No one expects the Second Inquisition!

[CTPhipps]

I don't dispute Raziel's perspective whatsoever and I think it's extremely valuable. I was just sharing dissenting opinions I've heard from people I know to be giving their own perspective.

Like I said, I don't feel I'm qualified to discuss the subject and don't think my own encounters from people are 100% of the view. It could be very different.

So I'll just drop any further commentary on it.

Thanks for sharing that thoughts, though.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Back to the subject at hand...

Please let us know if you think the S.I. book is worth purchasing, even with its flaws.

I do, and will encourage people to get it with the caveat it has flaws which a Storyteller may need to address.

[Damian May]

That's the whole problem.

You didn't noticed, but you're talking from your experience even while an actual Asian player that plays a Camarilla game is telling you eliminating KOTE isn't cool.

All the problems you addressed are real. No one said otherwise. Your experience was probably the experience of many others around the "western world". But we're not just talking Asian-Americans, we're not just talking LARP, we're not just talking the problems it caused 23 years ago.

We're talking the game now, and the other options to deal with the problem. You keep addressing it as if anyone disagreeing with you simply didn't recognized the problem and eliminating the Kuei-Jin was the only possible solution. No one is asking to leave things as they were. What we're saying is that this option is actually even worse.

Erasure isn't a nice thing. "Minorities" have to deal with it all the time, the "pretending we don't exist". It isn't just about not having a given representation in the fiction, but the whole attitude of lets just pretend it never happened. Almost any solution that recognizes the group exists or existed is better than just pretending it never was;

How to solve this? Have the Kuei-Jin not be such a numerous presence in Asia and/or not be so racist towards Kindred. You don't need to eliminate KOTE to have Asian kindred in equal or even superior numbers. You don't need to eliminate KOTE to have the Camarilla as a relevant presence in Asia. You don't have to eliminate KOTE to reveal that the old depiction of Asia's undead is actually propaganda from a small number of Kuei-Jin that are like that but the reality is something else altogether. You have plenty of options that address the problem without erasing a splat and what it represents after 23 years.

On another note, stop shouting about China and Japan all the time. Asia has almost 50 countries! You keep circling around the same two or three of them again and again. Have you considered that maybe people in other Asian countries also play this game? And that maybe what is a valid concern for China or Japan isn't for them? Raziel specifically cited their game to be set on the Philippines, an Asian country you never once acknowledged, maybe their country, maybe not.

Thankyou.

I mean it.

[Damian May]

I think the problem, or thing that you're missing, is that Raziel is an Asian player who disagrees with your position, and you don't really seem to be engaging with their perspective beyond vaguely acknowledging that "there's no way to handle this that makes everyone happy." You keep falling back on your personal experience that says "Asian/Asian-American players want this" without really responding to the Asian player telling you right now that they don't want this. Your statements generally seem to come across as blanket statements of "this is the way it is" even as someone presents evidence that it's not a comprehensive description of the situation, and you just keep leaning on your personal experiences without really discussing the other side. You are kind of talking over one of the people you are claiming to represent with your perspective.

Has there ever been a thread asking for Asian players specifically to provide their opinions on KOTE and how it ought to be handled? The fact that the majority of Asian fans you have personally spoken to have expressed a distaste for KOTE doesn't necessarily mean that they are the majority of all Asian fans. Or what kind of majority; 9 out of 10 Asian fans disliking KOTE would justify retconning them out of existence a lot more than 6 out of 10, even if both of those are technically majorities. If it's more along the lines of the latter example, the kind of compromise that some people have discussed where the Wan Kuei remain but are no longer represented as Yellow Peril jingoists with an iron-grip on all of Asia might make more sense than just giving them the Gypsies treatment.

Its literally the same everytime I bring up my Indonesian, Indigenous and Melanesian players of the last two decades that enjoy KotE ( albeit, a version of KotE that I've invested a great deal of time in improving), their existence is erased and ignored and certain people keep bringing up examples of whitefellas from 20 years ago being dickheads as a reason not to allow Asian ( and other) players a choice in what they play.

[CajunKhan]

I think that in attempting to be profoundly moral, there is always a danger of becoming the Inquisition. It's happened periodically throughout history both before and after the actual inquisition. The total purge of the KOTE may very well be another example of it. History also shows that there is always a backlash against these inquisition flareups. People start demanding to have fun again and get fed up with suffocating moralizing.

[Kharnov]

I didn't originally want to carry on about this because the topic had been dropped, but I do not think CTPhipps was being intentionally dismissive, and he did explicitly say that whatever decisions end up being made ought to be made in collaboration with Asian players. I just noticed that he was almost always talking about things other than what Raziel said, either his personal experience with other Asian players or the fact that, regardless of anyone else's opinion, the developers seem to have decided on a blanket retcon. I haven't followed this topic closely enough to say whether or not they have actually sought out comprehensive feedback from Asian players, or if they are just going with what they think is the "safe" option without necessarily checking with everyone first; I am really just taking CTPhipps' word about that decision even being made, though I feel pretty safe doing that.

But I do also think that a different thread should probably be created or resurrected if people want to keep discussing this; this one is supposed to be about the new Second Inquisition book.

[CTPhipps]

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...tra-respectful

The Wan Kuei thread is something I'm opening up for discussion but will be watched very carefully.

[Karos]

The Wan Kuei thread is something I'm opening up for discussion but will be watched very carefully.

Whilst an important discussion I'm glad that KotE is being moved to its own thread.

---

Returning to the Inquisition book I had two queries:
1) What do people think of the claim this book is a 'monster manual' for VTM? In several reviews and comments, I've seen both the Sabbat and Second Inquisition books have been labelled (and derided) for the number of statblocks included for antagonist STC's.

Personally, I like them as an idea. It's nice to have the generalised character types combined with a fixed mechanical base. An ST can take the generic 'Lonewolf' template and refine them into an interesting antagonist by thinking about how they are as a character.

The issue I think, that creates this accusation, is the lack of accompanying setting/lore information. We know little about the SI in any specifics (a trend with V5's more 'lore-agnostic' style) with the exception of a few key domains.

2) Has anyone looked at actually building an 'Op-For' for their chronicle? I've got plans for a London based chronicle at some point in the future and have quite a developed idea of what the SI's presence will look like in terms of characters. However, with the various NPC types, I'm interested in which will best support the various characters I've got.

There's a mix of: Operation: Antigen, an Entity attache (and his guards), the Arcanum, and some conventional politicians, police, and intelligence agents.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

2) Has anyone looked at actually building an 'Op-For' for their chronicle? I've got plans for a London based chronicle at some point in the future and have quite a developed idea of what the SI's presence will look like in terms of characters.

I believe books like this will start appearing on the Vault. And there will probably be books on regions not really covered by the SI book.

[monteparnas]

I do not think CTPhipps was being intentionally dismissive,

Me neither, and while the conversation got heated and thorny, I really think he was doing his best, as were most of us.

Carrying on...

1) What do people think of the claim this book is a 'monster manual' for VTM?

Seems true, as it is true for the Sabbat book, yet I see no reason for derision.

What's the problem with that at all? Won't you need stats for the antagonist once they show on your game? Why should the game not help you with sample stats? Why is it bad in any way, shape or form? I have my worries about the book based on some comments, but that's not one of them at all.

2) Has anyone looked at actually building an 'Op-For' for their chronicle?

While I do, I'm not only still without the book (my fridge broke, had to buy a new one on the fly, my finances aren't great right now), but also my use will be adapting it to another setting (either modified V20 or Requiem), so I'm not sure how much it will be relevant here.

[CajunKhan]

Now that people have had time to play a campaign or two with the SI fleshed out, what do you think of this book now?

[Baaldam]

That was incredibly fast.

"Oh, we barely knew thee."

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Now that people have had time to play a campaign or two with the SI fleshed out, what do you think of this book now?

A thread bump for this - I’ve not played VtM since this book came out and want to know how it works in play.