No one expects the Second Inquisition!

[CTPhipps]

Here's a sample of the general dickishness of the SI:

FIRSTLIGHT’s operational head, Felicity
Price, supposedly escaped ratface control while
at the NSA. A staunch opponent of blankbody
recruitment in general, she has been forced to admit
that thin-bloods present a huge potential strategic
advantage as double agents. FIRSTLIGHT often
promises these vampires a cure for their condition
in return for their service, but at the end of their
usefulness Price prefers to trade them to the Swedes
or other interested second parties for experimentation
and study.

[CTPhipps]

So, what happened to Bob Schnoblin?

Is...is he OK?

The lack of the Pyramid of Satanic Power is criminal.

[Reasor]

So, what happened to Bob Schnoblin?

Is...is he OK?

[CTPhipps]

I agree, but with a qualifier; how marketable is that take? There are fans who are irritated at the mere existence of the SI, even when it is something which can easily be ignored and excluded from a home game. These fans would be more offended, and less likely to buy a product, which said that the SI had a good point.

I mean, you don't need to have it be said either. We know vampires are awful. It's just usually the only person who can beat a vampire is another vampire.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Good guys Is a strong word. I'd just like a little moral ambiguity and an acknowalguement that wiping the vampire race off the map is a net benefit to humanity. The game really could do with some self awareness that some crazed priest is probably a net positive if he manages to drag a vampire out its haven at 2pm.

I agree, but with a qualifier; how marketable is that take? There are fans who are irritated at the mere existence of the SI, even when it is something which can easily be ignored and excluded from a home game. These fans would be more offended, and less likely to buy a product, which said that the SI had a good point.

[Ragged Robin]

2. I'm not sure why anyone would think the SI would be "good" guys: They're the antagonists in a game about being a vampire after all.
.

Good guys Is a strong word. I'd just like a little moral ambiguity and an acknowalguement that wiping the vampire race off the map is a net benefit to humanity. The game really could do with some self awareness that some crazed priest is probably a net positive if he manages to drag a vampire out its haven at 2pm.

[CTPhipps]

wtf

What does the Technocracy think of this?

According to Technocracy Reloaded, they're too busy protecting the rain forest and cuddling puppies to deal with fascism anymore.

(I'm kidding, it's a great book)

[Shakanaka]

8. The SI has a few captured Tzimisce monsters (implied to be a Vodzd and Tzimisce wights) that they have been known to leave in Elysiums and unleash like it was fucking Jurassic Park. They think the terror effect is worth any collateral damage. (Page 49)

wtf

What does the Technocracy think of this?

[CTPhipps]

Pretty much. Werewolf culture is, by human standards, incredibly evil. So to make them protagonists, you almost have to push humans aside, make humans furniture in a story where werewolves are the world, and the story is about a world of werewolves fighting other monsters over the fate of the werewolf world. Humans don't really matter as more than a practical concern in such a story.

A story about werewolves in a world where humans matter would be closer to a blend of "Don't Look Up" and "The Howling". In such a story, the werewolves would be evil psychotics who threaten individual humans, but are mostly irrelevant on the global stage.

The real threat is what humans are doing to humans, and they aren't even really doing it on purpose. Like one character says in "Don't Look Up": "they aren't even smart enough to be as evil as you think they are"
. It's mostly very ordinary humans behaving in a very short-sighted way, and being arrogant about future problems because they desperately want to believe that the actions that are giving them short-term benefits won't hurt them down the line. They don't know all the facts, and depend on experts to give them the facts, so when supposed experts disagree, they jump to believing the expert who tells them what they want to hear. And what they want to hear is that the actions giving them short-term benefits are great down the line as well.

Ehhhhhhhhh.

*waves hand*

I think this is a bit much because part of what sold WOD is the fact that you are playing the bad guy and have permission to be an evil asshole. As much as the Sabbat need to have CONSISTENT motivations, I never bought they were anything but a theocratic death cult of terrorists.

Vampire ISIS so to speak.

Werewolves and the Sabbat have never been that different.

Which is part of the appeal.

You're a bunch of violent nutters. The trick is inserting the fact the Storyteller and players are AWARE of this and the werewolves are kind of doomed BECAUSE of it.

It's part of the fun knowing the Garou have brought the doom of everything on themselves through being stupid violent mofos.

Then again, I am strongly in favor of an evil fascist Technocracy and have run seven or nine Technocrat campaigns. I use LA FEMME NIKITA as a basis. "Yes, you work for the Union. Yes, you fight against terrorists and for global stability. If you fail, you will die. If you fail big, your family will die."

It's like Judge Dredd. A lot of fans miss the irony.

[CTPhipps]

In these modern times, the convoluted Wyrm mythology can actually work in Vampire, as a Lupine QAnon conspiracy theory cult that embarrasses the other Lupines.

"The Parent Teacher Association is eating babies, but our great leader, Lord Snagglethorp the Inbred, has a cunning plan to stop them! We attack tomorrow night."

To be fair, the problem isn't conspiracy.

We live in a war where 9/11 is an inside job is ridiculous racist nonsense but the justification for the Iraq War was faked.

The Seventh Generation was meant to parody the Satanic pedophile conspiracy BEFORE Qanon's but we also have Epstein as real.

The Technocracy is based on Steve Jackson's Illuminati which was meant to PARODY conspiracy theory.

So it's a fine line to walk.

[CajunKhan]

It's funny to me, because over the top moralizing has always been the barrier keeping me from taking Werewolf: the Apocalypse seriously. CEO's don't have to be Captain Planet villains out to destroy the Earth for the joy of it. The real conditions brought about by their real motivations are bad enough. They're only reframed as supernaturally empowered and morally fantablack in order to make the game's violent hillbilly protagonists sympathetic.

Pretty much. Werewolf culture is, by human standards, incredibly evil. So to make them protagonists, you almost have to push humans aside, make humans furniture in a story where werewolves are the world, and the story is about a world of werewolves fighting other monsters over the fate of the werewolf world. Humans don't really matter as more than a practical concern in such a story.

A story about werewolves in a world where humans matter would be closer to a blend of "Don't Look Up" and "The Howling". In such a story, the werewolves would be evil psychotics who threaten individual humans, but are mostly irrelevant on the global stage.

The real threat is what humans are doing to humans, and they aren't even really doing it on purpose. Like one character says in "Don't Look Up": "they aren't even smart enough to be as evil as you think they are"
. It's mostly very ordinary humans behaving in a very short-sighted way, and being arrogant about future problems because they desperately want to believe that the actions that are giving them short-term benefits won't hurt them down the line. They don't know all the facts, and depend on experts to give them the facts, so when supposed experts disagree, they jump to believing the expert who tells them what they want to hear. And what they want to hear is that the actions giving them short-term benefits are great down the line as well.

[Reasor]

In these modern times, the convoluted Wyrm mythology can actually work in Vampire, as a Lupine QAnon conspiracy theory cult that embarrasses the other Lupines.

"The Parent Teacher Association is eating babies, but our great leader, Lord Snagglethorp the Inbred, has a cunning plan to stop them! We attack tomorrow night."

[CTPhipps]

It's funny to me, because over the top moralizing has always been the barrier keeping me from taking Werewolf: the Apocalypse seriously. CEO's don't have to be Captain Planet villains out to destroy the Earth for the joy of it. The real conditions brought about by their real motivations are bad enough. They're only reframed as supernaturally empowered and morally fantablack in order to make the game's violent hillbilly protagonists sympathetic.

I think a player of mine summarized every single problem I have with Pentex in three sentences: "Pentex makes perfect sense in the World of Darkness. The only thing it doesn't need is to be working for the Wyrm. It would be doing the exact same thing by just being a bunch of executives who occasionally use black magic."

[Reasor]

It's funny to me, because over the top moralizing has always been the barrier keeping me from taking Werewolf: the Apocalypse seriously. CEO's don't have to be Captain Planet villains out to destroy the Earth for the joy of it. The real conditions brought about by their real motivations are bad enough. They're only reframed as supernaturally empowered and morally fantablack in order to make the game's violent hillbilly protagonists sympathetic.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

I unironically state that I think this is the absolute best idea they could have had for the Second Inquisition and increases their utility in Vampire: The Masquerade by about 300%. (snip rest of post).

I agree with this posting. VtM is a game of sneaking about, intrigue, murder, and being horrible to other people. It is not, first and foremost, a combat game. That said, you can run your games however you choose. But having the coterie sitting around, sipping blood from tea cups and being catty only for the SI to kick in the door and try to throw down with them - it felt off for a lot of reasons.

Having the SI being sneak, cruel, and manipulative betters fits the way VtM should work.

(most people manage to be good just fine, but don't face severe pressure to not be).

I disagree philosophically that most people are good - in my experience most people are bad. But that aside, in the World of Darkness the situation is more dire. It is an uglier, meaner place than our world. There is more pressure on everyone to be evil just to survive, to say nothing of succeeding. And it all becomes a feedback loop, with everyone and everything gradually making everything and everyone crueler and harder.

There aren't good guys though?

There are no good guys in the World of Darkness as a general thing and no good guys in Vampire the Masquerade more specifically. No one can rely on others or institutions to be anything other than venal and self-serving to a fault. If the PCs are looking for a force of good in the world, then they will have to shoulder that responsibility themselves.