[V5] Fate of Sabbat luminaries

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

She survives Talley killing her

?? What does this mean?

[monteparnas]

?? What does this mean?

She died, but got better.

As we say here, morreu, mas passa bem.

[CTPhipps]

?? What does this mean?

Missing quotation marks around the killing.

Which is to say that either Talley helped her fake her death or assumed he finished her off but she survived.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Well, this has inspired me to include a brief mention of her in the revised "Hunger from Beyond" book. I imply the Yith were involved in her survival/death.

[Reasor]

Taking out a character as notable as Lucita, offstage, just to build Talley up further would be more of a waste than I think even the current developers are capable of.

Besides, putting the Dominate whammy on your would-be killer and sending him away with false memories of having done the deed has been a signature Lasombra trick since 1405 AD.

[CTPhipps]

Taking out a character as notable as Lucita, offstage, just to build Talley up further would be more of a waste than I think even the current developers are capable of.

Besides, putting the Dominate whammy on your would-be killer and sending him away with false memories of having done the deed has been a signature Lasombra trick since 1405 AD.

While Lucita or Talley could kill the other, I also am inclined to think both are more likely to reach a deal.

[Ragged Robin]

I'd kept lucita in the Sabbat, largely out of spite lol and because constant sect jumping makes her look absurd. My V5 sabbat trims closer to revised but I've shifted vykos to mica to represent his slow rejection of the Dracon. I imagine whoever was regent is quite quite dead following the Lasombra debacle.

[Karos]

I'd kept lucita in the Sabbat, largely out of spite lol and because constant sect jumping makes her look absurd. My V5 sabbat trims closer to revised but I've shifted vykos to mica to represent his slow rejection of the Dracon. I imagine whoever was regent is quite quite dead following the Lasombra debacle.

As far as we're aware there was no Regent following the death of Sikorsky-Galbraith (somewhere between 2000-2016). Since then despite the Gehenna Crusade, the Fourth Sabbat Civil War has resulted in there being no Regent.

Could just be we don't know who's in charge yet, alternatively, it could be the new looser, zealous Sabbat doesn't see the need for such a leader anymore.

[Matt the Bruins fan]

It seems from hints I read earlier in V5 as if Polonia's role with the Gehenna Crusade was less Regent and more a proactive analogue of Karsh's in the Camarilla. He riled the masses and got them to follow him off to war, but didn't seem to be handing marching orders to anyone who remained in their former territories.

[Manfr]

Yay, Christmas Holidays! Finally I have some time for the thread!

First of all, thank you CTPhipps

Polonia: Becomes the last Regent of the Sabbat and leads his crusade to the Middle East as a snipe-hunt. He expects to wage war on the Ashirra and the Banu Haqim loyal to Ur-Shulgi. Unfortunately, he finds SOMETHING there that reveals the Antediiluvians are real and alive. Gets eaten by the Lasombra Antediluvian and the Sabbat fragments.

I like the idea of a Sabbat Civil War, I think it better explains the fragmentation of the Sect: I would keep all of this, but make him just the "Regent of the Crusaders": when the Consistory implodes in Civil War, he uses the moral and emotional backlash to rally zealots from Conservatives, Orthodoxy and Loyalist factions around him. Then he goes on to the East, and his terrible end while chasing some monstrousity is one of the triggers of the Lasombra defection.

After his deat, Bishop Natalio (from Mexico City by Night) takes the initiative and effectively ends the "Code of Milan" Sabbat, using the Civil War and Polonia's martyrdom as the sign that the Good Struggle needs a decentralized leadershiP

Vykos: Frees themselves from the Dracon and must contemplate what to do with the freedom of their mind for the first time in 800 years. Briefly flirts with redemption before instead they alter the Sabbat into a suicide army that exists solely to kill as many Ancients as possible while they sit softly in their bunker, watching Rome burn. Because they are STILL an Elder vampire.

Very fitting: as of BJD, Vykos flirted with the idea of Regency (as a Path paragon, they may be a good candidate for the Orthodoxy?), after their traumatic experience with the Dracon reborn they may be among the highest profile Crusaders.

Might they end up in Europe, organizing crusaders to attack Constantinople and the new Trinity, as they seem to Vykos an unholy merger of Infernalism and Methuselah manipulation?

Which opens up interesting possibilities: as of BJD, we have another Sabbat luminary, Strohmann, trying to conquer Berlin by offering shelter to the Anathema. Dylan Bruce was mentioned as being prominent on Strohmann's list. Dylan is also mentioned as a potential member of the new Infernal Trinity of Constanopole.

A plot point of V20 was that some of the Anathema were toying with the idea of setting up their own Sect: a similar scenery will be included as a Chamber LARP in the new "War of Ages" MET rulebook which recently went on Kickstarter.

Is Strohmann powerful and committed enough to recognize the taint of the Infernal? In this case, he might join with Vykos and crusade against Constatinople to diablerize lots of Methuselas.

Otherwise, he might ally with the Anathema, and make East Berlin into one cancerous base of Infernalists: Vykos may end up joining with ...

(Strohmann may also get killed by the Hecata for his role in slave trade and mistreatment of early Samedi, who knows)

Lucita: Does the opposite of Vykos and realizes they've made a horrible mistake when they figure out the Sabbat is just charging off to the jaws of the ancients and just another part of their plan. The Sabbat does not accept resignations. She survives Talley "killing" her but the Sabbat use the Regent to make a fake Lucita from Carolina Valez (who escaped Montreal by faking her death). No true friend of Lucita would believe the fake one but Carolina is a charismatic powerful leader.

The idea of a "fake" Lucita being a moving target for enemies is really nice: I would have placed Carolina Valez among the Sabbat defectors, considering her political misfortunes and her insane relationship with what we would call a Touchstone.

However, Lucita has witnessed the rise of an Antediluvian: I think she wouldn't come back from this "less Sabbat", but perhaps a "smart Sabbat". She might join with Sandoza and others (perhaps even Vykos) trying to fight a guerrilla war against the Ancients on their own terms. If we want to take some inspiration from GEHENNA, she and other signature characters might create the Nephtali as a new Sabbat "faction". Vykos may be involved.

I would make her failed political bid the product of Friends of the Night's opposition: too close to Vasantasena, too unrealible, they supported Charles Delmare as a leader, only to see Moderates rebelling. She then retakes her old Antitribu moniker, as a sign of open disdain against her manipulatory elders.

But I like her twisted depiction on the cover of the Sabbat manual, and I think it would be interesting to see her in the "new Sabbat" (which, after all, needs interesting and powerful figures).

Gratiano: The 4th generation Lasombra vanishes and is almost certainly either diablerized by the Lasombra Antediluvian or being used as his meat puppet whenever he/it needs a body. My idea is that he's the leader of the Cult of Shalim and has been completely filled with Nephandic levels of omnicidal depression.

Goratrix: Tremere is supporting the Sabbat as he, too, wants to use them as cannon fodder against as many ancients as possible.

Joseph Panders: Heroically martyred on the Gehenna Crusade and not actually killed on the orders of Vykos to solidify their behind-the-scenes control of the Sabbat. The Panders bloodline falls apart and is used as cannon-fodder just like they thought they would be.


Harold Zettler: Has effectively tended his resignation from the Sabbat and is now working through Pentex full time. Ironically, he's found himself Beckoned to the Middle East and came back after six months with no memory of the event. Apparently, whatever he met in the desert approved of what he was up to. Weirdly, Harold can't think of anything to make pure capitalism more evil and has resigned himself to working like a Ventrue.

These, I find very appropriate. I think that Pander may have briefly been very important in the Sabbat Crusade movement, though, and that Panders are now probably enjoying their best moment, as Clan is now something frowned upon

Veyla the Vivisectionist: Finally succumbed to wassail and became a two headed Vicissitude monster that the Second Inquisition lost 14 agents trying to take down. In a very weird way, this helped spark the war between the Second and Firstlight.


Jalan Aajav: Fought the True Hand in a brutal, terrible, and soul-destroying war that almost completely obliterated the False Hand. He ended up getting slain by the mortals he held in utter contempt instead when Sullivan Dane tracked him down to a descrated Spanish mission and it was blown up by the Mexican Air Force

I'd keep Jalan killed by early FIRSTLIGHT: his early demise I feel can explain a lot of why the Sabbat devolves into Civil War. I will try to write a post about my vision of the Fourth Sabbat Civil War, but I'd think that having Jalan killed early allows True Black Hand agents to prepare the collapse of the Sabbat through decapitation strikes.

[Leandro16]

Lucita is a powerful elder with the mind of a broken teenage girl.

In my games there is no master plan with her involved, no complex plots or vendettas, she has always been an unstable pawn with great affinity for the gifts of the blood.

And i like her that way, not all elders need to be master manipulators... some can survive due to sheer luck or in lucita case raw power. It gives color to the undead life.

Let´s remember that in her lowest Lucita just randomly raped and cut the guts of a dude in Moncada garden just to spite him. I have seen saner malkavians.

[RadioFreeDeath]

I'd keep Jalan killed by early FIRSTLIGHT: his early demise I feel can explain a lot of why the Sabbat devolves into Civil War. I will try to write a post about my vision of the Fourth Sabbat Civil War, but I'd think that having Jalan killed early allows True Black Hand agents to prepare the collapse of the Sabbat through decapitation strikes.

I would love to hear your version of the Sabbat fourth civil war. I'm currently preparing a 5e México city game that i want to start at the tail end of civil war as camarilla and anarchs filter into the city and have to unravel what went down and the aftermath.

[Manfr]

I would love to hear your version of the Sabbat fourth civil war. I'm currently preparing a 5e México city game that i want to start at the tail end of civil war as camarilla and anarchs filter into the city and have to unravel what went down and the aftermath.

Thank you really!

Here's my idea of how the Sabbat fell:

A Breakdown of Sabbat Civil War

Melinda Galbraith is assassinated by unknown entities at the 2000 Great Ball: an hidden conspiracy between three Sabbat luminaries, - loyalist Vasantasaena, Black Hand Seraph Jalan Aajav and Inquisitor Supreme Maria Sandoza - puts Zachary Sikorsky, the last vampire to see the Regent alive, in her place.
The three fear Sabbat has lost direction, and has become corrupt and complacent, while also suspecting internal subversion, at the hands of Infernalist minions: Galbraiths’ death has probably been orchestrated by them, or at least by Sandoza, in an attempt to free the Sabbat from Shaitan’s manipulations.

The Sect is in flux: the Great American Crusade has drained the resources of the Sabbat in an all-out war with the Camarilla that has lasted for nearly a decade, and the Week of Nightmares has sparked a fear of Gehenna. While Sandoza and Vasantasena try to purge the Sabbat silently, providing opportunities for striking against tyrannical elders like Moncada, Jalan uses intelligence provided by Kazimir Savostin to pierce the veil behind the True Black Hand.

However, time works against the three: on 09/11/2001, Al Quaeda strikes the World Trade Center. In a desperate move to protect his position from purges, Cardinal Polonia declares himself as the mind behind the attack: a week later, Jalan Aajav is killed by Project FIRSTLIGHT in one of the opening moves of the Second Inquisition.
As the Second Inquisition strikes down Sabbat vampires and clears Sabbat-held cities, many prophets of doom foretell the End Times are here, and are determined to bring the war against the Antediluvians in their homes.

The rising Crusader movement cuts across the traditional Sabbat factions: Conservatives like Polonia and Charles Delmare are strong proponent of the Gehenna Crusade, which is also extremely popular with the Orthodoxy, Alfred Benezri being a strong proponent, but also fascinating for many Loyalists, like Natalio and Joseph Pander, and for niche groups like the Salubri Antitribu.
As the New World becomes increasingly inhospitable, many in the Sabbat follow the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, and raid ancient tombs and shrines looking for the Ancients. Jalan’s death means that no one is left to vouch between the silent Junta behind “Galbraith” and the Lost Tribe, which eagerly supports the Crusader movement. Savostin, now acting as First Seraph, desperately tries to stop this madness, but zealotry cannot be manipulated from behind.

Those who don’t join the Crusade are increasingly vocal: what is the Regent going to do, with all the efforts of the last 15 years of war crushed by the Inquisition? And if the Sabbat is going to become a marching Army, what about damn freedom? Maybe this Gehenna madness it’s just another plot of the Elders …

2004 is the moment when all the contradictions of the Sword of Caine explode … along with the Regent.

As tides of blood engulf the Middle East, Ur-Shulgi awakens and shatters the Tremere curse, while the Beckoning manifests.

These are the signs the True Hand was waiting for. Djuha and Izhim-ur-Baal issue their “Order-66”: the Regent and a good chunk of the Consistory are killed in an explosion in Mexico City, while the Seraphim disappear.

In the following days, as ciphers are broken and orders delivered, columns of the Black Hand all over the world attack their Sabbat brethren, most of them thinking they are purging the Sects from traitors. The Seraphim and many Assamite Antitribu then reach for Alamut, leaving behind a Sect in chaos and paranoia. The blame game starts along with the rush for the Regency.

Here’s the lineup:

Conservatives - the far-right faction of the Sabbat boasts no less than three candidates for the Regency, with two of them who are serious at it. Francisco Domingo de Polonia is the leading figure of the Gehenna Crusade, and supports all-out mobilization of the Sabbat against the Ancients in the Middle East, while Charles Delmare stresses the need for purges and reforms, asking for the elimination of dissident Paths and a greater role for the Inquisition. The third candidate, Radu Bistri, enters the race mostly at the behest of Tzimisce elders, ready to pledge his support to whomever comes on the top, to preserve the entente between the old Fiends and the Sabbat leadership.

Orthodox - religious zealots among the Sabbat have been on the rise, as Montreal and Sao Paulo try to eclipse corrupt Mexico City as the hearts of the Sect. Sascha Vykos, paragon of Necronomists and Metamorphosist thought, is their most credited candidate.

Status Quo - Venere Carboni rallies influential Antitribu on an agenda on fighting the Camarilla on known grounds, but Galbraith’s clique has been increasingly discredited, and many of her supporters have been killed in the last months. The Inquisition and single luminaries like Elieser de Polanco and Alfred Benezri support Lucita de Aragon, who wants to focus on fighting the Antidiluvians but without committing the entire Sect to a mammoth war effort in the East.

Moderates - many young and unpoliticized members of the Sabbat are voting with their feet, deserting the Gehenna War and Sect politics altogether. Those who are strongly committed to Sabbat politics throw their support behind the Mother of Horrors, Jolande Vlaszy Szecheniy, a Tzimisce bishop based in Mexico City, or behind the Nosferatu Archbishop of Berlin, Strohmann, who advocates for a more ecumenical Sect, reaching out to Red Listers and vampires displaced by the Inquisition and the increasingly xenophobic Camarilla.

Loyalists: as Dominique throws her hat in the race, many Loyalists support the Anarch-like proposals of the Ventrue Antitribu - but others, led by Natalio and Joseph Pander, follow the sirens of the Gehenna Crusade.

Events unfold quickly: suddenly, Vykos disappears from Washington D.C., while Lucita tries to win over the Amici Noctis, but she’s too an iconoclast. Most of them support a strong hand, like Charles Delmare, to consolidate leadership and give the rabble discipline.

Emboldened by the Amici Noctis support, Charles denounces Galbraith as an Infernalist and tries to seize Mexico City: Venere Carboni, however, has the greatest following in Mexico City, and routes Charles to South America.

When Carboni tries to gather what remains of the Consistory, however, the Mother of Horrors unleashes her creations: chaos follows in Mexico City. In the Middle East, Polonia quietly issues his own Pronunciamiento, calling his rivals mere politicians who are wasting precious Sabbat lives while the fight for Gehenna has begun.

The Fourth Sabbat Civil War has officially begun.

Polonia’s reign is the shortest: he leads his war-pack against something old and terrible in the Middle East, and disappears. Charles Delmare tries to win over his supporters by pledging support for the Gehenna crusade and announcing widespread purges of the Sabbar: whole Paths, like the Lilins, are denounced as hereticals and purged.

When Lucita investigates the disappearance of Polonia, she discovers that a being called Shalim is eagerly awaiting Sabbat crusaders: she spreads words of this being of Oblivion, and panic and outrage explode in the Sect. If the Lasombra Antediluvian wasn’t killed, the whole Sect has been manipulated by the Magisters for centuries: and who knows what has happened to the Tzimisce Antediluvian?

The Sabbat turns on its former masters: Charles Delmare is assassinated as Sabbat’s would-be tyrant and the Amici Noctis retaliate by organizing the Lasombra defection to the Camarilla, severely hitting the Sabbat chain-of-command and logistics, as the Kings and Queens of the Night withdraw financial support and direct the Inquisition against former allies.

Venere Carboni tries to keep the Sect together relying on Tzimisce revenants, but the Grimaldis betray the Sword of Caine and give Mexico City to Fiorenza Savona and her cohorts, while Jolande goes underground in Mexico City with her monstrosities, organizing the resistance against the invaders. Carboni is killed in the new Elysium as the Camarilla celebrates victory.

The fall of Mexico City is the last blow: Vasantasena and Dominique publicly denounce the Sect as a failed experiment, and join the Anarchs. Radu Bistri negotiates the membership of Old Clan Tzimisce in the Ivory Tower soon after. The Order of Saint Blaise also takes the chance to defect, joining with the new Church of Caine, with many Antitribu hiding within Blood Gods or in the Circulatory System.

In the Middle East, now-Cardinals Natalio, Joseph Pander and Raziel announce that the old Sabbat is dead: Regency is no more, as well as other tools of oppression and elder oppression, like the Code of Milan, the Black Hand and the Inquisition, even Pack Ducti and Clans. Canon Paths are established, heretical Paths forsaken and persecuted, and connection with mortals abandoned, Revenants denounced as traitors for their role in the fall of Mexico City.

The head of the Sabbat was cut, but like the Hydra another hundred heads will be born, and the fight against the Antediluvians will be fought till the end.
Vykos and Lucita quietly come out of hiding, pledging themselves to the Gehenna Crusade, while working relentlessly to uncover the truth about both Gehenna and the Infernal Pits which are opening everywhere, drawing Cainites in their furnaces of doom.

[monteparnas]

Orthodox - religious zealots among the Sabbat have been on the rise, as Montreal and Sao Paulo try to eclipse corrupt Mexico City as the hearts of the Sect. Sascha Vykos, paragon of Necronomists and Metamorphosist thought, is their most credited candidate.

It's interesting how São Paulo, the most populous city in the Americas, a gigantic hub of commerce, finance, art, entertainment and science, center of a megalopolis with more than 30 million inhabitants, the 11^th in the world by GDP and home to the biggest LGBTQIA+ Pride Parade in the world, is just mentioned in VtM by its church...

Otherwise you did an interesting and thorough job, but I think it has a number of things that don't work for me. The biggest problem is that it focus too much on global politics and gives no idea on how things are running in the streets proper. I don't see most Sabbat members organizing politically around the big global figureheads of the sect. They organize around local figureheads as the big politics filter down a number of steps.

Another big one is the big focus on the Middle East. This was one of the most stupid things in the V5 core and they've been quietly retconing this silly focus for a reason. Yes, the crib of vampires is the Middle East, and that's a good place to start investigating matters, but it isn't likely that the Ancients will still be concentrated there, for no other reason than to make the Sabbat's work easier, apparently.

My personal headcanon, either way, is that the American wars on the Middle East are far more linked to Camarilla intervention than anything else, as they serve much more a purpose on fueling money to the arms and military industry than anything else. I did like the bit where the Sabbat claiming responsibility for September 11^th was just a desperate political gamble, though, that was clever.

[Manfr]

Thank you for the comment, you're always insightful!

It's interesting how São Paulo, the most populous city in the Americas, a gigantic hub of commerce, finance, art, entertainment and science, center of a megalopolis with more than 30 million inhabitants, the 11^th in the world by GDP and home to the biggest LGBTQIA+ Pride Parade in the world, is just mentioned in VtM by its church...

Yeah, I'd really like to see a well done, with local insight, setting book about South America, WW has put really low efforts in detailing it.

Otherwise you did an interesting and thorough job, but I think it has a number of things that don't work for me. The biggest problem is that it focus too much on global politics and gives no idea on how things are running in the streets proper. I don't see most Sabbat members organizing politically around the big global figureheads of the sect. They organize around local figureheads as the big politics filter down a number of steps.

Thank you again! You're right, this was too focused on luminaries, but to focus it on the street level it would have taken another 3 Google Docs pages probably! :-) I'll try to put down some ideas, however, I really like "The Fall of House Sabbat" as a plot point, I think it's a shame it wasn't used more in setting material.

Another big one is the big focus on the Middle East. This was one of the most stupid things in the V5 core and they've been quietly retconing this silly focus for a reason. Yes, the crib of vampires is the Middle East, and that's a good place to start investigating matters, but it isn't likely that the Ancients will still be concentrated there, for no other reason than to make the Sabbat's work easier, apparently.

I'm personally fine with the Middle East being the starting front of the Gehenna War, provided it's an extended Middle East (from Maghreb to Central Asia). Of course, I'd see the War spreading soon after, to Africa, India and the Mediterranean. South America I feel would become a front after the fall of Charles Delmare, as the Drowned rise and resurrect their elders, and conquer isolated Sabbat domains.