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  • monteparnas
    replied
    I think Raziel's point is similar to mine on the matter of Metis in relation to disabled people.

    Had the game never had KOTE in the first place, just Camarilla, Anarchs and Sabbat, this wouldn't be a problem and any new description that downplayed the Noddism role in Asia to use local myths or secularize completely would be positive.

    From the moment the Ashirra exists, a sect that did an ok job at adapting the existing clans to a specific cultural context without as much White View as in other places, not giving the same treatment to other places is bad. And mind you, they did a similar treatment to Africa and South America, if not as thorough or well done, why not Asia?

    When KOTE is a thing, removing it leaves a completely different taste from never having it in the first place. You objectively had a setting element that used local myths and culture, no matter how skewed, instead of just applying "western concepts". Ignoring it like they're doing won't make the past go away, just leave a lot of people asking what you mean with it.

    Now that "Native Asian Vampires" are a thing, you either keep then a thing, put a more sensible thing in their place, or you can't escape a lot of people feeling you're just eliminating Asian presence from your game.

    And that has nothing to do with other sects having a presence in Asia, as we have this complaint being brought by an Asian who runs Camarilla in Asia. I totally agree that ditching the KOTE wasn't the best move nor necessary to have Vampire: the Masquerade be Vampire: the Masquerade in Asia.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Raziel View Post

    Woah, you jumped to a segregation conclusion?
    In the literal sense of "separating it from the rest of the game sects" and not in the direct parallel one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Raziel
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Like I said, I think the problem is the greatly unexpected one of segregation.

    Asian players in countries like Hong Kong and Japan and Tawain play Vampire: The Masquerade already and have their own vampire: The masquerade clubs.



    They don't want to be "kicked out" of their own home games and their own home games declared non-canon because they want to play the same setting as the rest of people.

    By making them other than Camarilla and Anarchs, it means that 90% of the supplements they have PROBABLY ALREADY BOUGHT are useless to them.

    To Asian players, they want to be part of the club. Not given their own separate club.

    Cool as said club may be.
    Woah, you jumped to a segregation conclusion?

    Although yes, I wish there are Eastern sects, that doesn't mean the Anarchs, Cam and Sabbat don't have a presence.

    Even KOTE mentioned the sects had some holdings as well.

    I'm even currently running a Camarilla game set in Bacolod city located in the Philippines.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Raziel View Post


    I have to admit if they just keep using the Camarilla and they didn't write an Eastern sect yet, it feels like some disturbing allegory of European colonization, where the Asian sects/bloodlines are almost non-existent besides the Nagaraja.

    But it makes sense for the Ashirra to be in Asia, especially to the more Muslim countries and in the Philippine region of Mindanao.

    I really wish Achilli could add something regarding Eastern kindred that has nothing to do with Noddism like new mythologies or bloodlines, but it seems V5 writers are still bent on using the Caine/Lilith myth which still disappoints me and the COTBG books still lack some myths despite what Outstar said in a stream.

    If they want to retcon the Wan Kuei so badly, how about they write something better instead of just ignoring it?
    Like I said, I think the problem is the greatly unexpected one of segregation.

    Asian players in countries like Hong Kong and Japan and Tawain play Vampire: The Masquerade already and have their own vampire: The masquerade clubs.



    They don't want to be "kicked out" of their own home games and their own home games declared non-canon because they want to play the same setting as the rest of people.

    By making them other than Camarilla and Anarchs, it means that 90% of the supplements they have PROBABLY ALREADY BOUGHT are useless to them.

    To Asian players, they want to be part of the club. Not given their own separate club.

    Cool as said club may be.

    Leave a comment:


  • Raziel
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Unfortunately, I feel like this is a barn door that has been open for some time because the new books repeatedly mention Asian sects, cities, and presence that are shown to be either Blood Cults, Camarilla, or Anarch locations.

    Starting with Tokyo being a Camarilla domain.

    SI is also clear the Camarilla is in control of Japan and it was viewed as a refuge against the SI.

    OPP has also shown many Asian-based Cainite groups.

    I have to admit if they just keep using the Camarilla and they didn't write an Eastern sect yet, it feels like some disturbing allegory of European colonization, where the Asian sects/bloodlines are almost non-existent besides the Nagaraja.

    But it makes sense for the Ashirra to be in Asia, especially to the more Muslim countries and in the Philippine region of Mindanao.

    I really wish Achilli could add something regarding Eastern kindred that has nothing to do with Noddism like new mythologies or bloodlines, but it seems V5 writers are still bent on using the Caine/Lilith myth which still disappoints me and the COTBG books still lack some myths despite what Outstar said in a stream.

    If they want to retcon the Wan Kuei so badly, how about they write something better instead of just ignoring it?

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Raziel View Post
    What's gonna replace the Wan Kuei then? A new sect or are they just lazily going to say it's just the Camarilla, Ashirra, or Anarchs?

    I think Spencer meant that the Wan Kuei are going to be a sect or a collection of bloodlines.

    Although some people want to remove the Wan Kuei badly, I expect their replacements to be better and not just them having "Caine and Lilith with a sinonized name"

    Because I admit the Eurocentricity of this game can be annoying and it's a bit disturbing to me as an Asian since they are just gonna remove it, instead of improving it.
    Unfortunately, I feel like this is a barn door that has been open for some time because the new books repeatedly mention Asian sects, cities, and presence that are shown to be either Blood Cults, Camarilla, or Anarch locations. Starting with Tokyo being a Camarilla domain.

    SI is also clear the Camarilla is in control of Japan and it was viewed as a refuge against the SI.

    OPP has also shown many Asian-based Cainite groups.

    Mind you, part of what was hated about the KOTE was the idea that it WASN'T related to the Camarilla and Anarchs. All the fans I've talked to in Hong Kong and Tawain have stated, "We're playing Vampire: The Masquerade to play Vampire: The Masquerade. We want Tremere, Brujah, Anarchs, and Ventrue. Otherwise, why would we pick up the game?"

    All of their White Wolf clubs just makes the local areas into Camarilla ones and use Cainite Clans. KOTE is considered a nonentity there as far as I can tell.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-26-2022, 12:20 AM.

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  • Raziel
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    The SI book tries to roll back the idea that the communists were under the control of vampires and state this is Polish propaganda.

    Which is ANOTHER statement that has aged like sour milk.



    Jason Carl, Matthew Dawkins, and Justin Achilli have all basically confirmed that the Wan Kuei are gone forever.

    Not even an in-universe explanation like Wrinkle (Mage 1st Edition Paradox spirit with Time 6) did it.

    What's gonna replace the Wan Kuei then? A new sect or are they just lazily going to say it's just the Camarilla, Ashirra, or Anarchs?

    I think Spencer meant that the Wan Kuei are going to be a sect or a collection of bloodlines.

    Although some people want to remove the Wan Kuei badly, I expect their replacements to be better and not just them having "Caine and Lilith with a sinonized name"

    Because I admit the Eurocentricity of this game can be annoying and it's a bit disturbing to me as an Asian since they are just gonna remove it, instead of improving it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Manfr
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    The SI book tries to roll back the idea that the communists were under the control of vampires and state this is Polish propaganda.

    Which is ANOTHER statement that has aged like sour
    It's a piece explicitly written in faux-postCommunist prose, from the point of view of the GRU, nowhere the Brujah Council is retconned (and if memory serves me well, their conflict with GRU hunters is explicitly mentioned in the Inquisition chapter of the Camarilla book).

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post

    I can relate. It’s different for me, because I only read bits and pieces of 90s VtM and keep missing sales for BJD. If one book introduces something I find interesting, I want see it in the next where it could relevant:[LIST][*]I vaguely knew of the Brujah Council from Revised and it’s featured in “Anarch” and “Night Road”. What’s its legacy in 21st century Russia (and the rest)?
    The SI book tries to roll back the idea that the communists were under the control of vampires and state this is Polish propaganda.

    Which is ANOTHER statement that has aged like sour milk.

    Having not read about hunters, I have next to no investment in the SI itself. I’d rather buy “Ashirra” or even “Wan Kuei”.
    Jason Carl, Matthew Dawkins, and Justin Achilli have all basically confirmed that the Wan Kuei are gone forever.

    Not even an in-universe explanation like Wrinkle (Mage 1st Edition Paradox spirit with Time 6) did it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Karos
    replied
    Swinging back to the SI topic, has anyone started using the content in the SI book?

    I'm planning a chronicle in London and I'm seriously looking at restructuring my plot around a well fleshed-out and nuanced SI team supported by the mechanics presented. A combination of a lethal Headhunter team covered by their political backers, with a few Arcanum hangers-on along for the ride.

    Leave a comment:


  • Manfr
    replied
    Originally posted by SetiteFriend View Post

    Out of all the V5 games I've played, that never was remotely true, and I don't see where you get that from reading the book.
    I really do agree, I've never felt any restraining by V5 in what I was going to run.

    So far, I've been the storyteller into:

    -A fighting-heavy Ancilla Gonzo game set in Krakow, with players fighting Vicissitude-infected Tzimisce and TBH methuselahs

    -A noir Neonate game set in Rome, with players involved into blackmailing an inflexible politician resisting their Sire

    -A Tzimisce Dark Ages game, which started with a battle royale against Tremere and Gargoyles on the top of a castle and ended with Azhi Dahaka in the Cathedral of Flesh

    -An Anarch heist into a Camarilla party, blewing up a deal between Elders and the Second Inquisition

    -A shovelhead Sabbat game in the Middle East, witnessing the awakening of Ur-Shulgi

    - A neonate / thin blood Anarch political thriller set in Venice, with the Camarilla and Hecata fighting for control over a toxic waste treatment plant

    -A Tremere dungeoncrawl in the Mormon archives, running away from Hunters and searching for Carna before she stole the Inner Circle's experiments.

    As well as two LARPs, one with the Hecata manipulating SI refugees from various Camarilla and Anarch groups, and a meeting of Inquisitors planning their next moves.


    Never in any of these wildy different games I've felt the rules not supporting the playstile.

    In fact, most of these games were not much intimistic (contrarily to the idea of brooding super-heroes doomed to fail and mourn over their touchstones), and a good half of them were combat-heavy.

    The random element of Hunger dices came up a couple of times per session during the combat-heavy moments or most tense moments, and it created interesting repercussions: when it didn't seem appropriate, we just moved the effect to the next scene, and solved the issue.

    V5 may have a very clear tone, and a ruleset that wants to emphasize certain things, but I've never felt rules not supporting one of the old playstiles (I mean, I had a literal trenchcoat-and-katanas campaing running).

    Leave a comment:


  • SetiteFriend
    replied
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
    Very much agree with the "They forbid other playstyles by making their ruleset really restrictive instead of modular" part. It really feels like you are only supposed to tell one story: people who try extremely hard to be superheroes, but who fail because of their cursed nature combined with The Man being too big to defeat. That's it. That's all. That one story again and again with, like, different haircuts and names being the only difference.
    Out of all the V5 games I've played, that never was remotely true, and I don't see where you get that from reading the book.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spencer from The Hills
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    This actually segues into the one big area I have a problem with 5th Edition, which is the fact they wanted to start with a clean slate and I am RIDICULOUSLY devoted to continuity.

    So the parts that jump out for me about the SI are the SAD, Arcanum, Inquisition, and other stuff from The Hunter's Hunted and Year of the Hunter. I'm much more forgiving of a supplement's oddities if it relies on past continuity.

    Is it weird I'm very saddened the Russian section of the book downplayed the Brujah Council and Baba Yaga? It's weird, isn't it?
    I can relate. It’s different for me, because I only read bits and pieces of 90s VtM and keep missing sales for BJD. If one book introduces something I find interesting, I want see it in the next where it could relevant:
    • I vaguely knew of the Brujah Council from Revised and it’s featured in “Anarch” and “Night Road”. What’s its legacy in 21st century Russia (and the rest)?
    • “Camarilla” says that Rio de Janeiro is a kind of Sabbat-Camarilla melting pot and other books describe the Sabbat’s presence in other parts of the country. As I recall, both sides have helped hunters against each other. How’s all that working out?
    • And I’m very eager to see if the developments of “Playing the Sabbat” are adopted in future books, particularly about the Sabbat, the Ashirra and the left over “V5 Companion” clans, which were apparently most prominent in the post-Diet of Oaxaca Sabbat, in spite of that book’s flaws, as I see them.


    Having not read about hunters, I have next to no investment in the SI itself. I’d rather buy “Ashirra” or even “Wan Kuei”.
    Last edited by Spencer from The Hills; 03-23-2022, 04:54 PM.

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  • CajunKhan
    replied
    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

    The problem is not humans, they where always an actual treat and the reason why the masquerade exist, V5 problem is the game design

    V5 wanted to tone down the setting towards street level but instead of making a cohesive set of rules:
    1. ​They forbid other playstyles by making their ruleset really restrictive instead of modular
    2. They made the game mechanics so random that everything seems inconsecuent.
    3. Things happen becuase "plot device" whitout a posible mechanical interpretation


    An example of this is the fact that between Horatio Ballard and Helena there are rolls where there is only a diference of 3 dice or similar despite Helena being a "Blood God" TM.
    Very much agree with the "They forbid other playstyles by making their ruleset really restrictive instead of modular" part. It really feels like you are only supposed to tell one story: people who try extremely hard to be superheroes, but who fail because of their cursed nature combined with The Man being too big to defeat. That's it. That's all. That one story again and again with, like, different haircuts and names being the only difference.

    I wouldn't say they made it without possible mechanical interpretation, but they did make it so that that mechanical explanation can't be applied consistently without changing the game into something where you spend the rest of time hiding in a camouflaged attic eating rats and never daring to set foot outside of the attic. So basically those mechanics need to exist only long enough to massively change the meta, then go away so people can actually play an entertaining game.

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  • Nicolas Milioni
    replied
    I absolutely love reading Animalist Cunning Folk

    Leave a comment:

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