There's no way Clan Nosferatu is as united as everyone says it is

[Hello]

I say this because if you read a bit about the nosferatu, you would learn that they tend to embrace others out of spite. This includes "Cleopatras" and a witch hunter like Nathaniel Bordruff.

The "Cleopatras" as the nosferatu like to call them, were attractive mortals who the nosferatu embraced. While a lot of them have been said to be mean people, many weren't that bad, as stated in the wiki. Even if they were jerks, nobody, no matter how mean, deserves a fate like this. This shows that many nosferatu are vain, and honestly not that dissimilar to the Toreador and their vain tendencies.

Nathaniel Bordruff is a nosferatu who was a former vampire hunter, wants to break the masquerade because he hates vampires! Like I understand when the Tremere embraced Karl Shrekt, because they are usually very responsible sires, who only choose the best of the best when they know they can control them. The nosferatu threw Nathaniel in front of his former comrades and forced him to kill them. Okay, its more like the he went into frenzy and killed them, but the nosferatu knew that would happen, which makes them responsible. If you read about him on the wiki, you would see why it was such a huge mistake for the nosferatu to do this.

Like, we should be seeing hundreds of nosferatu trying to kill their sires because they turned them into disgusting monsters. I am genuinely surprised that the nosferatu weren't one of the pillars within the Anarch Revolt. If I was turned into a nosferatu, my sire is definitely going to meet final death.

And sure, the lore says that one of the reasons the nosferatu stick together is they fear their ante. But honestly, are the younger nosferatu going to believe this? For all they know, their elders have gone insane living in the sewers and isolated from humanity for so long that they've lost touch with reality. Many may even believe that their elders created a fictional enemy to keep control of their childers, and to keep them from rebelling.

Another reason given for sticking together is that they are all disgusting to look at, but lets be honest even ugly people can hate other ugly people.

What about the nosferatu who were "gifted" the embrace because it was believed that their mortal life was trash, and turning them into a hideous, grotesque, sewer monster was a large upgrade? I doubt even those who have led a hard life will see it as a gift.

[CajunKhan]

I imagine a lot of young Nos DO have the ugly reactions you describe. And then they die.

It's a bit like saying, "wouldn't the Gangrel's embrace method result in massive casualties? No way do they have numbers comparable to more nuturing clans!" Yeah, lots of young Gangrel die. Their sires just shrug and embrace a new progeny.

No doubt plenty of young Nos immediately attack their sires. And then they die, and the Nos shrugs and embraces someone else. No doubt plenty of young Nos immediately watch the sunrise. And then they die, and the elder shrugs and embraces a new progeny.

Nos culture is the product of those Nos who don't self-destruct.

[Gangrel44]

Let's not even get started on the Nosferatu Antitribu...

[Shakanaka]

The Nosferatu rock.

[Reasor]

The romantic in me likes the idea that the Nosferatu exist in this marginalized subculture with their own little communities - there's a clear and straightforward connection between their dependence on one another and their reputation as the most "humane" vampires in some ways.

All of this could be just their public face, though, if that suits your chronicle. Clan stereotypes are't meant to be straightjackets. It would be entirely legit if a city's Nosferatu make shows of clan solidarity in order to project an image of strength in numbers against the other clans, hiding the fault lines created by their own internal bitching and backstabbing.

[Hades]

Being hated and persecuted as a group tends to create in group solidarity.

[CTPhipps]

I think what you're describing is correct but comes with a number of caveats:

+ Nosferatu are united and friendly compared to other Kindred.

* Cleopatras absolutely do hate their sires. However, they're not going to hate their CLANS because the Nosferatu are literally the only people they have left in the world. If they don't eventually
shape up, they will end up dead.

+ Most vampires hate their sires after the first few times they frenzy and eat someone unless they're a psychopath.

+ Nathaniel actually gets along with his childer fantastically because he Blood Bonds them all.

[Black Fox]

The OP brings up many salient points. Unity depends very much on how much the other clans actually do persecute the Nosferatu. We actually don't see much persecution per se. Both the mainline clan and the anti-tribu are well accepted in their sects. They aren't treated as bad as the Independent Clans or Caitiffs. They have a Justicar in the Camarilla, prominent archons, prominent Primogen, and aren't unknown to be Princes and other city offices. (Now that I think about, the Nosferatu are much more likely to hold leadership positions in the Camarilla than their counterparts in the Sabbat.) However, they can expect a certain amount of insults and social ostracism based on their appearance, and most of the Nosferatu aren't going to do that to their own clan. I think the clan's proverbial unity is likely a long term phenomena with fledglings and neonates being much more angry and resentful until they accept things.

One comment I want to make is about the idea that the Nosferatu live in sewers. Some obviously do, and the idea of secret underground Nosferatu warrens with breeding pits of ghoul animals is an intriguing and cool idea so obviously lots of STs and Players play that up.. And its likely that until a Nosferatu fledgling learns enough Obfuscate that they can won't violate the Masquerade, they probably need to be hidden somewhere. But I think it does the Nosferatu a disservice if the entire clan is hiding in the sewer system. After all, modern sewer systems are less than 200 years old. What did they do before that? Not all pre-modern cities had catacombs.

This also goes back to an earlier thread on how repulsive the Nosferatu should be. Their inspiration - Count Orlok played by Max Schrek and Klaus Kinski (although Kinski's character is actually called Dracula) - are certainly distinctive and grotesque, but they aren't as vile or repulsive as some VtM characters make the clan out to be. There's a big difference between looking like Max Schreck's Orlok than a truly disgusting creature.

[CTPhipps]

This also goes back to an earlier thread on how repulsive the Nosferatu should be. Their inspiration - Count Orlok played by Max Schrek and Klaus Kinski (although Kinski's character is actually called Dracula) - are certainly distinctive and grotesque, but they aren't as vile or repulsive as some VtM characters make the clan out to be. There's a big difference between looking like Max Schreck's Orlok than a truly disgusting creature.

A few points:

1. I believe the general point is that Nosferatu are objectively easily identifiable as nonhuman in previous editions and that by itself is a big fucking issue.

2. Before modern sewers, the Nosferatu lived in caves, ruins, and graveyards and other abandoned places. They had Aninalism to live on blood that would starve normal vampires.

3. And the reason the Nosferatu have so much power in the Camarilla is due to the fact....they're the most unified clan.

4. Nosferatu probably look worse than they could because, well, if you look like a ratman then you probably don't mind smelling terrible and wearing rags.

[MyWifeIsScary]

1: you're ugly, but you're also immortal. Better 100 years as a Nos than 100 Years as a human. It's not like the other clans would've embraced you if a nosferatu hadn't, being embraced is an incredibly rare opportunity
2: abusive families can be pretty tight knit. That's also how cults work.
3: sires get a pretty big opportunity to filter out and brainwash their progeny, and Cleopatras usually get some love after getting humbled: Embracing someone who's going to be that resentful and not giving them what they need is a recipee for disaster. If you really just want to be cruel to a pretty person, you're stupid: Embracing willy-nilly is politically stupid.

[Hello]

So what I have learned is that the nosferatu are kind of like the tremere, except they're ugly and have a different discipline spread.

[AnubisXy]

So what I have learned is that the nosferatu are kind of like the tremere, except they're ugly and have a different discipline spread.

I honestly don't know who would feel more insulted by that comparison. The Tremere or the Nosferatu.

[CajunKhan]

The key difference between the Nos and Tremere is, individual Tremere are strongly motivated to horde knowledge, and Nosferatu are not. A Tremere who discovers a new ritual doesn't spread it around, instead using it to increase his/her personal power and wealth.

Nosferatu, on the other hand, engage in constant information-socialism within their own clan. They spread information freely, because they know that while being free with information may cost them in the short term, it benefits them long-term. A Nosferatu in New Orleans spreading information to Baton Rouge Nos may not benefit when a Baton Rouge Toreador buys information about New Orleans, but it will benefit later when a New Orleans Ventrue buys information about Baton Rouge.

So I would say that the Nosferatu should be insulted by being compared to the Tremere. The Tremere are much too short-sighted to make information-socialism work for them the way it works for the Nosferatu.

[Hello]

The key difference between the Nos and Tremere is, individual Tremere are strongly motivated to horde knowledge, and Nosferatu are not. A Tremere who discovers a new ritual doesn't spread it around, instead using it to increase his/her personal power and wealth.

Nosferatu, on the other hand, engage in constant information-socialism within their own clan. They spread information freely, because they know that while being free with information may cost them in the short term, it benefits them long-term. A Nosferatu in New Orleans spreading information to Baton Rouge Nos may not benefit when a Baton Rouge Toreador buys information about New Orleans, but it will benefit later when a New Orleans Ventrue buys information about Baton Rouge.

So I would say that the Nosferatu should be insulted by being compared to the Tremere. The Tremere are much too short-sighted to make information-socialism work for them the way it works for the Nosferatu.

Its understandable why individual tremere keep magical knowledge to themselves, its because its potentially a lot more dangerous than the type of information the nosferatu deal with.

A regent hides knowledge about lure of the flames, because he doesent want some idiot neonate doing something stupid like setting the chantry on fire. If a member of the chantry does something stupid like showing off their magical prowess in elisiyum, it would look badly on the chantry head because usually they are the ones who hand out any type of magical knowledge. The chantry head may have to answer to their superiors about any issues that occur under their watch.

On the other hand, a nosferatu elder sharing some political secrets with a nosferatu neonate, doesent have to worry too much about the neonate doing something stupid. This is because of the old saying, sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never. Knowing political secrets doesent give you the ability to throw fireballs. As long as the neonate doesent blackmail the wrong vampire, everyone is peachy. And lets say the neonate in question does blackmail the wrong vampire, the elder who revealed the information wont be held responsible, and pretty much gets of scott free, because he isn't beholden to any superiors.

[monteparnas]

I honestly don't know who would feel more insulted by that comparison. The Tremere or the Nosferatu.

Neither. The Toreador would.

So I would say that the Nosferatu should be insulted by being compared to the Tremere. The Tremere are much too short-sighted to make information-socialism work for them the way it works for the Nosferatu.

I don't think this is short-sightedness.

What we have here is a difference of "core-business" that defines a lot of how those clans work. Tremere deal in magic, so their main selling point is that outsiders never have access to their rituals without them, but they don't need as a clan to have all the same rituals everywhere. Instead of selling information, they're selling the lack thereof. In the end, doing things like the Nos would just loose their grasp on their magic as a defector or captured Tremere becomes able to sell more clan secrets.

On the main discussion, I just want to emphasize the difference between hating and loathing your sire and hating and loathing your clan. OP talks about the Nos as if they were a single entity doing everything together, and that's not what being united means. What happened to Nathaniel doesn't matter, because it is a single occurrence, not an example of how things always happen. Cleopatras may hate their sires as much as they want, and sire-hating may be even more intense among the Nosferatu than other clans, but it is irrelevant. More than any other clan, the Nosferatu gives you very early access to others of your kind, to a community of equals, equals that are not your sire. And staying in good terms with your sire is simply a survival necessity, like with every single clan (it is a rare vampire that genuinely likes their sire without a Blood Bond).

Being ugly, even deformed, isn't that big of a deal over time, either. People with deformities do exist and only have miserable lives when the people around them induce them to constant self-loathing. Ugliness doesn't cause misery, people do. And a community of equals is likely to help you grow over it, as happens to most disabled people (regardless of appearance) that grow over their self-loath when they start to communicate with other disabled people, especially with similar disabilities, and learn that most of their suffering was caused by other people, not by their condition.