How to adjust the "classic" Sabbat to the V5 Sabbat

[monteparnas]

As much as I understand why, and there are many reasons to avoid it, I think it must be done.

V5 assumes the Gehenna started. Despite its share of retcons, it is the same setting. And this setting had the Week of Nightmares as important canon piece that influenced metaplot for four years of publications.

Paradox have to deal with the elephant in the room. Whatever they decide to do with it, they'll have to face it directly sooner or later, and the later, the worse.

Without that, we can only assume it is canon-as-written with all the problems it also brings.

My bet is that OPP didn't touch it because Paradox forbid.

[MarkK]

Beckett's Jyhad Diary and V20 had Jalan discover the True Hand controlled about 75% of the Black Hand.

Mind you, the Week of Nightmares was conspicuously absent from that book.

V20 had been pretty intent on not going in its direction really.

[CTPhipps]

But did the Sabbat got wind of the True Black Hand? AFAIK, the True Hand kind of blew up alone, so it just ceased to be without no one learning about them.

At this point the Black Hand is the only Black Hand, as the new cult that may or may not be comprised of surviving members is still forming, anyway.

Beckett's Jyhad Diary and V20 had Jalan discover the True Hand controlled about 75% of the Black Hand.

Mind you, the Week of Nightmares was conspicuously absent from that book.

[monteparnas]

But did the Sabbat got wind of the True Black Hand? AFAIK, the True Hand kind of blew up alone, so it just ceased to be without no one learning about them.

At this point the Black Hand is the only Black Hand, as the new cult that may or may not be comprised of surviving members is still forming, anyway.

[Black Fox]

It just occurred to me that most likely the Black Hand (meaning the "False Hand", the paramilitary unit of the Sabbat) shouldn't exist anymore. Once it becomes known that the entire leadership of the Black Hand and many of its members belonged to a pro-antedeluvian cult (the True Black Hand), that they were effectively controlling the sect, and had destroyed any Sabbat vampires who came close to discovering the truth, that there is no way the organization could continue to survive. The Sabbat would need to clean house and start brand new. Otherwise it would risk allowing enemy agents to survive and reestablish enemy control over the institution. Who could you trust? No one.

The most likely outcome would it be being disbanded entirely, and if the Sabbat wanted a new paramilitary group, they would create an entirely new organization whose membership would exclude previous members of the Black Hand. And there would be a inquiry and purge of anyone suspected of being part of the True Hand. Given the political enemies the Black Hand had, there would be a good level of payback even for members who were innocent. And there's a very good chance that the Sabbat would decide to not replace the Black Hand at all. Even loyal members of the Sabbat Black Hand might be forced to flee into exile to escape destruction.

[CTPhipps]

This is where I actually think V5 did a decent job with Ur-Shulgi because the Sabbat fighting a Gehenna War against the Methuselah-worshiping Assamites and it lasting twenty-years with immense casualties is probably the only thing about the Gehenna War that would make perfect sense. It also would mean Ur-Shulgi wasn't sitting on his ass this entire time.

Depending on whether Goratrix/Tremere or Shaitan was aiding the Black Hand, it also explains why Ur-Shulgi might not have been able to personally intervene.

Though the Three-Eyed Witch implies a Salubri Methuselah may have also been involved.

[AnubisXy]

I never thought the Black Hand had enough operatives to work as teams. They were always working solo because their numbers were so small.

Individually they're normally just part of regular packs, but when warfare calls they form all-Black Hand warbands called Kamut. Such warbands can have anywhere from 3-12 members. And even for some ancient hoary elder would probably be shitting blood at the thought of having to fight a dozen Black Hand members.

I guess instead of saying "likely" the phrase, "depending on the situation" might be more accurate. Primarily though when the Black Hand takes action though it's in the form of Kamut rather than sending individual vampires out to do something. So if you are facing the Black Hand, you're very likely facing a Kamut.

[CTPhipps]

Yeah, that's the thing. Individually members of the Black Hand are pretty badass. But the thing is you're likely not just facing one guy but a whole pack. And 5 or six badass Black Hand members working together is something that would give even a Methuselah pause.

I never thought the Black Hand had enough operatives to work as teams. They were always working solo because their numbers were so small.

[AnubisXy]

Yeah, that's the thing. Individually members of the Black Hand are pretty badass. But the thing is you're likely not just facing one guy but a whole pack. And 5 or six badass Black Hand members working together is something that would give even a Methuselah pause.

[Matt the Bruins fan]

2.2) Utterly lethal warriors trained to a standard that can easily match any SI kill team, or Archon hit-squad. (In one on one combat, a Black Hand operative is probably one of the deadliest Cainite warriors in existence.)

I think that's overstating the matter a fair bit. Training and fanaticism will see Black Hand members who specialize in combat (rather than espionage, etc.) punching above their weight class, but I don't know that they're individually any better than a given Templar or other martially-inclined vampire of similar age and generation. The subsect's big advantage was that it was an organization, with packs/teams trained to work together as disciplined units under a cohesive strategic command.

[SuperSabbatST]

If I wanted to go with a "wait what the heck happened to the Sabbat in V5?" as an answer. To me clearly what happened is what was proposed as an ending to the 4th Sabbat Civil War in Mexico City by Night. There is no Regent, Jalan-Ajav took direct control of the Sabbat with his black hand after solidifying power in the subsect. He slowly started to mold the Sect into the Black Hand (hence the name of the v5 book.,..) and started the Gehenna Crusade. What no one expected was Jalan died or vanished...so it was a half finished project. The end result? The Sabbat that exists now IS the Black Hand with no real leader. As the one guy who consolidated all power to himself...is gone.

That's what makes the most sense to me.

[CTPhipps]

Cool beans. Thanks for that.

[SetiteFriend]

That is a very large leap from the bit about them written up so far.

Also, where does Word of God confirm it?

Matthew Dawkins on the WoD discord said so. Link

[CTPhipps]

House Goratrix is Camarilla aligned in V5, implied at in their clan's writeup and confirmed by Word of God. So it doesn't make much sense that they'd still be Sabbat, all signs point to them defecting to the Camarilla as well, which would be inline with Tremere controlling them.

That is a very large leap from the bit about them written up so far.

Also, where does Word of God confirm it?

[monteparnas]

I wonder if many of the Sabbat bloodlines would stick after the civil war, actually. I don't think many of them would have that big an interest in the new direction or be easily influenced en masse into buying into it. As I see it, only the Bloodbrothers would largely stay in the Sabbat.