No one expects the Second Inquisition!

[CTPhipps]

Because one of the biggest points in the book is that the SI is as bad as the vampires they fight. So there isn't a right option of who to support. Even if in the end you think ending all vampires is a net positive, you still have a huge shadow organization, now without a target, so it's likely that they'd refocus on the usually persecuted people.

The problem with their association with the BOES, is that aside from their persecution of minority religions, they already do their operations in predominantly black areas with disregard for the lives of its inhabitants. Those members of African religions would be helping the group that regularly murders innocents in their communities.

The book is actually pretty clear that the SI is going to turn on its non-Christian (and probably Christian) practitioners too so it's not an unfounded fear. Those working with the SI *WILL* be betrayed eventually. They've already turned on their Thin Blooded allies and ghouls multiple times with all promises of looking for a cure just a way to manipulate them. The SI knows other supernaturals exist and are just focusing on vampires first.

In a less fantasy and more RL bit, the book is already receiving criticism in Brazil for the fact that it is too critical of the BOES too and "leftist propaganda."

[SetiteFriend]

Because one of the biggest points in the book is that the SI is as bad as the vampires they fight. So there isn't a right option of who to support. Even if in the end you think ending all vampires is a net positive, you still have a huge shadow organization, now without a target, so it's likely that they'd refocus on the usually persecuted people.

The problem with their association with the BOES, is that aside from their persecution of minority religions, they already do their operations in predominantly black areas with disregard for the lives of its inhabitants. Those members of African religions would be helping the group that regularly murders innocents in their communities.

[CTPhipps]

On the Brazil stuff, first it has been confirmed by Outstar, Jason Carl and Renegade that they are looking into it. The general stuff is mostly fine, but the main problem is this:

Associating African Religions with the Second Inquisition

Over the course of the book, the SI is repeatedly shown to be ruthless, controlling, a shadow conspiracy that uses everything in its arsenal against Kindred. To this it employs the techniques used by real world police, like torture, cover-ups, disregard for innocent bystanders, in addition complete fanaticism, such as that organization that thinks even the herds of a vampire should be purged. The problem is with this:

The brief acknowledgement of the repression doesn't really save it. It puts a minority religion, often persecuted by police, at the same side as their persecutors, which is problematic two reasons:

A. It means that believers Candomblé and Umbanda are supporting those that harm them, even though that means that the BOES could easily turn the anti-vampire apparatus against them. They are essentially enabling the persecutory tactics used against them.
B. It makes no sense. Neo-Pentecostal denominations are way more influential with those circles, are actually fanatic and have tendencies to persecute others, especially African religions. So the book foregoes associating the SI with those that actually oppresses others, in favor of putting the abused minority instead.

Candomblé and Umbanda would fit much better in Hunter, as you are specifically playing the little guy there, not the big organizations who aren't better than the vampires themselves.

---

There are some other problematic points but this is the main one.
.

Oddly, this doesn't seem to be a mistake because the above fits entirely with the rest of the paragraphs you're quoting:

More Cunning Folk are found outside the Coalition than within it: practitioners of this branch of magic don’t tend to be team players. (The general exception: Scottish and Appalachian Cunning Folk often serve in their nation’s military.) They’re strongly individualistic, and in many cases the desire to rid the world of undead monsters is their only common ground with the Coalition. Fans of law and order, and religious orthodoxy, they are not.

When the Coalition does work with Cunning Folk, the relationship is often at arms’ length by mutual agreement. These practitioners work as consultants, assisting where needed but not slotting directly into a UTR team. There are exceptions, of course.

This seems to one of those cases where the fantasy is slamming up against the reality. Because being unwilling to work with the SI is tantamount to being willing to allow vampires to persecute minorities.

So which is worse:

1. The authoritarian Far Right humans
2. The vampires who pull the strings on authoriatrian Far Right regimes

?

[SetiteFriend]

On the Brazil stuff, first it has been confirmed by Outstar, Jason Carl and Renegade that they are looking into it. The general stuff is mostly fine, but the main problem is this:

Associating African Religions with the Second Inquisition

Over the course of the book, the SI is repeatedly shown to be ruthless, controlling, a shadow conspiracy that uses everything in its arsenal against Kindred. To this it employs the techniques used by real world police, like torture, cover-ups, disregard for innocent bystanders, in addition complete fanaticism, such as that organization that thinks even the herds of a vampire should be purged. The problem is with this:

Despite a rough history of Brazilian repression of their beliefs and practices, a mutual understanding has surfaced, where some Brazilian Candomblé and Umbanda practitioners bless weapons, work rituals, and protect their BOES colleagues, a force that has long been their own historic enemies; Second Inquisition, page 37

The brief acknowledgement of the repression doesn't really save it. It puts a minority religion, often persecuted by police, at the same side as their persecutors, which is problematic two reasons:

A. It means that believers Candomblé and Umbanda are supporting those that harm them, even though that means that the BOES could easily turn the anti-vampire apparatus against them. They are essentially enabling the persecutory tactics used against them.
B. It makes no sense. Neo-Pentecostal denominations are way more influential with those circles, are actually fanatic and have tendencies to persecute others, especially African religions. So the book foregoes associating the SI with those that actually oppresses others, in favor of putting the abused minority instead.

Candomblé and Umbanda would fit much better in Hunter, as you are specifically playing the little guy there, not the big organizations who aren't better than the vampires themselves.

---

There are some other problematic points but this is the main one.
.

[CTPhipps]

CTPhipps while the Sabbat prompted a very divisive debate, I'm actually interested in buying this book and as far as I saw I agree with your review. Also, that was a first for me seeing your actual photo!

My only problem is this price for now. It probably means to me something around R$ 200,00 to R$ 250,00, which is almost as expensive as it sounds, if I get a local release. If I buy it from the US I'll have to add shipping and taxes, which around here is kind of a gamble for import, so all together it can even double the price (the random import tax alone is a heft 60%, I'll have to pay exchange tax and deal with direct exchange instead of just the approximate rate import businesses get to use). So it will be something between R$ 250,00 and R$ 500,00.

I'll be interested in getting your opinion on Brazil since it plays a big role. I've already seen some complaints about its portrayal of them.

[Banu_Saulot]

I've made a brief overlook of my pdf, and yeah the "DOWNLOADE BY <YOUR NAME>" thing is pretty petty and intrusive, but the content on the book is solid.
I wish we got a bit more history on the First Inquisition like the slight history of Blood and Fire in Sabbat and the Anarch Revolt, but I guess metaplot revisionism and historical changes is not something WoD wants to do anymore (they are now giving more than ever the idea that the WoD is our world fictionalized, instead of being an alternate world in form of caricature, which I think was better, because this world shouldn't be our own, but a dramatic fantasy fiction inspired by our own world).

I really like the different hunter types mechanically giving your PCs hell by attacking their Background, Domain, studying them, etc.; and I love the Response Algorithm (and was wishing for a fleshed out version since Fall of London and the Anarch book). It gives an increasing level of threat for those that don't respect THE NAME OF THE GAME, The Masquerade. And it is 100% better than having no system at all and have the ST arbitrarily make the Inquisition more dangerous and present with no scale.

It has some small problems, especially the length (the price is absurd for the number of pages, it is no question) but what it gives for the ST to use is all very, very good.

[CTPhipps]

Probably my favorite bit from the book:

Page 136:

"This increasingly leads the Entity to consider
going public with the Second Inquisition as a last
ditch effort to pressure the world governments to
exterminate the vampires once and for all. Of course
the public option is a particularly dangerous gambit
from the Vatican’s standpoint because the only
thing they fear more than the collapse of the Second
Inquisition is if the world powers decide to come
to some kind of understanding or detente with the
vampires. The Entity understands the nature of
the vampire threat is one of spiritual evil, but they
fear that some partners within the Coalition seem
to think solutions other than extermination are
possible."

[CTPhipps]

CTPhipps while the Sabbat prompted a very divisive debate, I'm actually interested in buying this book and as far as I saw I agree with your review. Also, that was a first for me seeing your actual photo!

My only problem is this price for now. It probably means to me something around R$ 200,00 to R$ 250,00, which is almost as expensive as it sounds, if I get a local release. If I buy it from the US I'll have to add shipping and taxes, which around here is kind of a gamble for import, so all together it can even double the price (the random import tax alone is a heft 60%, I'll have to pay exchange tax and deal with direct exchange instead of just the approximate rate import businesses get to use). So it will be something between R$ 250,00 and R$ 500,00.

Yeah, it seems a good reason to get the PDF when it comes out or hope they get a local printer deal.

[monteparnas]

CTPhipps while the Sabbat prompted a very divisive debate, I'm actually interested in buying this book and as far as I saw I agree with your review. Also, that was a first for me seeing your actual photo!

My only problem is this price for now. It probably means to me something around R$ 200,00 to R$ 250,00, which is almost as expensive as it sounds, if I get a local release. If I buy it from the US I'll have to add shipping and taxes, which around here is kind of a gamble for import, so all together it can even double the price (the random import tax alone is a heft 60%, I'll have to pay exchange tax and deal with direct exchange instead of just the approximate rate import businesses get to use). So it will be something between R$ 250,00 and R$ 500,00.

[CTPhipps]

CT Phipps' Book Review of THE SECOND INQUISITION

https://booknest.eu/reviews/charles/2380-thesecondinquisition

4/5

THE SECOND INQUISITION is the latest official product for VAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE FIFTH EDITION. As the title implies, it is a book detailing the in's and out's of the hunter organization that has defined the entirety of the latest incarnation of White Wolf's classic Gothic Punk RPG. This is a make or break product for the company and whether they can pull it off will determine the future of the line.

Reception has been mixed for the 5E's "main books" with the main book, THE ANARCH, THE CAMARILLA, and THE SABBAT. Things like the Cleavers, Chechnya controversy, lack of playable Sabbat, lack of stats, and other matters caused some traditional fans to be turned away. The Second Inquisition benefits from the fact it is an entirely new creation of Fifth Edition versus something that was being adapted for modern audiences.

The Second Inquisition has been somewhat badly described before and just how powerful, widespread, influential, or effective the organization was has varied tremendously across supplements. In the main book, it seemed an ever-present danger that was potentially capable of destroying all vampires everywhere. The Second Inquisition successfully eliminated all the vampires in London in THE FALL OF LONDON. Except in follow-up material like COTERIES OF NEW YORK and NEW YORK BY NIGHT, the Second Inquisition behaves like Keystone cops that are easily killed off by our heroes breaking necks. Other books split the difference with CHICAGO BY NIGHT having the Kindred functionally more or less as before but the Second Inquisition having a secret prison and laboratory right out of town. Who is the "real" Second Inquisition?

So, after that lengthy opening, what does this book present the SI as? Honestly, I'm pleased to say they did an excellent job establishing the bona-fides of the organization as well as how powerful it is in comparison to the rest of the world's supernatural factions. Part of the problem of the Second Inquisition is if it's too powerful then the social glamorous aspects of V:TM no longer work and if it's too weak then what's the point of it?

This book does a decent job of establishing the Second Inquisition is a loose alliance of numerous hunting organizations only loosely aligned against Kindred society. Furthermore, the organization actually is less interested in doing direct assaults on vampires than playing Kindred against one another. The SI is less likely to have SWAT break down your door and more likely to kidnap your ghoul before leaving evidence it was your long-time enemy who did it. Which I think is brilliant and does a good job of making the SI much more useful. V:TM is primarily a social and intrigue game so having the SI be "players" rather than kicking over the gameboard dramatically increases their versatility.

Indeed, the book emphasizes the fracturedness of the organization with some being okay with Thin Bloods, some being okay with ghouls, some wanting to kill all vampire associates everywhere, and others wanting to use undead. The Papal Inquisition doesn't get along with the secular hunters, the Russian hunters don't get along with the American hunters, and the Inquisitors would happily burn the magic-using hunters from the Arcanum. That's not even addressing the undead members of the Second Inquisition who include people promised a cure for undeath and those just happy to sell out their own kind for protection.

The book also makes it clear the Second Inquisition is a particularly scummy authoritarian organization that has almost no regard for collateral damage. It funds itself by dealing drugs, weapons, real estate scams, and feathering its nest with stolen Kindred assets. The group engages in torture of not just vampires but vampire victims and complete innocents despite how, in-universe, it is acknowledged this is pointless. Plus, it engages in large amounts of human experimentation in hopes of unlocking the secrets of undeath. It's very Technocracy-lite and I mean the First Edition union before all the apologists but not to the point of being unbelievable. The only thing a RL anti-terrorist organization hasn't done is release captured Tzimisce monsters on Elysium, which felt like something the Sabbat would do.

The book contains sample hunters, equipment, descriptions of the various groups, and plenty of actual information-information on how the group works. We don't have the excessive amounts of in-character text that dominated The Camarilla and The Anarch. There's also none of the lecturing about the Sabbat being unsuitable for player characters that was in The Sabbat. It's easily the best of the releases so far and I would say the book has significant utility to "classic" V:TM fans who want to incorporate the Second Inquisition even if all the stats are for 5E.

I probably would have given this book a 4.5 out of 5 as I liked it more than The Sabbat by a significant degree but I have to take off half a point for the fact the PDF copies have been disfigured by an ugly set of lettering at the bottom of each page that said, "Downloaded by CT Phipps on 3/16/2022. Unauthorized distribution prohibited." Which covers art and is an insult to the buyer on every page. Renegade Studios should remove this immediately as it implies they think all of their customers are thieves and pirates. Also, 166 pages is ridiculous for a forty dollar book when it should be at least 200 pages and that's being generous when it should be closer to 250 or 300.

[monteparnas]

And even with the Week of Nightmares, many of those deaths were the result of Technocratic Space Lasers™ so you could attribute many of those deaths of other humans.

Actually there's an interesting point in the original WoN text where the Union's leadership is discussing the outcome and all the calculations that went in their decisions. The guy that was in command of the operation is specifically very sympathetic and worried about collateral damage.

It reveals that while they did use nukes that killed thousands of people, he only commanded the strike when he really thought it would be the least of two evils and is now comparing the deaths by different causes during the whole debacle, half appalled half relieved that the nukes killed about 60k+ people, which is a lot, but far less than the whole event (which killed about 20 times that). From choosing moment to place of the detonation, he did what he could to minimize innocent deaths.

This is the kind of calculation that separates dirtying your hands to do good against an existential threat from just indulging your hatred and personal desires with a bland justification, which end up causing more harm around you.

[CTPhipps]

I like this bit as well for a British vampire hunting section of the group:

"To SO13’s headhunters blankbodies are an
undifferentiated and monstrous mass that corrupts
humans by proximity. If they had their way the
Coalition would expand its mandate to capture or
kill ghouled blood slaves, so called thin-bloods, and
even members of a vampire’s herd. Their adoption
of decapitation as a terror tactic, coupled with their
ubiquitous use of face masks, has made it difficult
for the leadership of the Coalition to sign off on
expanding SO13’s methods into the rest of Europe."

[AnubisXy]

Just some general thoughts:
I think the Second Inquisition is supposed to be the "Sabbat" of vampire hunters. They're horrible monsters, the worst of the worst. There are other hunter groups (Hunter the Reckoning) that are more player friendly. You're also going to have groups like The Arcanum and others who are maybe not as bad as the Second Inquisition but are still kinda bad. Ultimately the Second Inquisition are supposed to play the antagonist/foil role in both games where the PCs are Vampires and in games where the PCs are other Hunters.

When I look at the Second Inquisition I'm reminded of Werewolf: the Apocalypse. Werewolves hunt supernatural parasitic monsters that disguise themselves as humans and hide within the shadows of everyday life. And when werewolves go to kill these things, sometimes innocents get caught in the crossfire. But werewolves, generally, try to limit human casualties. Even with fairly anti-human factions like the Red Talons, burning down an apartment complex filled with women and children in order to kill a powerful fomori or bane isn't something they'd do, or at least they'd try and hide the fact. Ultimately werewolves have lines in the sand and those who start crossing them by slaughtering innocents will end up facing sanctions and losing renown and respect.

That isn't the case with the Second Inquisition and they engage in behavior that makes that comparable in monstrousness of the monsters they kill. They will likely end up with far more civilian deaths and the deaths of bystanders than other groups who hunt and kill vampires. Still, there is room for philosophical and ethical debate.

Vampires are parasitic monsters, so removing vampires from existence would probably be a net positive to the world. But, the tactics the Second Inquisition involve a lot of collateral deaths. A vampire might kill one person every few years, so 30 over the course of a century. If you kill 100 people when you burn down a building to kill the vampire hiding inside, you may have ended up killing more people than the vampire would have during the course of its existence. Of course, then you have exceptions - when Zapathasura awakened, millions or even tens of millions of people died as a result (possibly more when you include people in other locations killed by frenzying Ravnos, chimerical apparitions that had become real, etc). Unless the Second Inquisition sets off some tactical nukes in major cities it's unlikely the innocent people they kill in their vampire hunts will compare to that.

Still, most humans in the World of Darkness are killed by other humans (murders, car wrecks, wars, genocide, etc). Baring the Week of Nightmares, the number of people killed in the World of Darkness by vampires is probably closer to that of a statistical blip than anything else. And even with the Week of Nightmares, many of those deaths were the result of Technocratic Space Lasers™ so you could attribute many of those deaths of other humans. Now from a purely mathematical point of view, you'll eventually arrive at a specific number where the amount of people killed by vampires continuing to exist outweighs the number of people killed by the Second Inquisition in their course to eradicate vampires. But then there's the question, is it really worth killing that many innocent people in order to end something that's basically a statistical blip? The Second Inquisition would likely save more lives by spending their time/money trying to end poverty and world hunger than by killing vampires (and lots of humans along the way).

[monteparnas]

I have some thoughts on the moral status of the Second Inquisition as presented in the books. You can take them or leave them.

Mostly agree, but I have some comments:

2 - There's a difference on not being the good guys, being undoubtedly the bad guys, and being wonky bad guys. Hunters in VtM are usually in a grey area when portrayed as NPCs, not good guys, but not so thoroughly in the wrong. There are exceptions, hence I not arguing point 1. This is not about the SI as it is in this book, just about why complaining about their picture as bad guys may be warranted.

5 - Agreed, but the problem here, again, is the context they're in. They're believable, but still a group that went too far down the hole. Which would be fine and dandy if they weren't like the fourth or fifth in a row. Most (not those) hunter groups and even the Camarilla in pre-V5 didn't went so far down the hole: they're bad, in some cases undoubtedly bad, but there is such a thing as going too far, if not in the sense that it doesn't happen, at least in the sense that it isn't seen as normal among them. They normalize killing for power, not so much killing for giggles.

6 - I'm not talking about Grimdark as a pejorative, I'm saying it isn't goof for VtM, and it isn't. Grimdark as a genre is a completely different beast from Gothic. And also less versatile, which is a big problem, you can tell a greater variety of stories when you're not stuck with every single organization being bound to be terrible and the world hopeless. VtM isn't a hopeless setting, even if some authors pushed in this direction from time to time.

Same goes for Punk, it has similarities with Grimdark, but it isn't. One important point of divergence is that Punk regards power structures as inherently corrupted, but individuals not so much (some sure, posers and all that stuff, we discussed this elsewhere already). Grimdark poses a version of the world where non-victimized good is exceedingly rare regardless. They're opposites in the philosophical question about good and evil being inherent to the human nature and how society and institutions change it.

I disagree philosophically that most people are good - in my experience most people are bad.

Just to point out, I didn't said people are good, I said they manage to be, not exactly the same thing. I think the whole notion of ascribing good and evil to human nature is a useless gross simplification that serves no other purpose than the personal moral satisfaction of the thinker, as it thoroughly ignores the contexts and nuances that actually govern human behavior and perception in the real world.

There are no good guys in the World of Darkness as a general thing and no good guys in Vampire the Masquerade more specifically. No one can rely on others or institutions to be anything other than venal and self-serving to a fault. If the PCs are looking for a force of good in the world, then they will have to shoulder that responsibility themselves.

More to the point here, the original depiction of the Children of Osiris in Hunters Hunted are good people. The original depiction of the Salubri are good people. The original depiction of Saulot is a good person. The original depiction of Golconda is an eminently good thing. And while all those things got to be questioned later, the game mostly avoided stating that they not being good things is an undeniable fact. Even Saulot who was questioned the most and frequently put as actually a very dubious character is pretty fine in the pre-Gehenna canonical scenario the PCs get to actually interact with him.

If you like or not all those things is irrelevant, they're a part of the game and have always been. And that's good, because one ST may have a game where there are genuinely good people out there to support (or oppose) the PCs, while others may have all those secretly be scum, without no one having to step aside from the canon of the setting or homebrew anything.

You can look at a Gothic setting and decide to make it Grimdark because it suits your tastes and worldview. In fact, if you're cynical enough you'll likely already perceive a Gothic setting as Grimdark. Doing the opposite is a lot more work and frustration for those who don't want to play it out as Grimdark. That is the problem with Grimdark in V:tM.

Good guys Is a strong word. I'd just like a little moral ambiguity and an acknowalguement that wiping the vampire race off the map is a net benefit to humanity. The game really could do with some self awareness that some crazed priest is probably a net positive if he manages to drag a vampire out its haven at 2pm.

I disagree. The game is right when it says that the ends does not justify the means even at this point.

Vampires as a race are a blight, and the world (of Darkness) would be better off without them, that's for sure. But not every vampire causes the same amount of harm and not every hunter causes less harm than the average vampire. The idea of a powerful group of hunters that becomes relevant enough to have a chance, but at the cost of becoming just as corrupt and corrupting as the Camarilla, if not worse, is especially interesting to show that the Vampire may not be the source of all evil in the end, even if they usually control such evil. In fact, the control they exert may sometimes lessen the evil, even if done for selfish purposes.

The whole point is to show that choice and action matter, but ignorance harms. The world is complex and nuanced and careless action with the best intentions is far more destructive than selfish actions thought through.

Or, put another way, erasing the vampires is a net positive in principle, but what would be the best strategy to achieve it? How to erase a parasitic species without causing more harm to the host than the infection itself?

[Reasor]

I sold a thin-blood a stick I found under the Santa Monica Pier and sent him on a suicide mission to Washington DC, so I can't judge too harshly