[V5] Fate of Sabbat luminaries

[CTPhipps]

My personal headcanon, either way, is that the American wars on the Middle East are far more linked to Camarilla intervention than anything else, as they serve much more a purpose on fueling money to the arms and military industry than anything else. I did like the bit where the Sabbat claiming responsibility for September 11^th was just a desperate political gamble, though, that was clever.

I disliked it because of the American focus. I don't see any reason the Sabbat are so lamely one-dimensionally evil they'd be impressed by a mortal terrorist attack that primrarily killed humans.

And the Gehenna War should be against something like the Elders and Haqim's loyalists.

Not something influenced by the War on Terror.

[monteparnas]

I disliked it because of the American focus. I don't see any reason the Sabbat are so lamely one-dimensionally evil they'd be impressed by a mortal terrorist attack that primrarily killed humans.

And the Gehenna War should be against something like the Elders and Haqim's loyalists.

Not something influenced by the War on Terror.

I don't think the Sabbat would be impressed by the War on Terror or by a terrorist attack, but I do think a politician in a desperate enough position will jump on any perceived opportunity to save face, even claiming authorship for stupid, unrelated actions. Like how ISIS had for a long time a policy of claiming authorship for anything resembling a terrorist attack.

Otherwise, it isn't completely American focus as the US made this everyone's issue too. To begin with, it was the biggest Terrorist attack by a non-state party in history. But the War on Terror affected politics the world around as American economic and military pressure did affected markets, migration, strategy, international policies, etc. It was not for love to the US, but we had to adapt.

[Manfr]

I disliked it because of the American focus. I don't see any reason the Sabbat are so lamely one-dimensionally evil they'd be impressed by a mortal terrorist attack that primrarily killed humans.

And the Gehenna War should be against something like the Elders and Haqim's loyalists.

Not something influenced by the War on Terror.

Well, the Sabbat likes to think of themselves as Ubermenschen, but most of them are evil human sociopaths, so they are bound to be impressed by something that big.

I agree the main front should be against Ur Shulgi and his TBH (and Baali) allies: I do think it's fairly well established in canon material that Sabbat people just took the chance of the Global War on Terror to wage their own conflict (which was a mix of Manifest Destiny, desperate run and self delusion).

[RadioFreeDeath]

That was a really good fourth civil war breakdown. I'll probably steal a bunch of it! Thanks!

[Manfr]

That was a really good fourth civil war breakdown. I'll probably steal a bunch of it! Thanks!

Feel free and thank you really!

[Manfr]

Thinking about...

What would Harold Zettler do, during and after the Fourth Sabbat Civil War?
He is one of the biggest Priscus in the Consistory, after all, and the gayeway to an important ally and source of power, funding and military assets. So, I suppose most factions would court him.

He could also just go rogue, and recruit former Sabbat as Pentex shock troops.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

What would Harold Zettler do, during and after the Fourth Sabbat Civil War?

I think he would stop taking phone calls from members of the Sabbat. He's got a good (and safe) gig lined up with Pentex and he doesn't need or want to risk his neck on someone else's war. He would probably hook the Sabbat up with weapons and services from Pentex, for a cut of the money of course.

[Manfr]

I think he would stop taking phone calls from members of the Sabbat. He's got a good (and safe) gig lined up with Pentex and he doesn't need or want to risk his neck on someone else's war. He would probably hook the Sabbat up with weapons and services from Pentex, for a cut of the money of course.

But should the Sabbat collapse without his guiding hand behind the curtains, would he still have enough punch in the Pentex Boars of Directors? Is he there more as liaison with the Sabbat, or as a powerful infernalist?

[monteparnas]

But should the Sabbat collapse without his guiding hand behind the curtains, would he still have enough punch in the Pentex Boars of Directors? Is he there more as liaison with the Sabbat, or as a powerful infernalist?

Even if he entered as a liaison, once there it's easier to find ways to stay, specially if he cuts ties precisely because he has info to justify the Board cutting ties. And I don't see Pentex wanting to be caught too involved with zealots that look so much to them as a bloodier Garou Nation.

[Manfr]

Bump!

So, I came across Apacia ( https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Apacia ): a 2500-year old Scythian Cappadocian biker straight out of "From Dusk till Dawn" who is also one of Vykos' lovers, as well as a contact for the Tal Mae Rah and a paragon of the Harbingers of Skulls.

What do you think she would up to, in V5?

I think she would still be around, as the Beckoning doesn't affect the various Hecata bloodlines, unless her Dracon taint makes her suffer the Beckoning from the Tzimisce antidiluvian: admittedly, a biker gang riding the steppes led by a Scythian khaleesi would be friggin' cool.

Would she join the Hecata or stay with the Sabbat? Or perhaps both? Would she and Vykos lead a righteous crusade against the Infernalist Trinity in Byzantium?

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

The Sabbat is not now what it was when Apacia nominally joined it. And most of the Harbringers have left what remains of the Sabbat for the microsect that is the Hecata, So she is probably with them, so long as they don't get in the way of her ability to ride and raise hell.

[monteparnas]

I don't think it would be as straightforward with her because Apacia is a traitor herself. She may have been betrayed in turn, but she still sold the clan to Augustus. While she could be interested in the Hecata, I think she would face higher animosity there than normal even for a Giovanni.

While this could still work, my personal bet is that she would end up among the Anarchs instead.

[Manfr]

I don't think it would be as straightforward with her because Apacia is a traitor herself. She may have been betrayed in turn, but she still sold the clan to Augustus. While she could be interested in the Hecata, I think she would face higher animosity there than normal even for a Giovanni.

While this could still work, my personal bet is that she would end up among the Anarchs instead.

That was my thought too, even though Lazarus and many Harbingers share her hatred of the Founder: I suppose it would boil down to how much her betrayal would be known among the wider Hecata community.

In any case, she would be tremendously cool also as the Anarch Baroness of the Mexican Motorcycle Snake Cult of Death. Either that, or my alternative headcanon is that she's leading the ever-growing Sabbat pack hunting for something in Siberia shown in V5 Sabbat book.

[Banu_Saulot]

I've come to see the Sabbat as a collection of cults (and esbats), sub-sects, packs, clan groups, lineages and schools of thought since the Sabbat V5 book, and kind of built it in my mind and game as made from all those groups preexisting or not before the Anarch Revolt. So I see that at the V5 time the sect was mixed and broken down into some of its original components, while a part of the sect was melted and amalgamed turning into the fanatical crusaders guided only by the Vinculum, the few regional leaders with sway and the Paths.

In a way I see many of the ex-Sabbat either thinking that this mass of madmen is either usable for their interest, a threat or a disgusting failure of their project. Just like the Camarilla chopped its excesses and "disposable" bits (and some ripped themselves off of it like Brujahs), this "new" Sabbat radicalized after all these years of no progress in the cause, bickering, come and go sect-war... etc. and with the surge of the Gehenna events and Beckoning the spark was truck and things got nuts.

So... I'm not soo keen on every Sabbat Luminaires to be honest, and this forum did a great job putting every piece on the table, but I see that most of them are either doing their own thing now with a couple of its loyal colleagues, are trying to undo this fragmentation of the sect, or are taking total advantage of this wave of fanatical and ruthless sabbats but are not part of them (not mostly I don't think). And this means we got a lot of de facto anarchs or autarkis coming in. It's a revival of the Burning Times in a way.