(V5) Making sense of the nuCamarilla

[CTPhipps]

A potential enemy a thousand miles away is a lot better than a potential enemy at your doorstep. The Streltsys, Praetorian guard, Janissaries... they were all effective, for a time, but they all went to shit; Assamites are even stronger than them, and the Camarilla as an organization is weaker than these old empires; It won't take long for things to go absolutely terribly.

The difference of a 1000 miles in the Middle Ages versus that of 2021 means that that it was either co-opting your enemies like Ghengis Khan or falling under their hooves.

[Manfr]

MyWifeIsScary , you seem very attached to a 2nd Edition vision of the Assamites: if we stay by Revised supplements and Clanbook, Assamites had always been the Judges of Cainite society, and in a dominant political position in the Middle East. Viziers and Sorcerers combined make about little less than half of the Clan, so they are not such a tiny minority.

As for Islam, Ashirra are a well developed take on Muslim religion and how a Vampire can try to (un)live with the burden of a religion forbidding its existence: it's not like Christendom is much more forgiving of being an undead cannibal with devilish powers, BTW.

The alliance between Camarilla and "mainstream" Assamites is consistent and sound with metaplot and in-world logic, I'd say.

I can agree that the Lasombra brand will not be in good shape after their defection: again, like Russia in the 90s. This, however, did not stop Russian oligarchs from amassing incredible wealth and maintaining important connections with the West.

If russian oligarchs can be guest of honor at Conservative Party fundraising dinners, Lasombra defectors can make a career in the Camarilla!

[MyWifeIsScary]

I think You do me wrong
I've never read the early editions of the Assamites
The sorcerers are a very small fraction of the clan in V20, and presumably revised since V20 was often a lazy cut and paste. I might recall that they're a 10th. My understanding of Assamite sorcery is from actually looking at the thaumaturgy books and real life inspiration, plus actually considering the logistics of how Assamites must actually train their sorcerers. And NO, Assamites haven't always been the judges of Cainite Society. They've viewed themselves as the judges of Cainite society, it's a self appointed role, which is pretty fucking terrifying when you think about it. That's a line of thinking that leads to dead prostitutes, battered immigrants, and machineguns at nightclubs. The Assamites were kept out of the second city until it was a mess, and when they were let in, they fought the Baali, got cursed, and there are no later stories concerning the second city. Letting the Assamites in is the vampire equivalent of conservatives getting scared of liberals and then flirting with fascists to drive them out.... wait, that does seem like pretty good justification for the nucam...

The Ashirra are doomed to fail because they make islam a core issue. Vampires might have a lot of issues with christianity, but they don't build a sect around it, so while a few individuals may warp their faith as a vampire, most will pick healthier paths. In the Ashirra, not only do you have issues from other religions and mortal sectarianism, you also have issues on how to appropriate the kindred condition to the faith; what rules to ignore and how to make up for them, what rules to invert, how to interpret the vampire's possition in the faith... so on and so forth. It becomes an utter mess, especially when you start asking questions like "Why Islam?" (because the writers were orientalist at the time?) or "were vampires involved in the absolute clusterfuck horror-story of succession that occured after Mohammed died and how did it effect them?" and so on and so forth. Building a vampire sect around a mortal religion is batshit insane and racist without some external threat to justify it. (like Assamites)


Your comparison with russian oligarchs doesn't really work because the oligarchs kept their power in the same place, oh sure they like to shop in italy, but their power stays in russia. Letting Lasombra into a Camarilla city is like bringing harden criminals into your house for menial labour and hoping they won't do anything bad. A Lasombra needs to build up backgrounds, they're one of the most ambitious and overbearing clans in the game, and these are the ones that have killed their own people just to prove how "good" they are. You can't trust them as far as you can throw them. Look there's just absolutely nothing good about the deal, for princes, for Lasombra, for anybody. It's a non-deal. You start with it during a negotiation to suggest your stance, you don't actually conclude the negotiation with it.

[Jonny]

IS Islam a core issue of the Ashirra? The Temple of Set is a member of the sect and they are definitly not Muslims

[archderd]

IS Islam a core issue of the Ashirra? The Temple of Set is a member of the sect and they are definitly not Muslims

you might want to read up on your lore their bud. ashira are very much an islamic sect, the setites have a truce with the banu haqim (and the ashira as a result) but they don't like eachother at all and settites are pretty much treated as an independent clan amongst the ashira

[Jonny]

Ashirra: We occupy a necessary place in this sect, acting as advisors and counselors without ever truly entering their political and religious hierarchy. Sometimes an outside opinion is required. The Banu Haqim would have the entire Ashirra turn on us, but thankfully, there are more clans to that sect than a cabal of rabid assassins. Of note, the Ministry have no presence among the Ashirra. It is a sect where we represent ourselves.

This is the lore I was going off of, bud.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Yeah they're saying they're outsiders there, it's just a little dense.

[archderd]

This is the lore I was going off of, bud.

it literally says it right there in your quote that the ministry aren't part of the ashira.

Of note, the Ministry have no presence among the Ashirra.

[Spencer from The Hills]

it literally says it right there in your quote that the ministry aren't part of the ashira.

Of note, the Ministry have no presence among the Ashirra.

He didn't say that the Ministry is part of the Ashirra, he said the Temple of Set. The quote comes from the Church of Set. In that context, of the Church of Set's description in Cults of the Blood Gods, the "Ministry" refers to parts of the Setite clan that don't follow the Church of Set's orthodoxy.

[CTPhipps]

IS Islam a core issue of the Ashirra? The Temple of Set is a member of the sect and they are definitly not Muslims

Two points:

1. The Ashirra had a bunch of people giving lip service even in the dark ages including pagans (who didn't care about giving worship to foreign gods as long as they did their own) or were atheists.

2. The new Sabbat book speculates the Ashirra is a cover for many ancient Blood Cults.

[Manfr]

Two points:

1. The Ashirra had a bunch of people giving lip service even in the dark ages including pagans (who didn't care about giving worship to foreign gods as long as they did their own) or were atheists.

2. The new Sabbat book speculates the Ashirra is a cover for many ancient Blood Cults.

Well, I would not exactly trust the opinion of the Sabbat on the subject 😁

[Jonny]

He didn't say that the Ministry is part of the Ashirra, he said the Temple of Set. The quote comes from the Church of Set. In that context, of the Church of Set's description in Cults of the Blood Gods, the "Ministry" refers to parts of the Setite clan that don't follow the Church of Set's orthodoxy.

Yeah the Ministry aren't, but that quote is from the Temple of Set. They spend most of that section trying to differentiate the two, that's why they say "we represent ourselves in the sect".

[Manfr]

Ok, so ... this might become a module for the Storytellers' Vault!

Which themes and characters would you like to see detailed ?