No one expects the Second Inquisition!

[CTPhipps]

It's funny to me, because over the top moralizing has always been the barrier keeping me from taking Werewolf: the Apocalypse seriously. CEO's don't have to be Captain Planet villains out to destroy the Earth for the joy of it. The real conditions brought about by their real motivations are bad enough. They're only reframed as supernaturally empowered and morally fantablack in order to make the game's violent hillbilly protagonists sympathetic.

I think a player of mine summarized every single problem I have with Pentex in three sentences: "Pentex makes perfect sense in the World of Darkness. The only thing it doesn't need is to be working for the Wyrm. It would be doing the exact same thing by just being a bunch of executives who occasionally use black magic."

[Reasor]

In these modern times, the convoluted Wyrm mythology can actually work in Vampire, as a Lupine QAnon conspiracy theory cult that embarrasses the other Lupines.

"The Parent Teacher Association is eating babies, but our great leader, Lord Snagglethorp the Inbred, has a cunning plan to stop them! We attack tomorrow night."

[CajunKhan]

It's funny to me, because over the top moralizing has always been the barrier keeping me from taking Werewolf: the Apocalypse seriously. CEO's don't have to be Captain Planet villains out to destroy the Earth for the joy of it. The real conditions brought about by their real motivations are bad enough. They're only reframed as supernaturally empowered and morally fantablack in order to make the game's violent hillbilly protagonists sympathetic.

Pretty much. Werewolf culture is, by human standards, incredibly evil. So to make them protagonists, you almost have to push humans aside, make humans furniture in a story where werewolves are the world, and the story is about a world of werewolves fighting other monsters over the fate of the werewolf world. Humans don't really matter as more than a practical concern in such a story.

A story about werewolves in a world where humans matter would be closer to a blend of "Don't Look Up" and "The Howling". In such a story, the werewolves would be evil psychotics who threaten individual humans, but are mostly irrelevant on the global stage.

The real threat is what humans are doing to humans, and they aren't even really doing it on purpose. Like one character says in "Don't Look Up": "they aren't even smart enough to be as evil as you think they are"
. It's mostly very ordinary humans behaving in a very short-sighted way, and being arrogant about future problems because they desperately want to believe that the actions that are giving them short-term benefits won't hurt them down the line. They don't know all the facts, and depend on experts to give them the facts, so when supposed experts disagree, they jump to believing the expert who tells them what they want to hear. And what they want to hear is that the actions giving them short-term benefits are great down the line as well.

[CTPhipps]

In these modern times, the convoluted Wyrm mythology can actually work in Vampire, as a Lupine QAnon conspiracy theory cult that embarrasses the other Lupines.

"The Parent Teacher Association is eating babies, but our great leader, Lord Snagglethorp the Inbred, has a cunning plan to stop them! We attack tomorrow night."

To be fair, the problem isn't conspiracy.

We live in a war where 9/11 is an inside job is ridiculous racist nonsense but the justification for the Iraq War was faked.

The Seventh Generation was meant to parody the Satanic pedophile conspiracy BEFORE Qanon's but we also have Epstein as real.

The Technocracy is based on Steve Jackson's Illuminati which was meant to PARODY conspiracy theory.

So it's a fine line to walk.

[CTPhipps]

Pretty much. Werewolf culture is, by human standards, incredibly evil. So to make them protagonists, you almost have to push humans aside, make humans furniture in a story where werewolves are the world, and the story is about a world of werewolves fighting other monsters over the fate of the werewolf world. Humans don't really matter as more than a practical concern in such a story.

A story about werewolves in a world where humans matter would be closer to a blend of "Don't Look Up" and "The Howling". In such a story, the werewolves would be evil psychotics who threaten individual humans, but are mostly irrelevant on the global stage.

The real threat is what humans are doing to humans, and they aren't even really doing it on purpose. Like one character says in "Don't Look Up": "they aren't even smart enough to be as evil as you think they are"
. It's mostly very ordinary humans behaving in a very short-sighted way, and being arrogant about future problems because they desperately want to believe that the actions that are giving them short-term benefits won't hurt them down the line. They don't know all the facts, and depend on experts to give them the facts, so when supposed experts disagree, they jump to believing the expert who tells them what they want to hear. And what they want to hear is that the actions giving them short-term benefits are great down the line as well.

Ehhhhhhhhh.

*waves hand*

I think this is a bit much because part of what sold WOD is the fact that you are playing the bad guy and have permission to be an evil asshole. As much as the Sabbat need to have CONSISTENT motivations, I never bought they were anything but a theocratic death cult of terrorists.

Vampire ISIS so to speak.

Werewolves and the Sabbat have never been that different.

Which is part of the appeal.

You're a bunch of violent nutters. The trick is inserting the fact the Storyteller and players are AWARE of this and the werewolves are kind of doomed BECAUSE of it.

It's part of the fun knowing the Garou have brought the doom of everything on themselves through being stupid violent mofos.

Then again, I am strongly in favor of an evil fascist Technocracy and have run seven or nine Technocrat campaigns. I use LA FEMME NIKITA as a basis. "Yes, you work for the Union. Yes, you fight against terrorists and for global stability. If you fail, you will die. If you fail big, your family will die."

It's like Judge Dredd. A lot of fans miss the irony.

[Shakanaka]

8. The SI has a few captured Tzimisce monsters (implied to be a Vodzd and Tzimisce wights) that they have been known to leave in Elysiums and unleash like it was fucking Jurassic Park. They think the terror effect is worth any collateral damage. (Page 49)

wtf

What does the Technocracy think of this?

[CTPhipps]

wtf

What does the Technocracy think of this?

According to Technocracy Reloaded, they're too busy protecting the rain forest and cuddling puppies to deal with fascism anymore.

(I'm kidding, it's a great book)

[Ragged Robin]

2. I'm not sure why anyone would think the SI would be "good" guys: They're the antagonists in a game about being a vampire after all.
.

Good guys Is a strong word. I'd just like a little moral ambiguity and an acknowalguement that wiping the vampire race off the map is a net benefit to humanity. The game really could do with some self awareness that some crazed priest is probably a net positive if he manages to drag a vampire out its haven at 2pm.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Good guys Is a strong word. I'd just like a little moral ambiguity and an acknowalguement that wiping the vampire race off the map is a net benefit to humanity. The game really could do with some self awareness that some crazed priest is probably a net positive if he manages to drag a vampire out its haven at 2pm.

I agree, but with a qualifier; how marketable is that take? There are fans who are irritated at the mere existence of the SI, even when it is something which can easily be ignored and excluded from a home game. These fans would be more offended, and less likely to buy a product, which said that the SI had a good point.

[CTPhipps]

I agree, but with a qualifier; how marketable is that take? There are fans who are irritated at the mere existence of the SI, even when it is something which can easily be ignored and excluded from a home game. These fans would be more offended, and less likely to buy a product, which said that the SI had a good point.

I mean, you don't need to have it be said either. We know vampires are awful. It's just usually the only person who can beat a vampire is another vampire.

[Reasor]

So, what happened to Bob Schnoblin?

Is...is he OK?

[CTPhipps]

So, what happened to Bob Schnoblin?

Is...is he OK?

The lack of the Pyramid of Satanic Power is criminal.

[CTPhipps]

Here's a sample of the general dickishness of the SI:

FIRSTLIGHT’s operational head, Felicity
Price, supposedly escaped ratface control while
at the NSA. A staunch opponent of blankbody
recruitment in general, she has been forced to admit
that thin-bloods present a huge potential strategic
advantage as double agents. FIRSTLIGHT often
promises these vampires a cure for their condition
in return for their service, but at the end of their
usefulness Price prefers to trade them to the Swedes
or other interested second parties for experimentation
and study.

[Reasor]

I sold a thin-blood a stick I found under the Santa Monica Pier and sent him on a suicide mission to Washington DC, so I can't judge too harshly

[monteparnas]

I have some thoughts on the moral status of the Second Inquisition as presented in the books. You can take them or leave them.

Mostly agree, but I have some comments:

2 - There's a difference on not being the good guys, being undoubtedly the bad guys, and being wonky bad guys. Hunters in VtM are usually in a grey area when portrayed as NPCs, not good guys, but not so thoroughly in the wrong. There are exceptions, hence I not arguing point 1. This is not about the SI as it is in this book, just about why complaining about their picture as bad guys may be warranted.

5 - Agreed, but the problem here, again, is the context they're in. They're believable, but still a group that went too far down the hole. Which would be fine and dandy if they weren't like the fourth or fifth in a row. Most (not those) hunter groups and even the Camarilla in pre-V5 didn't went so far down the hole: they're bad, in some cases undoubtedly bad, but there is such a thing as going too far, if not in the sense that it doesn't happen, at least in the sense that it isn't seen as normal among them. They normalize killing for power, not so much killing for giggles.

6 - I'm not talking about Grimdark as a pejorative, I'm saying it isn't goof for VtM, and it isn't. Grimdark as a genre is a completely different beast from Gothic. And also less versatile, which is a big problem, you can tell a greater variety of stories when you're not stuck with every single organization being bound to be terrible and the world hopeless. VtM isn't a hopeless setting, even if some authors pushed in this direction from time to time.

Same goes for Punk, it has similarities with Grimdark, but it isn't. One important point of divergence is that Punk regards power structures as inherently corrupted, but individuals not so much (some sure, posers and all that stuff, we discussed this elsewhere already). Grimdark poses a version of the world where non-victimized good is exceedingly rare regardless. They're opposites in the philosophical question about good and evil being inherent to the human nature and how society and institutions change it.

I disagree philosophically that most people are good - in my experience most people are bad.

Just to point out, I didn't said people are good, I said they manage to be, not exactly the same thing. I think the whole notion of ascribing good and evil to human nature is a useless gross simplification that serves no other purpose than the personal moral satisfaction of the thinker, as it thoroughly ignores the contexts and nuances that actually govern human behavior and perception in the real world.

There are no good guys in the World of Darkness as a general thing and no good guys in Vampire the Masquerade more specifically. No one can rely on others or institutions to be anything other than venal and self-serving to a fault. If the PCs are looking for a force of good in the world, then they will have to shoulder that responsibility themselves.

More to the point here, the original depiction of the Children of Osiris in Hunters Hunted are good people. The original depiction of the Salubri are good people. The original depiction of Saulot is a good person. The original depiction of Golconda is an eminently good thing. And while all those things got to be questioned later, the game mostly avoided stating that they not being good things is an undeniable fact. Even Saulot who was questioned the most and frequently put as actually a very dubious character is pretty fine in the pre-Gehenna canonical scenario the PCs get to actually interact with him.

If you like or not all those things is irrelevant, they're a part of the game and have always been. And that's good, because one ST may have a game where there are genuinely good people out there to support (or oppose) the PCs, while others may have all those secretly be scum, without no one having to step aside from the canon of the setting or homebrew anything.

You can look at a Gothic setting and decide to make it Grimdark because it suits your tastes and worldview. In fact, if you're cynical enough you'll likely already perceive a Gothic setting as Grimdark. Doing the opposite is a lot more work and frustration for those who don't want to play it out as Grimdark. That is the problem with Grimdark in V:tM.

Good guys Is a strong word. I'd just like a little moral ambiguity and an acknowalguement that wiping the vampire race off the map is a net benefit to humanity. The game really could do with some self awareness that some crazed priest is probably a net positive if he manages to drag a vampire out its haven at 2pm.

I disagree. The game is right when it says that the ends does not justify the means even at this point.

Vampires as a race are a blight, and the world (of Darkness) would be better off without them, that's for sure. But not every vampire causes the same amount of harm and not every hunter causes less harm than the average vampire. The idea of a powerful group of hunters that becomes relevant enough to have a chance, but at the cost of becoming just as corrupt and corrupting as the Camarilla, if not worse, is especially interesting to show that the Vampire may not be the source of all evil in the end, even if they usually control such evil. In fact, the control they exert may sometimes lessen the evil, even if done for selfish purposes.

The whole point is to show that choice and action matter, but ignorance harms. The world is complex and nuanced and careless action with the best intentions is far more destructive than selfish actions thought through.

Or, put another way, erasing the vampires is a net positive in principle, but what would be the best strategy to achieve it? How to erase a parasitic species without causing more harm to the host than the infection itself?