There's no way Clan Nosferatu is as united as everyone says it is

[Black Fox]

Semi-related question: how do young Nos maintain relationships with their touchstones?

I don't know the V5 Touchstone rules. Do they require actual interaction between the vampire and a human? Or can it simply be provided by the Nosferatu watching over the human - making sure they are safe, being reminded of their past relationship, helping them in some way that may not ever be noticed by the human? There could even be some interaction as people, provided there is no face to face contact - such as writing letters, telephone conversations, having some kind of online relationship, leaving mementoes as a secret admirer, and so on.

And once sufficient Obfuscate is learned, it becomes easier for actual physical interaction.

[CajunKhan]

Semi-related question: how do young Nos maintain relationships with their touchstones?

[Gothik_Knight]

I just keep thinking that Amalia (a cleopatra) didn't seem to hate Gary Golden. First thing, other Nosferatu understand each other. They are each other's support network in those early days. More than any other clan, (except possibly malkavian?) how does a young nosferatu hunt without their sire's help, before they learn how to hide amongst mortals or to call animals to them? How will they maintain any shred of humanity without other nosferatu helping them get information and materials that allow them to feel as if they're still at least a little human? Amalia doesn't seem to hate Gary, but then again Gary is constantly doing things to help Amalia.

That said, I also don't think Nosferatu are quite as unified as people say. Remember that it's completely possible that people who think they're dealing with several different nosferatu are actually dealing with only one. The nosferatu like to trick people as to exactly how many of them are in a city at any given time. It's also very possible that nosferatu will simply present themselves as being in another sect in order to gain information. Meanwhile, battles between different groups of nosferatu are likely to go (mostly) unnoticed by top-siders.

[monteparnas]

That's an important part, unity isn't about not having disputes, it is about having effective ways to settle disputes without harming the whole. Most other clans somehow encourage their members to use clan assets to go at each other, fomenting disputes and rivalries to weed out the weak or something. That isn't necessarily bad for them, it just doesn't work for the Nos.

Instead they are far more likely to settle personal disputes personally, and far from outside eyes. Specially since their perceived unity also means that frequently harming your target's work harms your own reputation as a fellow Nos more than it harms their own reputation, as it'll be seen as a failing of the clan's networks and info gathering.

Depending on the particular warren, it may be that disputes are mediated, that some set of rules is in place, that some compromises are expected, that disputes are solved through duels, and overall the punishment for letting personal tensions affect the clan may be severe. But the point would be that inducing another Nos to fail shouldn't be acceptable as it undermines the clan's sense of unity.

[MyWifeIsScary]

LARP really isn't tabletop and shouldn't inform anyone's tabletop decisions as it's far too limited.

1-The overwhelming majority of Nosferatu "spying" is going to be done by contacts and animals and, in modern nights, technology. The Nosferatu being there himself is most likely camera setup, perhaps breaking in for some document rummaging, IE usually pretty rare and it's gotta be pretty important to do that. Using obfuscate to directly observe targets is fine, but using obfuscate to meet contacts is better.
Larp can't simulate having lots of dots in contacts unless you've got some kind of crazy budget. It's (also pretty bad for spying on people because everyone knows you're there)

2-Nosferatu don't have much better to do so they might as well pool their resources when it's a good idea.

3- Nosferatu rely on their reputation for information more than other clans.

4- even if you don't like another clan member, it wouldn't be good for the clan's reputation to let this matter get out. Nos can solve such disputes without involving others, so why let others know?

[Black Fox]

One thing that seems to rarely come up is player character Nosferatu should theoretically have access to this information-socialism, but rarely seem to. It just doesn't seem to occur to most ST's and players. Or is that only my experience?

Something like the Nosferatu information network seems to be hard for PCs to implement because it requires a lot of work. It's just easier for the ST as she can handwave stuff, and decide to dole it out as plot hooks (as opposed to something PCs can access when they want_.

Back when I LARPed, every player made mention of how the Nosferatu know a lot, but in actuality the Nosferatu PCs did not know anything more than any other PCs. Sure, some individual PCs made an effort to spy and learn stuff, but those PCs were just as easily Malkavians, Tremere, Giovanni, or anyone else as they were Nosferatu. When I finally played a Nosferatu, I decided to change that. So I pulled together some of the other Nosferatu PCs and said we were going to do it right. I asked each one to record whatever traits they saw players mention during contests, who seemed to be their coterie mates, things they were interested in, etc. And we compiled it in one place and built a nice little database of the entire game. It was a nice accomplishment, and made us feel we actually knew a lot of information about the game. But in truth, it was of little help because the dynamics of a LARP game rarely depends on knowing what is going on. But because we had rebuilt a lot of character sheets in our database, we did have a good idea of how dangerous in combat each character was, and could provide that to any other PC who bothered to ask us.

Now in tabletop it is different as only a few characters are PCs and everyone else are NPCs. Here the main issue is that the ST doesn't want reliance on the Nosferatu intelligence network to give PCs an unearned advantage, and allow them to avoid ST plot points by going around them to the Nosferatu. So there is an incentive for STs to NOT provide anything unless its to serve as a plot hook. As you said, it subverts the setting a little. So what I try to do is make the information that flows to any Nosferatu PC dependent on how much that PC contributes to it.

In other words, the characters who provided the most information to the network was allowed access to most of its information. A character who provided nothing got nothing. That provided an incentive to both NPCs and PCs to provide information so it would establish their reputation with other Nosferatu. So for a Nosferatu PC, it mainly meant informing on the other PCs in his coterie to the Nosferatu as this was the easiest thing to do, but in some circumstances it meant what they learned about NPCs in the game. Some players don't want to rat out their fellow PCs, so they tended to get very little information they could report. So they got only a little back. Although even Nosferatu which never contributed to the network would get (vague) warnings on danger if they were doing something that meddled with someone dangerous.

But no matter what the PCs do, it ultimately relies on the ST determining what the Nosferatu know and what they don't know, and what they are willing to share and why. It also means the ST has to be prepared to allow the Nosferatu to provide that information to PCs (often a Nosferatu PC but sometimes others) that replaces an element of the plot they intended, and what access to that information will cost. Sandbox style games work better with this. It's disruptive for railroad style or heavily plotted games because it allows run arounds of the STs plot elements.

[CajunKhan]

One thing that seems to rarely come up is player character Nosferatu should theoretically have access to this information-socialism, but rarely seem to. It just doesn't seem to occur to most ST's and players. Or is that only my experience?

[babi_gog]

On the other hand, a nosferatu elder sharing some political secrets with a nosferatu neonate, doesent have to worry too much about the neonate doing something stupid. This is because of the old saying, sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never. Knowing political secrets doesent give you the ability to throw fireballs. As long as the neonate doesent blackmail the wrong vampire, everyone is peachy. And lets say the neonate in question does blackmail the wrong vampire, the elder who revealed the information wont be held responsible, and pretty much gets of scott free, because he isn't beholden to any superiors.

That is of course until the secret is which gas main runs right under the elisiyum, and how to activate it, then there are fire balls...

[monteparnas]

I honestly don't know who would feel more insulted by that comparison. The Tremere or the Nosferatu.

Neither. The Toreador would.

So I would say that the Nosferatu should be insulted by being compared to the Tremere. The Tremere are much too short-sighted to make information-socialism work for them the way it works for the Nosferatu.

I don't think this is short-sightedness.

What we have here is a difference of "core-business" that defines a lot of how those clans work. Tremere deal in magic, so their main selling point is that outsiders never have access to their rituals without them, but they don't need as a clan to have all the same rituals everywhere. Instead of selling information, they're selling the lack thereof. In the end, doing things like the Nos would just loose their grasp on their magic as a defector or captured Tremere becomes able to sell more clan secrets.

On the main discussion, I just want to emphasize the difference between hating and loathing your sire and hating and loathing your clan. OP talks about the Nos as if they were a single entity doing everything together, and that's not what being united means. What happened to Nathaniel doesn't matter, because it is a single occurrence, not an example of how things always happen. Cleopatras may hate their sires as much as they want, and sire-hating may be even more intense among the Nosferatu than other clans, but it is irrelevant. More than any other clan, the Nosferatu gives you very early access to others of your kind, to a community of equals, equals that are not your sire. And staying in good terms with your sire is simply a survival necessity, like with every single clan (it is a rare vampire that genuinely likes their sire without a Blood Bond).

Being ugly, even deformed, isn't that big of a deal over time, either. People with deformities do exist and only have miserable lives when the people around them induce them to constant self-loathing. Ugliness doesn't cause misery, people do. And a community of equals is likely to help you grow over it, as happens to most disabled people (regardless of appearance) that grow over their self-loath when they start to communicate with other disabled people, especially with similar disabilities, and learn that most of their suffering was caused by other people, not by their condition.

[Hello]

The key difference between the Nos and Tremere is, individual Tremere are strongly motivated to horde knowledge, and Nosferatu are not. A Tremere who discovers a new ritual doesn't spread it around, instead using it to increase his/her personal power and wealth.

Nosferatu, on the other hand, engage in constant information-socialism within their own clan. They spread information freely, because they know that while being free with information may cost them in the short term, it benefits them long-term. A Nosferatu in New Orleans spreading information to Baton Rouge Nos may not benefit when a Baton Rouge Toreador buys information about New Orleans, but it will benefit later when a New Orleans Ventrue buys information about Baton Rouge.

So I would say that the Nosferatu should be insulted by being compared to the Tremere. The Tremere are much too short-sighted to make information-socialism work for them the way it works for the Nosferatu.

Its understandable why individual tremere keep magical knowledge to themselves, its because its potentially a lot more dangerous than the type of information the nosferatu deal with.

A regent hides knowledge about lure of the flames, because he doesent want some idiot neonate doing something stupid like setting the chantry on fire. If a member of the chantry does something stupid like showing off their magical prowess in elisiyum, it would look badly on the chantry head because usually they are the ones who hand out any type of magical knowledge. The chantry head may have to answer to their superiors about any issues that occur under their watch.

On the other hand, a nosferatu elder sharing some political secrets with a nosferatu neonate, doesent have to worry too much about the neonate doing something stupid. This is because of the old saying, sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never. Knowing political secrets doesent give you the ability to throw fireballs. As long as the neonate doesent blackmail the wrong vampire, everyone is peachy. And lets say the neonate in question does blackmail the wrong vampire, the elder who revealed the information wont be held responsible, and pretty much gets of scott free, because he isn't beholden to any superiors.

[CajunKhan]

The key difference between the Nos and Tremere is, individual Tremere are strongly motivated to horde knowledge, and Nosferatu are not. A Tremere who discovers a new ritual doesn't spread it around, instead using it to increase his/her personal power and wealth.

Nosferatu, on the other hand, engage in constant information-socialism within their own clan. They spread information freely, because they know that while being free with information may cost them in the short term, it benefits them long-term. A Nosferatu in New Orleans spreading information to Baton Rouge Nos may not benefit when a Baton Rouge Toreador buys information about New Orleans, but it will benefit later when a New Orleans Ventrue buys information about Baton Rouge.

So I would say that the Nosferatu should be insulted by being compared to the Tremere. The Tremere are much too short-sighted to make information-socialism work for them the way it works for the Nosferatu.

[AnubisXy]

So what I have learned is that the nosferatu are kind of like the tremere, except they're ugly and have a different discipline spread.

I honestly don't know who would feel more insulted by that comparison. The Tremere or the Nosferatu.

[Hello]

So what I have learned is that the nosferatu are kind of like the tremere, except they're ugly and have a different discipline spread.

[MyWifeIsScary]

1: you're ugly, but you're also immortal. Better 100 years as a Nos than 100 Years as a human. It's not like the other clans would've embraced you if a nosferatu hadn't, being embraced is an incredibly rare opportunity
2: abusive families can be pretty tight knit. That's also how cults work.
3: sires get a pretty big opportunity to filter out and brainwash their progeny, and Cleopatras usually get some love after getting humbled: Embracing someone who's going to be that resentful and not giving them what they need is a recipee for disaster. If you really just want to be cruel to a pretty person, you're stupid: Embracing willy-nilly is politically stupid.

[CTPhipps]

This also goes back to an earlier thread on how repulsive the Nosferatu should be. Their inspiration - Count Orlok played by Max Schrek and Klaus Kinski (although Kinski's character is actually called Dracula) - are certainly distinctive and grotesque, but they aren't as vile or repulsive as some VtM characters make the clan out to be. There's a big difference between looking like Max Schreck's Orlok than a truly disgusting creature.

A few points:

1. I believe the general point is that Nosferatu are objectively easily identifiable as nonhuman in previous editions and that by itself is a big fucking issue.

2. Before modern sewers, the Nosferatu lived in caves, ruins, and graveyards and other abandoned places. They had Aninalism to live on blood that would starve normal vampires.

3. And the reason the Nosferatu have so much power in the Camarilla is due to the fact....they're the most unified clan.

4. Nosferatu probably look worse than they could because, well, if you look like a ratman then you probably don't mind smelling terrible and wearing rags.