem to have a lot more going for them.

[MarkK]

Well it depends if you consider the Dark Ages versions of the Lasombra and Tzimisce to be superior, which I do.

It should be noted that the versions of those clans ruled their clans in such a way that helped the Anarch revolt happen. It wasn't just about childer being thrown to the Inquisition. For the Lasombra and Tzimisce it was as much about being infuriated with the way their leaders held power over them and the manner in which they had been using it for centuries.

I mean, I think the Dark Ages Tzimisce are cool and interesting for their imagery, thematics and sense of drive. But their pride, fractiousness, internal jealousies and vendettas were rolling their clan along a path towards eating itself, as an example.

[Chris24601]

Well it depends if you consider the Dark Ages versions of the Lasombra and Tzimisce to be superior, which I do.

Since you love picture memes so much...