I've come to see the Sabbat as a collection of cults (and esbats), sub-sects, packs, clan groups, lineages and schools of thought since the Sabbat V5 book, and kind of built it in my mind and game as made from all those groups preexisting or not before the Anarch Revolt. So I see that at the V5 time the sect was mixed and broken down into some of its original components, while a part of the sect was melted and amalgamed turning into the fanatical crusaders guided only by the Vinculum, the few regional leaders with sway and the Paths.
In a way I see many of the ex-Sabbat either thinking that this mass of madmen is either usable for their interest, a threat or a disgusting failure of their project. Just like the Camarilla chopped its excesses and "disposable" bits (and some ripped themselves off of it like Brujahs), this "new" Sabbat radicalized after all these years of no progress in the cause, bickering, come and go sect-war... etc. and with the surge of the Gehenna events and Beckoning the spark was truck and things got nuts.
So... I'm not soo keen on every Sabbat Luminaires to be honest, and this forum did a great job putting every piece on the table, but I see that most of them are either doing their own thing now with a couple of its loyal colleagues, are trying to undo this fragmentation of the sect, or are taking total advantage of this wave of fanatical and ruthless sabbats but are not part of them (not mostly I don't think). And this means we got a lot of de facto anarchs or autarkis coming in. It's a revival of the Burning Times in a way.
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Originally posted by monteparnas View PostI don't think it would be as straightforward with her because Apacia is a traitor herself. She may have been betrayed in turn, but she still sold the clan to Augustus. While she could be interested in the Hecata, I think she would face higher animosity there than normal even for a Giovanni.
While this could still work, my personal bet is that she would end up among the Anarchs instead.
That was my thought too, even though Lazarus and many Harbingers share her hatred of the Founder: I suppose it would boil down to how much her betrayal would be known among the wider Hecata community.
In any case, she would be tremendously cool also as the Anarch Baroness of the Mexican Motorcycle Snake Cult of Death. Either that, or my alternative headcanon is that she's leading the ever-growing Sabbat pack hunting for something in Siberia shown in V5 Sabbat book.Last edited by Manfr; 01-20-2022, 04:33 PM.
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I don't think it would be as straightforward with her because Apacia is a traitor herself. She may have been betrayed in turn, but she still sold the clan to Augustus. While she could be interested in the Hecata, I think she would face higher animosity there than normal even for a Giovanni.
While this could still work, my personal bet is that she would end up among the Anarchs instead.
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The Sabbat is not now what it was when Apacia nominally joined it. And most of the Harbringers have left what remains of the Sabbat for the microsect that is the Hecata, So she is probably with them, so long as they don't get in the way of her ability to ride and raise hell.
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Bump!
So, I came across Apacia ( https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Apacia ): a 2500-year old Scythian Cappadocian biker straight out of "From Dusk till Dawn" who is also one of Vykos' lovers, as well as a contact for the Tal Mae Rah and a paragon of the Harbingers of Skulls.
What do you think she would up to, in V5?
I think she would still be around, as the Beckoning doesn't affect the various Hecata bloodlines, unless her Dracon taint makes her suffer the Beckoning from the Tzimisce antidiluvian: admittedly, a biker gang riding the steppes led by a Scythian khaleesi would be friggin' cool.
Would she join the Hecata or stay with the Sabbat? Or perhaps both? Would she and Vykos lead a righteous crusade against the Infernalist Trinity in Byzantium?Last edited by Manfr; 01-20-2022, 07:02 AM.
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Originally posted by Manfr View PostBut should the Sabbat collapse without his guiding hand behind the curtains, would he still have enough punch in the Pentex Boars of Directors? Is he there more as liaison with the Sabbat, or as a powerful infernalist?
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Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
I think he would stop taking phone calls from members of the Sabbat. He's got a good (and safe) gig lined up with Pentex and he doesn't need or want to risk his neck on someone else's war. He would probably hook the Sabbat up with weapons and services from Pentex, for a cut of the money of course.
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Originally posted by Manfr View PostWhat would Harold Zettler do, during and after the Fourth Sabbat Civil War?
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Thinking about...
What would Harold Zettler do, during and after the Fourth Sabbat Civil War?
He is one of the biggest Priscus in the Consistory, after all, and the gayeway to an important ally and source of power, funding and military assets. So, I suppose most factions would court him.
He could also just go rogue, and recruit former Sabbat as Pentex shock troops.
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That was a really good fourth civil war breakdown. I'll probably steal a bunch of it! Thanks!
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Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
I disliked it because of the American focus. I don't see any reason the Sabbat are so lamely one-dimensionally evil they'd be impressed by a mortal terrorist attack that primrarily killed humans.
And the Gehenna War should be against something like the Elders and Haqim's loyalists.
Not something influenced by the War on Terror.
I agree the main front should be against Ur Shulgi and his TBH (and Baali) allies: I do think it's fairly well established in canon material that Sabbat people just took the chance of the Global War on Terror to wage their own conflict (which was a mix of Manifest Destiny, desperate run and self delusion).
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Originally posted by CTPhipps View PostI disliked it because of the American focus. I don't see any reason the Sabbat are so lamely one-dimensionally evil they'd be impressed by a mortal terrorist attack that primrarily killed humans.
And the Gehenna War should be against something like the Elders and Haqim's loyalists.
Not something influenced by the War on Terror.
Otherwise, it isn't completely American focus as the US made this everyone's issue too. To begin with, it was the biggest Terrorist attack by a non-state party in history. But the War on Terror affected politics the world around as American economic and military pressure did affected markets, migration, strategy, international policies, etc. It was not for love to the US, but we had to adapt.
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Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
My personal headcanon, either way, is that the American wars on the Middle East are far more linked to Camarilla intervention than anything else, as they serve much more a purpose on fueling money to the arms and military industry than anything else. I did like the bit where the Sabbat claiming responsibility for September 11th was just a desperate political gamble, though, that was clever.
And the Gehenna War should be against something like the Elders and Haqim's loyalists.
Not something influenced by the War on Terror.
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Thank you for the comment, you're always insightful!
Originally posted by monteparnas View PostIt's interesting how São Paulo, the most populous city in the Americas, a gigantic hub of commerce, finance, art, entertainment and science, center of a megalopolis with more than 30 million inhabitants, the 11th in the world by GDP and home to the biggest LGBTQIA+ Pride Parade in the world, is just mentioned in VtM by its church...
Originally posted by monteparnas View PostOtherwise you did an interesting and thorough job, but I think it has a number of things that don't work for me. The biggest problem is that it focus too much on global politics and gives no idea on how things are running in the streets proper. I don't see most Sabbat members organizing politically around the big global figureheads of the sect. They organize around local figureheads as the big politics filter down a number of steps.
Originally posted by monteparnas View PostAnother big one is the big focus on the Middle East. This was one of the most stupid things in the V5 core and they've been quietly retconing this silly focus for a reason. Yes, the crib of vampires is the Middle East, and that's a good place to start investigating matters, but it isn't likely that the Ancients will still be concentrated there, for no other reason than to make the Sabbat's work easier, apparently.Last edited by Manfr; 12-26-2021, 01:27 PM.
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