Why does Setite Sorcery include multiple, separate branches of blood magic?

[AnubisXy]

There is no basis. Glory to Set.

*diablerizes you*

I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas from. The witches are a thinly veiled lilith cult. Meanwhile the FoS have overwhelmingly been fast and loose when it comes to Set and they've been very happy about it. Thor? Set. Zeus? Set. Indra? Set. Nidhogg? Apep. Buddha? Set. Mara? Also Set. Yellow Dragon? Caine? Set. Eden serpent? Also Set. Mythical Snakes and Horny Storm Gods are a dime a dozen. The reactionary element of the clan who've been all -Egyptian Set and Egyptian set alone- have always been a small minority within the cult and even then it's difficult to say how many of them believe you shouldn't use masks at all and how many of them believe you can dress up Set as much as you want so long as you acknowledge the "Egyptian Truth".

V20 Book of Secrets, the section on the Witches of Echidna. It notes that they believe the various off-shoots of the Followers of Set (the Datiya of India, the Children of Judas, the Hall of Jormungandar, etc) aren't following the same deity but are following different deities. They also believe that Set/Typhon are dangerous and have something dark planned for the clan.

Each of these lines — and more — practice Setite
Sorcery in divergent ways, calling on different benefactors
and applying the results in varying terrible fashions. The
Witches of Echidna seek this conclusion. They recognize
the perfidy of Typhon, and his will via the actions of Setites
pitched against them. While they fight against their fates,
they zealously attempt to spread the blood magic cultivated
over millennia, to ensure their clan — in whatever form it
takes — remains strong against the slaves of the Aeons and
the caprice of their Antediluvian.

Setites differ wildly, and while many possess zealous piety,
this allegiance is to as many gods as there are cultures. Akhu’s
practitioners tap into and subvert the power of vampiric faith.
Faith spawns devotion; devotion leads to blind fanaticism; fanaticism
leads to chaos. Cainite scholars who study the Discipline
describe it as the power to forge chaos into a tool — whether
that tool is for aggression, seduction, or transfiguration. This
blood magic is a tangled weave of ethos and dogma, with each
cult of practitioners declaring dominance over its peers.

Followers of Set who know of their sorcerers identify them
as a peculiar breed. While divergent faiths rarely see eye-toeye,
the Witches counsel the different creeds on sharing a
sympathetic relationship. Each one believes he or she is correct,
so while they may undertake varied journeys, damning one
another for heresy is in opposition to their respective dogmas.
Their acts of sacrifice and supplication to the gods at whose
feet they kneel unify them, in a mutual, terrible aim:
Their sorcery will strengthen the clan. Their sorcery will
identify their founder’s location. Their sorcery will please
their founder and make him love them forever. If this aim
is not accomplished, their maddened founder will be sure
to consume them.

- V20 Book of Secrets 60-61

V20 Book of Secrets sets the line that different sects of Setites worship different gods, and not all of them believe that those are simply masks of Set. The Witches seem to hold that all of these beliefs are correct at the same time and they support those very heretical beliefs. It's why they ultimately get wiped out as heretics by the main-line, orthodox Setites. But it seems like their beliefs managed to survive them because the V5 Ministry, which worships numerous gods, seems pretty similar to what the Witches were espousing.

White Wolf was bought by Paradox in 2015. Book of Secrets was published in 2016. and V5 was published in 2018. It's possible that the Setites/Ministry split was decided and the segment on the Witches was included to pave the way for that split. Or it's possible that someone saw what was published with the Witches and decided to use that as the basis for the Ministry.

Whatever the case it feels like the Witches of Echidna were the prototype, inspiration or laid the groundwork for the Followers/Ministry split that we see in V5. Then from an in-character perspective, the Witches knew that their time was numbered so they gathered up magical knowledge and spread that throughout the clan, along with their heretical beliefs, hoping/believing that someday it would create a scism within the clan. We do see a scism in V5 so it seems like the Witches heretical beliefs won out, it just took almost a thousand years for that to happen.

[monteparnas]

The witches are a thinly veiled lilith cult.

And the Serpents of Light aren't even veiled Rastafarians, yet they're a Setite Bloodline.

It is not about Setite religion, it is about people following their own interpretations and twists on religion. The FoS spread and Embraced in other cultures for literally thousands of years, their liberal approach also means some of those "Cults of Set" actually branched out off of their theology as they were mixed and interpreted through the lenses of the new Followers own experiences and beliefs.

That's all. The core of the question isn't if their belief system makes sense within wider Setite theology or history, but if their culture and beliefs could have been the product of change through time and alienation from the source of the clan. Which given the age of the FoS is most likely, as if the WoE had appeared around the end of the Roman Republic, the origins of the Setites would already be one and a half again as ancient to them as their origin would be to us, 26 centuries apart (assuming it occurred at the time of the unification).

[MyWifeIsScary]

That's fair and it seems like the Witches form the basis for the Followers of Set/Minsitry split in V5..

There is no basis. Glory to Set.

*diablerizes you*

I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas from. The witches are a thinly veiled lilith cult. Meanwhile the FoS have overwhelmingly been fast and loose when it comes to Set and they've been very happy about it. Thor? Set. Zeus? Set. Indra? Set. Nidhogg? Apep. Buddha? Set. Mara? Also Set. Yellow Dragon? Caine? Set. Eden serpent? Also Set. Mythical Snakes and Horny Storm Gods are a dime a dozen. The reactionary element of the clan who've been all -Egyptian Set and Egyptian set alone- have always been a small minority within the cult and even then it's difficult to say how many of them believe you shouldn't use masks at all and how many of them believe you can dress up Set as much as you want so long as you acknowledge the "Egyptian Truth".

[AnubisXy]

I also don't see why there's the need to turn things into a "trinity" when clearly they're just different bloodlines that don't have much reason to interact with one another. As written, the WoE just serve to spit on the FoS. They're toxic.

That's fair and it seems like the Witches form the basis for the Followers of Set/Minsitry split in V5. The Witches beliefs of following many gods, or at least going with the idea that Set is simply one of those gods, seems to be really similiar to the professed beliefs of the Ministry. We know the Witches were officially wiped out, but before that happened they gathered up much of the mystic knowledge from the various off-shoots of the clan and then distributed it as widely as possible. It seems like the resurgence of that knowledge and their beliefs led to the schism between the Followers and the Ministry.

So they are toxic and they do spit on the Followers of Set, but it also seems like that was very much the plan, or at least they fit into the role that the plan required.

[MyWifeIsScary]

EDIT: I don't think the WoE are a problem. Egyptian religion was inclusive, give or take specific gods at specific times, but they're not Egyptian, they're Greek. The original Setites are from before Egypt's unification, that's a lot of time in the past, more than 3 thousand years before the start of the DA setting. Plenty of time for most Setites to have never lived in an inclusive society.

I recall a very misplaced and hostile tone with the WoE writeup, to put it in a way that won't draw mod ire. That kind of tone makes me reluctant to overlook the many mistakes of the WoE writeup, like being a greek clan but having Akhu (an egyptian term) as an in-clan discipline. Not to mention that Akhu is "high magic" (IE done by rich people in temples or chantries) and witchcraft is the posterchild of low magic practitioners (Poisons, curses, demons, performing rituals outdoors... )

IE the writer didn't put any research into their "cool idea"

I also don't see why there's the need to turn things into a "trinity" when clearly they're just different bloodlines that don't have much reason to interact with one another. As written, the WoE just serve to spit on the FoS. They're toxic. If I had to give them credit, I think the discipline spread and weakness aren't that bad, if they were a completely unrelated bloodline, I would probably use them with some frequency.

[Trassel]

That was Louhi, an ancient Malkavian that weirdly served the Lasombra Antediluvian.

Oh right, memory is not what it used to be!

Although this did spark some thoughts on what would replace Serpentis/Protean, and I think the best match I could think of would be Oblivion (speaking only for V5), so I took some time to write up a few powers. Since Oblivion has support for rituals, I think that would cover the blood Magic part as well, but is beyond what I have time with for now.

Level 1
Dissolve
Amalgam: Presence 1
Cost: Free
System: The Kindred adds Oblivion to all Subterfuge dice pools and at the storytellers discretion to any manipulation rolls (never Disciplines) involving breaking relations or lies. This power can never be used to make a character trust the user, as the insidious powers of oblivion does not create, only destroy. This power cannot be used at the same time as Awe or Daunt.

Level 2

Impulse
Amalgam: Presence 1
Cost: one rouse check
Dice pool: Manipulation + Oblivion vs Composure + Wits
System: the vampire causes the target to receive an impulse to hurt or damage someone, preferably someone close to them. While the vampire can not direct the target, leading conversation or a specific person being present makes it easier. The target receives the difference of the roll to the next action to inflict injury (health or willpower), and regains willpower equal to the amount of stains the action results in. This can even recover aggravated willpower damage.
If the target is unable to act out, they instead suffer the difference in willpower damage themselves, as long as the character has a reasonable way to do it.
Duration: this night and the following, or when acted upon.

Level 3

Fatigue
Amalgam: Presence 1
Cost: one rouse check
Dice pool: Resolve + Oblivion vs Composure + Resolve. If used in combat, it is resolved as a normal action instead, with the user rolling Resolve + Oblivion and the target using whatever dice pool applicable to their action.
System: the vampire touches her target and saps all will. This deals 1 willpower damage for every success. Fortitudes powers such as Unswayable Mind and fortify the inner facade reduces any damage in a combat situation by half Fortitude (round up, full Fortitude if the victims has both) and provide their normal benefits outside of combat.

Level 4
Inner Darkness
Amalgam: Potence 2 or Presence 2
Cost: One rouse check, 1 stain
System: the vampire channels the darkness either into themselves or into the very surroundings depending on if it is bought as a Presence or Potence amalgam. While this power is active, the vampire adds their Oblivion score to all Intimidate rolls.
If bought as an amalgam with Potence the change is obvious and horrible - the user becomes becomes engulfed in darkness. vampires no longer halve damage from her melee attacks. She also receives one less damage (before halving) from all attacks as her body is not quite substantial. Against any living target, the vampire adds half her Oblivion (round up) to any dice pools.
If bought as a presence amalgam the vampire instead dissolves bonds and relationships on anyone close (within a radius of roughly 10 meters) to them. This temporarily removes the effect of a blood bond as long as the vampire has at least the same blood potency as the regent, and temporarily shuts down all presence powers affecting anyone close, including themselves as long as their Oblivion score is higher. If it is equal, an opposed Resolve + Oblivion is rolled against Composure + Presence. On top of this, it also erodes all positive natural bonds and attachment entirely. While this does not by itself turn people violent or aggressive, any conflict that arises is likely to be very dark. Kindred and mortal alike treat all critical as messy criticals. Anyone under this power still suffers stains as normal for their actions.
While this version of the Presence power is subtle, a Kindred with Sense the Unseen rolls at difficulty 2 to detect it.
Duration: One scene

Level 5
Corruption
Amalgam: Presence 3
Cost: 2 rouse checks
Dice pool: Manipulation + Oblivion vs Composure + Resolve
System: The user destroys and inverts either a relationship the Kindred knows off, or the strongest the target has. This turns a touchstone, contact, ally, mawla into an enemy. It can even turn a blood bond, as long as the user has a higher blood potency than the regent. This anger causes any scene where the target does not actively pursue to hurt (in any way) the relationship, they take an aggravated willpower damage. If they do cause some injury (willpower, health, property, social) they instead heal one superficial willpower.
Duration: a number of scenes equal to the difference in successes, or until sunrise, whichever comes first.

[monteparnas]

I agree that, at the end of the day, it made sense for the Setites to have so many Sorcery Disciplines. They were the right combination of devotion to religious magic and acceptance of deviation, and had no central theory or philosophy to unify those traditions neither felt the need to.

Assamites aren't just a dysfunctional mess. More importantly, their sorcerers are academics. Their magic come from dutiful study and a baseline corpus of language and theories to better describe it to each other and make magical discussion and teaching work. They are extremely similar to the Tremere (and the Order of Hermes) in this regard, and it also means they'll learn the secrets of other sorcery oaths if they can, but will still translate it into the "standardized" and secular methods of Dur-An-Ki.

Tremere have a core understanding of magic far more strict and robust than the Banu Haqim, with an actual Universal Theory of Magic to back it up, but at the same time have the same attitude of learning everything they can, assuming that every magic conforms to their theory once adequately studied, and as such can be adapted to their superior methods. They're still Hermetics through and through in that regard. That's why they have a standard Discipline and every path conforms to it, with even more efficiency than to Dur-An-Ki (hence why it has more paths).

EDIT: I don't think the WoE are a problem. Egyptian religion was inclusive, give or take specific gods at specific times, but they're not Egyptian, they're Greek. The original Setites are from before Egypt's unification, that's a lot of time in the past, more than 3 thousand years before the start of the DA setting. Plenty of time for most Setites to have never lived in an inclusive society.

[MyWifeIsScary]

First and foremost, the main Followers of Set bloodline are priests*. Their discipline spread is geared towards them being priests . Egyptian priests practiced holy Egyptian magic. Religious magic works best when you believe in your practice, therefore when the extremely liberal FoS spread throughout the world and embraced locals, it's of no surprise that they started to mess with and adopt local beliefs (they're all masks of Set after all) and it's no surprise plenty of deviations happened (but it's cool because they're all masks of Set after all, we just want them to know that our Set mask is better/equal to their Set mask)

*and priestesses. Egyptians were inclusive, Set embraced a lot of women, I see no reason to make a feminine bloodline out of a reactionary stance towards a gendered term. The WoE can die in a ditch, they should never be canon)

In contrast, Tremere have rarely had this issue because they've got a very inclusive and "extremely moderate" "all religions are partly correct and we hope you don't get worked up about it, join our melting pot" philosophy. Logically speaking Assamite sorcerers are a dysfunctional mess because Dur-An-Ki isn't moderated and standardized nor based upon a rich faith that members are happy to indoctrinate you into. They're a minority within the clan and their magical ability is hampered by politics. Assamites make up for this by being more picky with talent, and in that an Assamite Sorcerer is only a sorcerer: the Tremere can be useful when he focuses on something else, the FoS Priests have lots of social obligations that often bring them away from their magic, but the Assamite Sorcerer was embraced for magic and magic alone and he's no good doing something else, there are warriors and viziers for that.

[Matt the Bruins fan]

Maybe the Setite (who’s name I forget) in A World of Darkness based in Finland that wanted to cover the world in darkness stood as a model?

That was Louhi, an ancient Malkavian that weirdly served the Lasombra Antediluvian.

[Gurkhal]

Surely the gangrel would be interested in embracing someone who has some magical talent? Or at least someone who has an educational background in ecology, or something similar. They cant all be lone wolf survivalists.

Some Gangrel might but a lone Gangrel with some dots in a blood sorcery does not make the rest of the Gangrel interested in said sorcery.

I can take myself as an example. I am pretty uninterested in magic. When I read fantasy I am unimpressed and pretty uninterested in whatever magical system the author has developed. I want to read about the characters and take some interest in mundane fighting and politics and the social and cultural aspects of the world building. But the magic parts don't interest me very much.

Same with RPGs as I very seldom play or feel excited about sorcerer characterrs.

In Crusader Kings II I turn off the supernatural events because I couldn't care less about them and don't want them interfering with what interests me in that game.

I don't find it at all strange that there are Cainites or entire clans that hold a similar attitude to sorcery. And mind you if you want to be good at sorcery you'll have to invest time and effort, also known as XP, into that area and in return not invest that XP in other areas like attributes, skills, merits etc

[adambeyoncelowe]

I would say it stems from the Setites. Ring highly underdeveloped as they were released. Maybe the Setite (who’s name I forget) in A World of Darkness based in Finland that wanted to cover the world in darkness stood as a model? I do not even think Setite sorcery was its own thing until the Blood Magic book, and then it started spinning from that point. There is no real reason, it just mutated forth.

Maybe they should have had Thaumaturgy/Blood Magic, but much like the Tzimisce they were rather small in scope when introduced and not the most thought through, rather their growth came later, and at that point the discipline spread was already set. Sudden change tends to be divisive among fans.
Serpentis/protean is an obviously poor fit to the clan.

Also, this. Spot on.

[adambeyoncelowe]

Actually, "Death Magic" is against everthing the Followers of Set stands for
Necromancy defile the corpse (an Akhu balspemy shirne is different) and enslave the soul of the dead
In every version, no matter the source, nor the tale they tell about Set, the core is the same: Settie religion promotes freedom from enslavement to dogma and conventional morality
They are Mesu Bedshet, the "Children of Rebellion"
They rebel agasint Law and Order, their goal is to tear the web of Ma'at apart, tear down the chains that were forced on Humanity and the word
Set realized that the Ra had not, in fact, created the world as a thing lesser than himself, but had merely shaped the same substance from which he, himself, was created. Set concluded that all souls differed only in size, but not in kind, and that all beings could someday achieve the same power of the Gods. The "Gods" - any kind of God, really - keep their mortal underlings entrapped in the illusion that they must, by nature, be subservient to the Gods. They sought to bind up the world in the web of Ma'at, or the great Order of things, which would allow them to entrap the hearts of mankind in eternal stasis, free from ambition, anger, or hope.
Set wished to stop Ra, from bringing law to society and hence binding people by it. In some legends Set apparently even tried to bargain with Ra and Osiris, asking that they leave the lands of Upper Egypt to him and his people, that they might be free from law, but they refused
Thanks to Ma'at, mankind became so dulled with subservience that they could no longer communicate with their Gods on a one-to-one basis
This extends to the funerery practices; a bit like how the Jade Emperor, Yu Huang enslaved most of the Asian souls and the dictator of the Dark Kingdom of Jade, Ra and Osiris enslaved the living with Ma'at and weakened them so Osiris could rule them in their death.
Necromancy and the enslavement of a soul is against everything the Mesu Bedshet stands for- to do what their ancient enemies done? I think its pretty impossible to reconcile.
You can choose freely to stay bound to the shackles of law and Ma'at, or you choose freedom with Set.
The Followers of Set tempt you, corrupt you, introduce a thousand and one sins to you... to make you free and strong enough, to tear yurself free form the shacles of Ma'at
Or be too weak and be consumed by the said corruption; in that case they did their best, sad, but acceptable loss, even if you can't rise above your own sins and temptations, still got far enough from the law, the accepted norm and such to weaken Ma'at
Every drop in the ocean counts

EDIT: sure individual settite could learn Necromancy and use it - in his eyes - for "good things" to save a soul or more from Osiris - but the main clan as a whole I think frowns on such practices for the above reasons, thos they have Serpentis/Protean (via Apep-connection origianlly and the corritpion for your own good theme)

They could have Akhu in-clan, if you preferred. That would also work. But when you read up on Akhu, a lot of it does, thematically speaking, chime with Necromancy too. There's defilement of the dead and their belongings at the blasphemy shrine, Egyptian burial customs, and 'opening the gate' to power spells through the dead.

Necromancy strikes me as very fitting for an ancient Egyptian clan -- one trying to resurrect a dead god, no less -- and the Serpents already use it out-of-clan.

The other thing to bear in mind is that Necromancy has broadened to cover other Disciplines over the years. As well as raising and enslaving the dead, it covers eating spirits (Nihilistics), withering flesh (Mortis, Thanatosis), whatever the kissy-killy Lamiae Path does (Deimos), and more. There's no reason the Setites couldn't get some proprietary Paths to add in there. Snakey powers can be covered as a manifestation of their dead god's victory over the slain Apophis, thereby making the Soul of the Serpent a Necromancy Path.

It's more thematically appropriate than Serpentis (random snake powers!) or Protean (turn into an animal -- and move even further away from the core themes of the clan in the process!).

But also, I feel like some Paths blur the line between Necromancy and Thaumaturgy, making it sort of arbitrary at times. I also think some Thaumaturgy Paths would work well for Necromancy and vice versa. It would be easier to say that each tradition of blood magic is learned as a new Discipline (so: Blood Magic (Akhu) would be one and Blood Magic (Wanga) would be another), having a set menu of Paths you can learn (and which ones you absolutely can't). Then Akhu could draw from a list of Paths from both Thaumaturgy and Necromancy, provided they fit the overarching paradigm. Inappropriate Paths would simply require them to learn an additional tradition (as a new Path-based Discipline, and out-of-clan).

[Trassel]

I would say it stems from the Setites. Ring highly underdeveloped as they were released. Maybe the Setite (who’s name I forget) in A World of Darkness based in Finland that wanted to cover the world in darkness stood as a model? I do not even think Setite sorcery was its own thing until the Blood Magic book, and then it started spinning from that point. There is no real reason, it just mutated forth.

Maybe they should have had Thaumaturgy/Blood Magic, but much like the Tzimisce they were rather small in scope when introduced and not the most thought through, rather their growth came later, and at that point the discipline spread was already set. Sudden change tends to be divisive among fans.
Serpentis/protean is an obviously poor fit to the clan.

[Reasor]

Not an expert, but Gangrel aren't mystically inclined, in my limited experience. They are more "try casting that again without any fingers," inclined.

Then there's that whole thing about using Gangrel to make Gargoyles. That might have soured a lot of them on learning sorcery...

The clan's baseline disciplines are so incredibly utilitarian that Gangrel would have little to gain by becoming wizards, I imagine.

[Baaldam]

That seemed like the whole deal with the Witches of Echidna who went around collecting and sharing as much of the clan's mystic rites and occult knowledge as possible with all of the various Setite groups, before they were ultimately wiped out for being heretics.

Truth be told, the greater part of those branches/sub-bloodlines/etc might be more elegantly done by adapting into loresheets nowadays, imho.