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How to adjust the "classic" Sabbat to the V5 Sabbat

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  • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    I think this is already material for another thread, how we could have done the Gehenna War and, overall, the new metaplot, in a way better anchored in the style and lore of V20.

    Questions to answer, and I have my take on them:

    1 - What happened to the Withering?

    2 - How to rework properly the Week of Nightmares?

    3 - What are the Antes and Methuselah doing now?

    4 - How screwed is Old-style Masquerade?

    5 - What happened to the Sabbat factions?

    6 - How the Family Reunion and Lasombra Defection played out?

    7 - What are the many groups doing about the above?

    8 - How or when does the Beckoning works, and when it doesn't?
    1. I think the Withering is no longer canon in the universe and was only canon in Gehenna but it seems strange that they incorporated so much from those scenarios but they skiped over this. Especially when you could do what the Times of Troubles did in AD&D Second edition. Basically, the Withering could be used to explain away a lot of changes to Disciplines and rules in-universe.

    2. I think the Week of Nightmares just has to be accepted as something that was meant to be gonzo and reflective of the world of darkness being different from the real one. Even so, I do change the location of the events to a rural area rather than the middle of one of the largest cities on Earth. Possibly reducing millions of casaulties ot hundreds of thousands.

    3. In my games, the Antediluvians are summoning their childer to them and judging them worthy or unworthy then eating the unworthy. As we see with Augustus Giovanni being destroyed and Saulot/Kupala or whatever defeated in Vienna, there have been some serious changes to the Jyhad but it will carry on to the next millennia.

    4. I think there's a very interesting arguement that the Masquerade will be preserved not by the Kindred but the fact that people don't want to believe in vampires. Millions of people could be informed about their existence but push the idea of their existence to the back of their heads because they don't want to believe it. That's a bit Requiem, though.

    5. Well, I gave my thoughts on that.

    6a. I feel like the Hecata is a big success for the Cappadocians. They're a Blood Cult, sect, and Clan all in one with Augustus Giovanni now destroyed. However, the end of theri Antediluvian may prove to be a loss in the long run since it just means that they are now vulnerable to the manipulations of the others of their kind.

    6b. I think the Lasombra are going to find themselves adjusting to life in the Camarilla very well. I don't think the Ventrue will try to punish the Lasombra because they're too interested in promoting their own power and the Banu Haqim have no issues with the Clan. I do think they're in for a few rough decades rebuilding, though, but the best of the Lasombra will survive.

    7. I think the Camarilla will survive as an Invictus-level group but the Anarchs are going to get worse the more they organize and more Sabbat-like.

    8. The Beckoning is just when the Antediluvians call you and its inconsistency is just when their attention comes to you. They'll get to everyone...eventually.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      6a. I feel like the Hecata is a big success for the Cappadocians. They're a Blood Cult, sect, and Clan all in one with Augustus Giovanni now destroyed. However, the end of theri Antediluvian may prove to be a loss in the long run since it just means that they are now vulnerable to the manipulations of the others of their kind.
      Do we know for sure that A) Augustus is dead or that B) he wasn't diablarized by Lazarus or someone else in the Hecata?

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      • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
        Do we know for sure that A) Augustus is dead or that B) he wasn't diablarized by Lazarus or someone else in the Hecata?
        1. It said the "Death of Augustus" in the Reunion loresheet as you attending the ritual.

        2. It wouldn't work really since Augustus never devoured Cappadocias' soul so he's never been a "real" Antediluvian.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        the Contact Us link.

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        • I'll give my own personal take, but does anyone feels like another question s needed? I actually added a couple more.

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          1 - What happened to the Withering?
          I'd say it lasted about a year, maybe less. This is enough to leave a number of scars in Kindred society without collapsing it. Overall disciplines above level 5 seem to have been completely lost, although diablerie may temporarily give an elder access to them as per the Withering rules. Same for other higher traits. Disciplines up to five were recovered afterwards without much of a fuss, though.

          But the other effects didn't faded without lasting consequences. Some Kindred stayed with the Thin Blood Flaw permanently, regardless of generation, mainly those who tried to stave off the Withering through diablerie repeatedly. Half of all Blood Bonds and Vaulderie breaking each month ravaged Kindred society, each side taking the toll on its own way, and the Bond never recovered the same strength (it's weaker already in V5).

          Kindred society was ravaged by the sudden break of Bonds and eventual Diablerie scandals (I don't think they were that many, for several reasons, but they were a huge thing still), but even more by fear of the Withering. It may return, and indeed I think it may still exist as a plague that spread across cities sometimes and fades after unpredictable intervals.

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          2 - How to rework properly the Week of Nightmares?
          Mostly I think it should be taken at face value with only two caveats. First that there was probably a large amount of locals involved, instead of white knights all over the place plus a bunch of Asian-but-still-foreign participants.

          Second that it should be definitely high profile, not something swept under the rug. The effort of the Technocracy and others into covering it up worked for a time, but not without costs and not forever. It went to the news still as the most catastrophic typhoon in human history and got a lot of constant attention from rescuers, scientists, politicians and religious zealots.

          By now its magical nature is known, although most details may still be missing for the general public.

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          3 - What are the Antes and Methuselah doing now?
          Personally I don't like to boil this down to a standard answer for all, or even many, of them. I'd like instead to finally formalize a list of Antes and their current shenanigans.

          My idea is that each Ante is now the focus of a bunch of plots and at least one faction, outside eventual cults or wannabe hunters, but factions directly related to their exploits.

          For each of them I intend on writing a Revelation, how they became known, a Status & Agenda, how are they and what they're personally doing now, and a Forces, a write-up on people working under their command.

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          4 - How screwed is Old-style Masquerade?
          For me, totally.

          The world knows.

          Now back to business.

          I don't think the Masquerade would hold just on society unwillingness to accept the truth. Also, exploring this Brave New World of a humanity on the know is half the fun of going forward with the metaplot at this point.

          But I don't think this changes too many things, either. Vampires still have many secrets to guard from humanity, and many will want to remain in the shadows whatever comes their way, so there is still a sense of secrecy, a New Masquerade.

          Something about getting as much as possible under the radar, presenting a fake face that can survive the call for destruction, and overall keeping the mortals out of your business.

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          5 - What happened to the Sabbat factions?
          Other will work the details better than me, some have already done it, but in general I think the Sabbat fragments. This isn't always to say it shrinks, lose cohesion or even weakens, but it changes with factions old and new becoming more independent.

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          6 - How the Family Reunion and Lasombra Defection played out?
          I don't know yet, although I think the Family Reunion mostly works out as intended. I also think they would send envoys to other sects and relevant groups to establish diplomatic relations. I don't see the necromancers being complete isolationists, never saw it making sense.

          The Lasombra would have better written terms of defection.

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          7 - What are the many groups doing about the above?
          First, freaking out. The Withering and the Fall of the Masquerade are a lot to digest. Then adapting and deciding what to do about the new factions the Ancient brought with them.

          I think the Camarilla would come out to formalize its position at a higher level, while at a city level Princes would try to keep as much of their power and their way of life intact. First behind the scenes, then publicly, the Cam would send envoys to governments and international alliances to talk about vampiric law and partnership.

          Most of it would boil down to pretend openness while working most the same as always, only with a few tweaks in the concept of Masquerade and maybe making Justicars and Archons into more-or-less public offices known to mortals.

          Some Sabbat would double down on their depredations and stay at war with mortals, but many would find some sort of compromise to keep their lives. The default would probably be staying out of sight, although some of the Paths could actually try to find a niche to exist more or less openly. At the end of the day the sect itself would be seen as a loose coalition of cults, extremists and undead terrorists.

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          8 - How or when does the Beckoning works, and when it doesn't?
          Actually I like the idea of the Beckoning being more a strange phenomenon than a conscious interference by the Ancients. Affected elders suffer from a compulsion they can't understand. It directs them to travel to a certain place and start a seemingly meaningless pattern of behaviors.

          Some are strange projects with a sense of finality, like building something. Other are just weird routines they take every night. Others are rituals that have no apparent purpose. And all that may very well not have a purpose. Nothing should guarantee this is anything more than a new derangement.

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          9 - What happened to the Red Star?
          First talking about canon, since early in its plot the Red Star is intended to be a real object, 28978 Ixion. This thing seems literally to be a giant ice rock covered in red organic slime, which in the real world do not means life by itself and certainly doesn't in its particular case.

          So you can take the plots on mortal observations at face value: it was first seen by mortal astronomers as a comet, then it was confirmed to be just a particularly big chunk of ice in the Kuiper Belt. There is no explanation for Ixion being visible at naked eye for a period, and the end of the Masquerade may bring this up to mind.

          IRL there are talks about a space mission to Ixion launching sometime between 2035 and 2040, with arrival there taking between 10 and 25 years. I think this would be of much interest for vampires, that can still see the damn thing with Auspex, but may want a closer look. Someone is trying to develop an Auspex power that works through an unmanned spacecraft.

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          10 - How did the Red Sign (Conspiracy and spell) affected the world?

          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          11 - What happened to Afifa's child?


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