[V5] Fate of Sabbat luminaries

[Taggie]

Honestly, a missed opportunity of V5 is not giving rules for Paths as ways of doing the new Humanity system. I think the Blood Cults would have been perfect as opportunities for introducing Roads into the Modern Nights.

A Road of Mithras seems like a no-brainer.

They could not do that and keep Touchstones and Humanity as core concepts, they needed the psychological abuse and gaslighting simulator.

[CTPhipps]

They could not do that and keep Touchstones and Humanity as core concepts, they needed the psychological abuse and gaslighting simulator.

Humanity as it was is dead. The new Humanity system has no resemblance to Humanity as it was in previous games. The only thing they have in common is you auto lose for diablerie.

Touchstones have needed to be reworked for awhile.

[SetiteFriend]

The Convictions provided in Cults work really well IMO, which even though not exemplified in the Core certainly were options (Vampiric Paths are mentioned in their write-up after all). I really don't see any need for "True" Paths or Roads, I've had characters do horrible shit and maintain relatively high humanity because their convictions helped.

They could not do that and keep Touchstones and Humanity as core concepts, they needed the psychological abuse and gaslighting simulator.

Almost like vampires aren't the good guys and by their very nature they are a drain on others. “A Beast I am, lest a Beast I become” or something.

More benefits to interacting with Touchstones would be good though.

[CTPhipps]

Almost like vampires aren't the good guys and by their very nature they are a drain on others. “A Beast I am, lest a Beast I become” or something.

More benefits to interacting with Touchstones would be good though.

Make Touchstones able to be vampires and/or objects and like 90% of the game's morality problems are solved.

[Taggie]

The Convictions provided in Cults work really well IMO, which even though not exemplified in the Core certainly were options (Vampiric Paths are mentioned in their write-up after all). I really don't see any need for "True" Paths or Roads, I've had characters do horrible shit and maintain relatively high humanity because their convictions helped.



Almost like vampires aren't the good guys and by their very nature they are a drain on others. “A Beast I am, lest a Beast I become” or something.

More benefits to interacting with Touchstones would be good though.

Vampires aren't the good guys, but the touchstone mechanic is right up there with the implied child abuse primogen and neo fascist Anarchs for edge lord squick. That is apart from the fact it sub contracts out self control, free will and morality. But me hating the Touchstone and Conviction system is well established.

The Paths/Humanity system could do a good job, and while they could be cleaned up, and some Paths where a mess, they did well (if you rolled degeneration checks and actually thought about the ideas they represent) over all.

[SetiteFriend]

Make Touchstones able to be vampires and/or objects and like 90% of the game's morality problems are solved.

And with few exceptions, that defeats the whole point of touchstones. Having a Touchstone be a Vampire is a shitty idea in general, firstly because Vampires die, get exiled, revealed to hold completely different beliefs, etc. all the time, and that is dangerous for your humanity. Even for Sabbat, if one were to model Paths through the current system, I would make Convictions tied to Ritae over other vampires. Secondly, people would for sure get some nobody fledgling, stake them, and leave them eternally paralyzed in a vault somewhere, with the conviction "Destroy my Enemies".

Which brings me to having objects as Touchstones. First of all, it has rampant potential for abuse in order to completely disregard it, you can hide your object somewhere, put it under heavy security, amongst other stuff. And while you could do the same for a mortal, it is much more difficult, as even a comatose patient you keep somewhere, might have issues with their health, medicine, or whatever keeps them alive. Furthermore, how do you stay connected to humanity through a static object?

Bottom line is, keeping Touchstones human prevents a lot of system abuse, unless you were to provide additional drawbacks to it, as I have seen a lot of homebrews do. If you don't want to include Touchstones for whatever reason, I recommend making them a Background or something. As the point of Touchstones is that they keep the characters tied to humans.

[CajunKhan]

Bottom line is, keeping Touchstones human prevents a lot of system abuse, unless you were to provide additional drawbacks to it, as I have seen a lot of homebrews do.

The Beast Marks system in "Long Hard Road Out Of Hell" is outstanding about this, providing a balanced alternate drawback, allowing for personalization of the inhumanity of your character, and creating a way for your character to be blatantly inhuman in a way that isn't about simply going wight.

[Manfr]

Can we try to stay in topic? I've read a lot of threads about how evil and disgusting is V5, I was really interested in actually talking about its fluff 😁

[CTPhipps]

And with few exceptions, that defeats the whole point of touchstones. Having a Touchstone be a Vampire is a shitty idea in general, firstly because Vampires die, get exiled, revealed to hold completely different beliefs, etc. all the time, and that is dangerous for your humanity.

And if your Convictions are not remotely human-related like, "Serve the Camarilla to the best of my ability", "Worship Set with all of my life", and "Gain Power as an Anarch" then Human Touchstones are weird.

Can we try to stay in topic? I've read a lot of threads about how evil and disgusting is V5, I was really interested in actually talking about its fluff 😁

Sure. One fact I kind of regret is we don't have more canon NPC fates.

[SetiteFriend]

And if your Convictions are not remotely human-related like, "Serve the Camarilla to the best of my ability", "Worship Set with all of my life", and "Gain Power as an Anarch" then Human Touchstones are weird.

You could also make them less narrow. "Serving the greater good" or "serve your masters" could very well work for the Camarilla, and way easier to find a mortal that fits. You could also pick your Primogen's 200 year old ghoul if you are feeling reckless. For Set, its literally just picking a Cultist, Cults of Set always have some mortals. "Rise in power" with the local politician that came from nothing, or a rising entrepreneur also works for the Anarch one.

So basically, take less narrow and obviously vampiric convictions. And for cults just take... a cultist.

[Taggie]

You could also make them less narrow. "Serving the greater good" or "serve your masters" could very well work for the Camarilla, and way easier to find a mortal that fits. You could also pick your Primogen's 200 year old ghoul if you are feeling reckless. For Set, its literally just picking a Cultist, Cults of Set always have some mortals. "Rise in power" with the local politician that came from nothing, or a rising entrepreneur also works for the Anarch one.

So basically, take less narrow and obviously vampiric convictions. And for cults just take... a cultist.

TS force a certain type of game, and it's not one that interests me, I also find the idea of TS repulsive at best, I compared it to what I virw it as equal abhorrent as, meaning I see no difference between being forced to play with TS and being forced to play a neo Nazi.

As to the sabbat Luminaries, given the treatment the Sabbat got, I'd be careful what you wished for on finding out.

[CTPhipps]

TS force a certain type of game, and it's not one that interests me, I also find the idea of TS repulsive at best, I compared it to what I virw it as equal abhorrent as, meaning I see no difference between being forced to play with TS and being forced to play a neo Nazi.

As to the sabbat Luminaries, given the treatment the Sabbat got, I'd be careful what you wished for on finding out.

Yeah, you have a very strange idea of Touchstones that basically is the exact opposite of how they're meant to be. As the vast majority of them will be about humans they protect and love with no irony.

Because, "Child I protect from danger" TS is apparently a Neo-Nazi trait in your view (:-p, JK). It's also doubly weird given you prefer playing inhuman monsters.

[Taggie]

Yeah, you have a very strange idea of Touchstones that basically is the exact opposite of how they're meant to be. As the vast majority of them will be about humans they protect and love with no irony.

Because, "Child I protect from danger" TS is apparently a Neo-Nazi trait in your view (:-p, JK). It's also doubly weird given you prefer playing inhuman monsters.

given that even LA By Night had gaslighting and controlling behaviour towards TS, and it is supposed to be the nice one, not seeing how I am missing the point, and is a very human monstrosity that hits far, far to close to home, forcing me into behaviour I have been on the other end of. Inhuman monstrosity is safe, human monstrosity isn't. Predator/Prey is safe, abuser/victim isn't.

[CTPhipps]

given that even LA By Night had gaslighting and controlling behaviour towards TS, and it is supposed to be the nice one, not seeing how I am missing the point, and is a very human monstrosity that hits far, far to close to home, forcing me into behaviour I have been on the other end of. Inhuman monstrosity is safe, human monstrosity isn't. Predator/Prey is safe, abuser/victim isn't.

I think that's because they were trying to subvert what you take as the default.

But that's just me.

[CTPhipps]

ENTIRELY NON-CANON:

Here's how I would do these for the Sabbat in my chronicle that would bridge V20 and V5.

Polonia: Becomes the last Regent of the Sabbat and leads his crusade to the Middle East as a snipe-hunt. He expects to wage war on the Ashirra and the Banu Haqim loyal to Ur-Shulgi. Unfortunately, he finds SOMETHING there that reveals the Antediiluvians are real and alive. Gets eaten by the Lasombra Antediluvian and the Sabbat fragments.

Vykos: Frees themselves from the Dracon and must contemplate what to do with the freedom of their mind for the first time in 800 years. Briefly flirts with redemption before instead they alter the Sabbat into a suicide army that exists solely to kill as many Ancients as possible while they sit softly in their bunker, watching Rome burn. Because they are STILL an Elder vampire.

Lucita: Does the opposite of Vykos and realizes they've made a horrible mistake when they figure out the Sabbat is just charging off to the jaws of the ancients and just another part of their plan. The Sabbat does not accept resignations. She survives Talley "killing" her but the Sabbat use the Regent to make a fake Lucita from Carolina Valez (who escaped Montreal by faking her death). No true friend of Lucita would believe the fake one but Carolina is a charismatic powerful leader.

Gratiano: The 4th generation Lasombra vanishes and is almost certainly either diablerized by the Lasombra Antediluvian or being used as his meat puppet whenever he/it needs a body. My idea is that he's the leader of the Cult of Shalim and has been completely filled with Nephandic levels of omnicidal depression.

Veyla the Vivisectionist: Finally succumbed to wassail and became a two headed Vicissitude monster that the Second Inquisition lost 14 agents trying to take down. In a very weird way, this helped spark the war between the Second and Firstlight.

Joseph Panders: Heroically martyred on the Gehenna Crusade and not actually killed on the orders of Vykos to solidify their behind-the-scenes control of the Sabbat. The Panders bloodline falls apart and is used as cannon-fodder just like they thought they would be.

Goratrix: Tremere is supporting the Sabbat as he, too, wants to use them as cannon fodder against as many ancients as possible.

Harold Zettler: Has effectively tended his resignation from the Sabbat and is now working through Pentex full time. Ironically, he's found himself Beckoned to the Middle East and came back after six months with no memory of the event. Apparently, whatever he met in the desert approved of what he was up to. Weirdly, Harold can't think of anything to make pure capitalism more evil and has resigned himself to working like a Ventrue.

Jalan Aajav: Fought the True Hand in a brutal, terrible, and soul-destroying war that almost completely obliterated the False Hand. He ended up getting slain by the mortals he held in utter contempt instead when Sullivan Dane tracked him down to a descrated Spanish mission and it was blown up by the Mexican Air Force

Phillipe Rigaud: The head of Chicago's Sabbat was prepared to launch a second Crusade against Kevin Jackson when he ended up staked and turned over to Kevin Jackson for burning by Monica Black (who had been kidnapped by the Sabbat and forced into their service).

Wendy Wade: The Tzimisce realized the Sabbat was not for her and has since defected to the Anarchs where she pretends to be a Ventrue or Toreador. She's much happier now.