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(V5) Making sense of the nuCamarilla

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  • (V5) Making sense of the nuCamarilla

    Hello!
    I've read with great interest the nuCamarilla-bashing thread by MyWifeIsScary : it inspired me to look back at Metaplot, and think about how the nuCamarilla can make sense.
    Actually, I think that the nuCamarilla is a sound and interesting concept, if we contextualize it properly. So, please follow me in this short journey in the vicissitudes of the Camarilla.

    Night in the trenches

    Let's look back at how life in a Camarilla city was painted through the different editions.
    In Camarilla society, creating a new Vampire is quite a big deal: you have to ask permission to your Prince, and engage in all sorts of political maneuvering. Progeny is nurtured and trained, often Embraced to carry on some very specific duties.

    When we first met the Sabbat, it was a shadowy terrorist organization, recruiting those fascinated by the forbidden fruit of Diablerie: only a few Kindred had ever heard of it. However, in just a few years, Sabbat crusades invaded most of American cities.

    What did this mean?

    The new Sabbat Civil War of the 50s and 60s had probably weakened the Sect enough to put on hold great offensives against Camarilla cities: at the beginning of the 90s, most Neonates had experienced conflict mostly in the form of mild Anarch subversion and the occasional Lupines and Hunters, who served as a cautionary tale to careless Kindred. The fall of the powerful Chicago Camarilla at the hands of Lupines instigated by the Sabbat had probably been to Kindred in Nord America a seminal event: the problem is, that massacre was just the beginning.

    From the end of the 90s up to 2004, the Sabbat crawled out of its nest, and Crusades swept most of North America for the better part of a decade, followed by Kue-Jin invasion in the West: it was a period of intense backstabbing, open battles in the streets, Vozhd smashing through Elysium and Chantries, dead princes.

    In the end, the Sabbat over-reached, Camarilla took New York and a new Civil War loomed, as the blame game for the defeat of the North American Crusade and the assassination of the Regent started.

    The American Camarilla had changed a lot: the nightlife of most American Kindred had become very dangerous, many young Kindred got destroyed, along with their Sires and patrons, and many others were Embraced for purely military reasons. Princes, who had strongly defended their autonomy, were now in constant relation with Archons and Justicars, their cities used as pawns on a continental chessboard.

    Just like WWI, the Sabbat Crusades sent shockwaves throughout the wider Kindred society: lots of Neonates had been rushed into Embrace and had survived vicious fights, Anarchs were riding the wave of their successful resistance against the Kue-Jin and the human tensions on the global economic crisis, and many Elders and Domains had been lost during the war. What was worse, the conflict had attracted unwanted Human attention, putting the Masquerade in danger.

    Just like Europe after WWI, Camarilla soon found itself on the brink of chaos.

    A mutilated victory

    As the Second Inquisition rose, unprepared Camarilla domains started to fall, especially after the leak in Schrecknet. First, it was some isolated fiefdoms: then, it became London, Berlin, Paris, Wien. For a while, the Camarilla elders tried to fight back: they correctly understood technology had caused their defeat, but instead of accepting they were dinosaurs and needed to put themselves in touch with the modern world, they tried to put the blame on Anarchs and youngsters.

    To make things worse, the Week of Nightmares and the first sign of the Beckoning arrived, and panic spread like wildfire: a whole Clan annihilated, and Elders suddenly disappearing? Gehenna was coming!

    The fall of Wien also brought chaos in Clan Tremere: just recovered from the second Massasa War against the Order of Hermes, the Tremere were already rife with tensions between traditionalist elders, ambitious ancillae frustrated in their thaumaturgical experiments, and oppressed neonates. With the Tremere / Goratrix / Saulot / Tzimisce charade degenerating in a hidden war between manipulated Regents and Pontiffs, the fall of the Council of Seven caused chaos: cutting edge thaumaturgist were recruited by the reborn House Goratrix, while survivors of the war against Hermetics and recent neonates were easy prey of the message of House Carna. The House of Tremere stood, but the Pyramid was severely harmed.

    As tension between Elders and Neonates exploded, and prophets of Apocalypse spread around domains, those in the Camarilla who really had faced the battlefield decided to act: the war against the Sabbat and the increased attention to the Red List had put Archons and their elite, the Josians, in a unique position. What was at stake was once again the survival of Vampires … and if the Inquisition rooted out weaklings, be they careless neonates or senescent elders, the result would have been a stronger race.

    The convention of Prague was the stage for nothing less than a coup: the expulsion of Gangrel and Brujah supporters of the Anarchs, and the killing of Hardestadt, paved the way for the rise of Lucinde, life-long Archon and now “Justicar for Life” of Clan Ventrue.

    Scorched earth

    See, after a few years of war the Archons had realized that the Inquisition didn’t want to burn vampires in the central square: their idea was to exterminate them without the world noticing. So, scorched earth was the new tactic: after all, now, the Camarilla had plenty of Anarchs to let burn.

    While the Inquisition crushed vampiric dissidents, Camarilla retreated to the underground and fortified Elysia. Also, being a global conspiracy for some 500 years gives you a huge advantage in stopping another conspiracy from achieving the same result: Ventrue money and Toreador media helped the rise of nationalist politicians, who polarized and divided their societies, undermined efforts at international cooperation and also, a useful byproduct, increased the numbers of the marginalized, the discriminated against and the undesirable, creating new venues for safe hunting.

    The technology ban appeased conservative elders and miminized exposure: but the response to the Second Inquisition couldn’t be just reactionary. Fascist regimes after WWI rose thanks to the alliance between conservative elites and radicalized veterans, but soon organized themselves as mass regimes: Lucinde and their allies reached out to potential new allies.

    Strange bedfellows

    The Inquisition had hit Camarilla hard, but Sabbat harder: when you are training human-abusing terrorists, you are basically asking for retribution. With the sect torn between the Civil War and the Gehenna Crusade, many Sabbat were just trying to survive.

    Allowing Blood Cults in the Camarilla was a huge remake of Operation Paperclip: whole packs were recruited by Camarilla emissaries. In exchange for “freedom of religion”, organized militia of fanatics and Sect wars’ veterans were brought into the Sect, and sent fighting against the Inquisition and the Anarchs.

    Next, the Assamites: sure, also the Setites had asked to join the Camarilla, but ehy … you put Gnostic subversives against law-abiding elite warriors and sorcerers, there’s really no contest. Also because Assamites brought with them much needed sorcerous skill and an alliance with the Ashirra.

    And finally the Lasombra: their defection wasn’t much different from post-Soviet transition. A group of well connected elites had recognized that the old system wasn’t able to serve their interest anymore: so they threw it under the bus, along with everyone who was too invested with it, and with this they paid the price for admission in a new club. Sure, it was something ruthless, violent and many of the petitioners fell themselves: but again, those who survived brought their contacts in the Church with them, and reaped the fruits from those who had not survived.

    The Camarilla was drastically changed in a few years: in many places, gone were the old snobbish and cultured Elysia. After all, when you are living in an increasingly strict semi-fascist regime, you have to enjoy your newfound sense of security, or else you will feel oppressed. Elysia, accomodating the needs of former Sabbat and Assamite recruits, became small fortresses where vampires could truly be themselves, as bloody and anachronistic as they wished.

    Of course, not everyone was happy with the new course: “progressive” princes like Kevin Jackson or the Brujah Ellenes stood up for the old secular, cosmopolitan, and bureaucratic Camarilla. But, well … you need politics, in a political horror game!


    So, this is my idea of how the nuCamarilla makes sense in the “historical evolution” of the setting: it may be a bit of headcanon, a bit of me connecting the dots I’ve seen in some sourcebooks, but I think it makes sense, and gives sense and direction to the nuCamarilla.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Manfr; 09-22-2021, 03:27 PM.

  • #2
    poor contextualization is kinda the entire problem with most of V5's writing

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    • #3
      Originally posted by archderd View Post
      poor contextualization is kinda the entire problem with most of V5's writing
      That and reduction in players/gm tools and agency.

      Well written piece rationalising sect moves. I don't know if that damns it with faint praise but you did a better job that white wolf did.

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      • #4
        Thanks for sharing! Awesome post! You did a great historical justification.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          You've done quite well into going why someone might want to do something, but you haven't really adressed the why not. For example, I want a new computer, the one I use now works, but it's got a long list of issues being a 7 year old piece of hardware that's taken a few hits. No matter how much I justify my want for a new computer, no matter how much I go into the details of how I could use an upgrade, I can't justify it with the money I make, and the ScaryWife that holds me hostage is going to be less than impressed. send help.

          The Banu Haquim are the last group of vampires you want in the Camarilla. They were the last group of vampires in the second city, and that didn't end well. It doesn't take long for these renowned Junkie-canibals to start screaming "I AM THE LAW" before they depopulate the city.

          You are really underselling the Lasombra.

          Scorched earth doesn't work with vampires? If anything, what the cam are doing is more like Predator satiation, only the predators are encouraged by this and get to pull in more predators and get investment and very real validation of their claims that there are vampires and finding very willing informants... I get that there's real world examples of stupid shit in wars, like the Spanish trying to conquer the Dutch while also giving them very lucrative trade that keeps the Dutch from losing, but this is about a hundred levels above that in high-level stupidity. It's like the Inquisition is a JRPG protagonist and the Demon king Inner circle has decided to up the SI's level by feeding them small opponents and thus prepare the SI for the late game. Not to go into how unreasonable the whole SI thing is being a worldwide phenomenon (or how unreasonable it is for the Cam reaction to be such a widespread bad move)


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          • #6
            Thank you archderd , Ragged Robin and CTPhipps for the praise and the feedback!

            I particuarly hope we see more of Lucinde: I've the feeling she's the real "dictator" of the Camarilla now, and ... well, when you are a 600 years old paranoid Ventrue, who has been fighting conspiracies her whole life, has been blood-bound by a Setite Methuselah for decades, and now probably feels also the effects of the Beckoning ... you can make great story material!

            I agree that unfortunately contextualization is somewhat a weak point of V5 ... and it's a pity, because many of the changes and plot hooks proposed by V5 are extrapolations or logical conclusions of trends starting in V20 or Revised. I mean, Nagaraja as a part of the Hecata has been widely criticized ... but if one reads the True Black Hand book for V20, the fact that Harbingers brought them in makes perfect sense.

            I can understand that you couldn't frontload so much lore on newbies, but perhaps a series of videos with authors, or in-character, could have helped: it's fun to follow the threads between books, bur a little more of context could have done wonders to ease transition between Revised, V20 and V5 metaplot for long-time players.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              You've done quite well into going why someone might want to do something, but you haven't really adressed the why not. For example, I want a new computer, the one I use now works, but it's got a long list of issues being a 7 year old piece of hardware that's taken a few hits. No matter how much I justify my want for a new computer, no matter how much I go into the details of how I could use an upgrade, I can't justify it with the money I make, and the ScaryWife that holds me hostage is going to be less than impressed. send help.
              Thank you, I wasn't really hoping of convincing you, so I'm glad you appreciated the effort !

              I'll now try to address the specific points:

              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              The Banu Haquim are the last group of vampires you want in the Camarilla. They were the last group of vampires in the second city, and that didn't end well. It doesn't take long for these renowned Junkie-canibals to start screaming "I AM THE LAW" before they depopulate the city.
              Fair point indeed: however, with Inquisitor coming around, seasoned junkie-cannibals with access to poisons and fireballs are a good asset, especially if they come with a package of Ashirra allies that have influence and connections in those marginalized mortal communities in which Anarchs might hide and thrive. Also, if the dynamics of the Assamite split are similar to the ones in Revised, Assamites coming to the Cam would probably be mostly Viziers and Sorcerers, so the less diableristic guys.

              Also, the fact that most of the old Camarilla ruling class has migrated to Assamite homeland makes their membership even more important: at the same time, you can reduce the number of your friends that will fall under their fangs ... and if everything goes shit, and Antediluvians start marching with armies of deranged Elders, you already have a strong army of junkie-cannibals in place to bear the brunt.


              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              You are really underselling the Lasombra.
              I really love the Lasombra, I fell in love with them since after having seen the "Vampire: the Dark Ages" Clan portrait <3, my first character was a Lasombra Antitribu: I feel nonetheless they are ... well, horrible people, who might behave as the worst Russian oligarch-gangster.

              Post-communist transition has workerd wonderfully for the elites who took advantage of privatizations. Russian oligarchs basically own a sizeable chunk of London, and before Putin coherced many of them into supporting his regime and jailed the others, they managed to make "il bello e il cattivo tempo", as we say in Italy, with politics and economics in their country: Russia in the 90s was probably the place in the world who was most similar to a Cyberpunk 2020 setting, with megacorps shooting at each other in the streets using hired thugs.

              Les Amies Noirs are just trying to become Russian Oligarchs in the Camarilla. For every Lasombra, or Sabbat pack, who falls, those surviving can claim the spoils and concentrate more power and wealth.

              Who know, perhaps their gamble will fail, and Marcus Vitel will be their Putin.

              However, in a time when the Church is the leading force of a war against you, I wouldn't underestimate the contribution that the Lasombra and their century-old ecclesiastical contacts can bring you.

              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              Scorched earth doesn't work with vampires? If anything, what the cam are doing is more like Predator satiation, only the predators are encouraged by this and get to pull in more predators and get investment and very real validation of their claims that there are vampires and finding very willing informants... I get that there's real world examples of stupid shit in wars, like the Spanish trying to conquer the Dutch while also giving them very lucrative trade that keeps the Dutch from losing, but this is about a hundred levels above that in high-level stupidity. It's like the Inquisition is a JRPG protagonist and the Demon king Inner circle has decided to up the SI's level by feeding them small opponents and thus prepare the SI for the late game. Not to go into how unreasonable the whole SI thing is being a worldwide phenomenon (or how unreasonable it is for the Cam reaction to be such a widespread bad move)
              Of course, Anarchs are the earth being scorched, here: the Camarilla has noticed that the Second Inquisition doesn't want an open war, so it's using Anarchs as unvoluntary cannon fodder in a war of attrition with the Inquisition.
              Human Governments, as you underline, have a hard time cooperating with each other, while the Camarilla has literally all the time in the world: their bet is that, at some point, bad will and subversion will hamper the efforts of the Second Inquisition, after a good number of vampiric troublemakers has been killed.

              Less overpopulation, less competition, and surviving Camarilla guys, again, get all the spoils.

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              • #8
                MyWifeIsScary

                Re: Banu Haqim in the Camarilla

                I dunno, I think the Banu Haqim have a reputation that is basically equivalent to the Ravnos (via retcon). Which is to say their reputation outside their homeland is grossly distorted.

                The Banu Haqim are actually a civilized clan of sorcerers and magistrates that just so happen to have a diablerie happy bunch of lunatics in their ranks. These latter nutbars were the majority of Assamites encountered in Europe prior to the Convention of Prague. Now the vast majority of Assamites you're going to meet in the West are going to be Camarilla defectors or members of the Ashirra. Basically, you're more likely to meet the "normal" members of the Clan versus the Web of Knives blood cultists these days.

                And even then, the Camarilla has a use for the diablerist psychopath warriors too. Especially since they no longer extend their protection to Anarchs, Independents, or Thin Bloods.
                Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-23-2021, 04:49 PM.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  I dunno, I think the Banu Haqim have a reputation that is basically equivalent to the Ravnos (via retcon). The Banu Haqim are actually a civilized clan of sorcerers and magistrates that just so happen to have a diablerie happy bunch of lunatics in their ranks that were the majority of Assamites encountered in Europe prior to the Convention of Prague. Now the vast majority of Assamites you're going to meet in the West are going to be Camarilla defectees or members of the Ashirra.

                  Basically, you're more likely to meet the "normal" members of the Clan versus the Blood Cultists.

                  And even then, the Camarilla has a use for the diablerist psychopath warriors too.

                  Yes, I do agree: Diablerie is an important part of Assamite clan culture, but it's been a long way since it was their defining factor. They are basically the Ventrue of Middle East.

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                  • #10


                    Re: Anarchs

                    Originally posted by Manfr
                    Of course, Anarchs are the earth being scorched, here: the Camarilla has noticed that the Second Inquisition doesn't want an open war, so it's using Anarchs as unvoluntary cannon fodder in a war of attrition with the Inquisition. Human Governments, as you underline, have a hard time cooperating with each other, while the Camarilla has literally all the time in the world: their bet is that, at some point, bad will and subversion will hamper the efforts of the Second Inquisition, after a good number of vampiric troublemakers has been killed.
                    I think that overstates the genius of the Camarilla here and is making it more of a grandiose master plan than a much more simpler case of the Camarilla consolidating and moving into a defensive posture. The Camarilla has suffered from the Beckoning, Gehenna Wars, Second Inquisition, and a rising power of the Anarchs due to the offending of the Ministry (you can't convince me the Followers of Set aren't the Piped Piper herding the Anarchs in one direction). In simple terms, they've lost a lot of their Elders and upper tier management.

                    The casting out of the Anarchs from their ranks is less a clever political ploy and simply a way to make sure they spend the majority of their resources protecting the remaining Elders and power players versus trying to protect everyone. It's not making them stronger but it does mean that they're fighting on a lesser number of fronts than they would be otherwise. It may not be the best strategy for saving the Camarilla overall but it might save Rafael de Corazon and Francois Villon who could give two shits about the Camarilla overall versus themselves.

                    As you say, they can rebuild later.

                    As for the Anarchs themselves, I'd say the Red Question and advent of the internet is the big change. A lot of Anarchs embraced in the 21st century are people used to being able to coordinate. Add in the Followers of Set as people who are INCREDIBLY TALENTED at manipulation and large scale planning and you have the beginnings of a new sect capable of functioning unlike previous Anarch Movement realms. The issue is now whether the New Anarchs will be more like the Camarilla but more fair or more like the Sabbat 2.0.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Manfr View Post
                      Russia in the 90s was probably the place in the world who was most similar to a Cyberpunk 2020 setting, with megacorps shooting at each other in the streets using hired thugs.

                      Aren't you supposed to be making a case for the Lasombra? Why would the well established members of the nuCam want such an unstable element?

                      The terms for joining the Camarilla are what you'd accept in a defeat. It's almost like the cam want to give the most rediculous demands just because they know the Lasombra wouldn't take them. The Lasombra's clan organization literally boils down to one thing: protecting the brand. Why would such image focused characters absolutely shit the bed on their reputation and sign up to a humiliating surrender? It's completely out of character for them

                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                      MyWifeIsScary

                      Re: Banu Haqim in the Camarilla

                      I dunno, I think the Banu Haqim have a reputation that is basically equivalent to the Ravnos (via retcon). Which is to say their reputation outside their homeland is grossly distorted.

                      The Banu Haqim are actually a civilized clan of sorcerers and magistrates that just so happen to have a diablerie happy bunch of lunatics in their ranks. These latter nutbars were the majority of Assamites encountered in Europe prior to the Convention of Prague. Now the vast majority of Assamites you're going to meet in the West are going to be Camarilla defectors or members of the Ashirra. Basically, you're more likely to meet the "normal" members of the Clan versus the Web of Knives blood cultists these days.

                      And even then, the Camarilla has a use for the diablerist psychopath warriors too. Especially since they no longer extend their protection to Anarchs, Independents, or Thin Bloods.
                      The sorcerers have always been a tiny caste and maybe half the time it's barbarous, vile, and reminiscent of dark thaumaturgy. The Viziers may be over represented by the schism, but they too have always been a much smaller caste than the warriors, because finding great warriors suited for an undead lifestyle has always been easier than finding embrace-worthy scholars ready to drink blood.
                      Second, among the defectors, many are still going to be very extreme by normal standards. Perhaps they're pro diablerie they just don't like Ur-Shulgi, If they left for religious persecution then, well done, you've got someone who's adamant about following a faith he can't possibly adhere to as a vampire, IE a dangerous nutjob. In any case by accepting the schismatics you're inviting the loyalists to sneak in and cause trouble.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        The sorcerers have always been a tiny caste and maybe half the time it's barbarous, vile, and reminiscent of dark thaumaturgy. The Viziers may be over represented by the schism, but they too have always been a much smaller caste than the warriors, because finding great warriors suited for an undead lifestyle has always been easier than finding embrace-worthy scholars ready to drink blood.

                        Second, among the defectors, many are still going to be very extreme by normal standards. Perhaps they're pro diablerie they just don't like Ur-Shulgi, If they left for religious persecution then, well done, you've got someone who's adamant about following a faith he can't possibly adhere to as a vampire, IE a dangerous nutjob. In any case by accepting the schismatics you're inviting the loyalists to sneak in and cause trouble.
                        1. Your Tremere bias is showing. The Assamite Thaumaturgy has been a staple of their clan for 5,000 years. If any Clan has also purged itself of Dark Thaumaturgy, it's them. Probably better than the Clan of Warlocks. Remember the Baali's blood also tastes like Tremere's.

                        2. And it's better to have the Devil at your side than in your path. The Assamites as part of the Camarilla gives you access to those dangerous nutjobs and diablerists rather than makes you their target.


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                        • #13
                          1 How do Assamites conduct magic? Inconsistently! Half of them might appear to work noble high magics, working with the stars for power and such, but more of them make covenants with spirits and get high on drugs to do so. Their lack of organization is the reason why the Tremere have more paths and rituals available to them despite being 4000 years younger.

                          2: Would you invite a known or suspected mass murderer into your house? Oh he might not be a pure psychopath, he might just have an inflated ego and some extreme political views... that don't align with yours. You can trust this guy around your kids, right?


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            2: Would you invite a known or suspected mass murderer into your house? Oh he might not be a pure psychopath, he might just have an inflated ego and some extreme political views... that don't align with yours. You can trust this guy around your kids, right?
                            Sleeping Beauty is a very good example of why you shouldn't shun the Assamites. Because while they're your guest, they will abide by hospitality and be your ally. While they are outside your gates, they may well lay siege to you.

                            The Assamites are powerful allies and much better that than enemies.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #15
                              A potential enemy a thousand miles away is a lot better than a potential enemy at your doorstep. The Streltsys, Praetorian guard, Janissaries... they were all effective, for a time, but they all went to shit; Assamites are even stronger than them, and the Camarilla as an organization is weaker than these old empires; It won't take long for things to go absolutely terribly.


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