Secret Lasombra

[Moriaki]

Out of curiosity, what obfuscate power is Vitel using?
Except for 'Create name' which is lvl 9, none of the powers seem to be able to hide one's lineage like that.
Mind blank and/or cloak would certainly help, but wouldn't suffice.

[monteparnas]

Just take a gander of how many folks have there face in a Cell-Phone or I-Pad and not minding there enviorment.

Even people minding their environment wouldn't notice this with any regularity, it's just too exceedingly specific without reason to go for it.

[Lysander]

On the other hand in a crowd, would anyone really notice, you have reflection or not?
In my humble opponion, Humans are self absorbed to the point, their surroundings became blurred, and the other poeple around them are faceless blobs. Talking with friends or dive in to their phone... even on broad dayligt wouldn't notice soemone who walked pass by them had 0 reflection! And at night, when barely anyone on th streets? Or if there are peoples on the street at night ,you know, the usual bunch, dealers, hookers, beggars, cummuning people late from the work, just want to get home, youngsters partying or hanging togehter... I doubt even they would notice somewone who passed the cars and shopwindows had no reflection...
That is, if the Lasombra care
If you are camarilla, you are known, you dont have to hide it, and hunt carefully; If you are an inflitrator, you are extra careful, if you are a Sabbat, you don't really care... or just simply, in your limousine no one can see if you ave a reflection or no... depends of the Lasombra lifestyle

I have to agree with that assesment of the average person. Most of us are not like the fictional Sherlock Holmes in general and when you go out to dine or go to the mall. Just take a gander of how many folks have there face in a Cell-Phone or I-Pad and not minding there enviorment. So the Lasombra would be safe from that.

[monteparnas]

A smart Lasombra would think of this I think
Especially in the modern age, it is super easy to photoshop or manipulate some recordings where there Lasombra is THERE and conviniently, potential investigators happen to find such an evidence
Or - after all, we are taking the Infiltrator scenario here- have a Tzimisce buddy, who makes him a few perfect body duble ghoul or even dominated/blood bonded non-lasombra cainite to act as a body double, who can shows up places with mirrors, plaza, etc. or even trained enough to even visit Elysium or such gathering where actually seek out mirrors and refelctive surfeces!
I worked pretty well for Castro and other leaders...

The only caveat here is to not overdo things, or your efforts may become suspicious themselves.

For example, avoiding mirrors and cameras will start to attract attention if your double seek them instead. Yes, you produce lots of evidence, but you also has an erratic behavior that seems too convenient. One options could be for a double to avoid mirrors and then lash out against one they couldn't avoid, as that would make clear that you have a reflection, but also that you hate mirrors. Even then this should be as low profile an occurrence as possible, so it doesn't seem to have been made on purpose.

If you have too many or too convenient evidence that you're not a Lasombra, people will start to wonder if you're not actually Lasombra.

But yes, if this is a Sabbat agent, then he can get some help from packmates or even other sect members. But even without it, I actually think the risk is sufficiently manageable that they wouldn't really care so much about your clan weakness as they would about your credentials as an infiltrator.

[Shadeprowler]

Bonus if this person had false positives before, then there's no reason to take their suspicion seriously or act on their eventual accusations.

A smart Lasombra would think of this I think
Especially in the modern age, it is super easy to photoshop or manipulate some recordings where there Lasombra is THERE and conviniently, potential investigators happen to find such an evidence
Or - after all, we are taking the Infiltrator scenario here- have a Tzimisce buddy, who makes him a few perfect body duble ghoul or even dominated/blood bonded non-lasombra cainite to act as a body double, who can shows up places with mirrors, plaza, etc. or even trained enough to even visit Elysium or such gathering where actually seek out mirrors and refelctive surfeces!
I worked pretty well for Castro and other leaders...

[monteparnas]

Most of the time people simply don't pay a lot of attention to others' reflections, specially on transit areas. Actual mirrors in most places are usually positioned for the convenience of those who actively seek them if they're not just decoration, and decoration mirrors are in transit areas. In Elysium forcing guests to deal with mirrors is probably a faux-pas, as many a vampire may not like what they see in the mirror anyway. And people seldom pay enough attention to reflective surfaces that aren't actual mirrors to analyze if everyone else around has a reflection.

Add to this that someone can simply not like mirrors, this is a thing, and I don't actually think that a cautious, subtle Lasombra would have too much of a problem keeping this secret for several decades, maybe even centuries. It isn't as if all vampires in a city live in the same dorm or frequent the same shopping centers in groups every night. The actual amount of time a vampire is required to interact with others, and the circumstances of those encounters, are all considerably easy to have some control over to minimize exposition to unwanted mirrors without attracting attention.

Not having a reflection also doesn't have to be a common Flaw by itself. As long as folklore Flaws are a thing at all in the chronicle, the characters have no reason to think someone can't have this particular Flaw. Of course, the rarer those are, the greater will be the suspicion that this vampire can be a Lasombra if the lack of a reflection is found out at all, but just not being a certainty already goes a long way. And the two things may easily work together: if you don't have a reflection because of random mystical weirdness, it makes perfect sense that you don't want to be noticed, so you can avoid mirrors and only pretend to have this Flaw to whomever finds out you don't have a reflection.

Of course, there may be paranoid Lasombra haters that actively try to find out if you have a reflection. That's something else entirely, but then it's someone with exceedingly specific issues and probably no one likes their insistence in seeing everyone's reflections, which may also mean that avoiding mirrors became an actually common habit in the city. Bonus if this person had false positives before, then there's no reason to take their suspicion seriously or act on their eventual accusations.

In the end, though, things depend too much on the identity this infiltrator is trying to assume, and I really think that the whole discussion is happening in a vacuum here. Who does this vampire claims to be? Are there others vouching for him? Vampires from out of town are a thing from time to time, and anyone may have reasons to claim to be another person, of another clan. Even though some clans have a less tight grasp on lineages, declaring at least your sire and preferably going up a few people is simply common sense in a society that by design has no written documentation nor surnames to help identify you.

Vitel was a 5th Generation Methuselah that took pains for most of his existence to not draw too much attention to himself, so virtually no one knows him, and then he assumes an identity that is actually completely compatible with him: a Roman official embraced in the time of the Empire, with low enough Generation that his own sire would be a legend, if he knows them at all. He barely had to change anything about his own story but name, profession in life and clan, so anyone looking into his past would... just confirm his story more than anything.

[Ethryo]

Hi
I would like to know how different ST's deal with the Lasombra who pretend to be a member of another Clan. At least two cannonical examples have been given in canon but I find hard to believe their charade would last long.
I am considering introducing one in my game but I am not sure if it's a good idea, and if I go for it, how and how much should I deal with the PC ' s perception of it.
Thanks for the help

In my 1993 campaign (V5) I had a Lasombra who was embraced into the ire but her sire had made great enemies within the clan and overreached her bounds. So they had sent Talley to deal with the problem and he killed the sire while it was educating the player in how to be a Lasombra and how to kill the enemies. So just as talley had slain the sire and turned towars the player. Something made him stop and whisked her away to Chicago and become her guardian angel (Loresheet Talley).

So now the player acyts as if she is Caitiff avoids most others outside the coterie and has a speciality in awareness on (reflective surfaces and cameras) and is paranoid about others reccognize what she is.

[Herr Meister]

I recall one game I was running where the players were trying to take out this other vampire. They were pretty sure he was a Lasombra, but they didn't know. So they set up a plan to find out. They found out where he was going and attacked his car. The vampire got out and rushed down the street. The players had set up super high definition cameras to catch his reflection in the side mirrors of other cars on the street. There wasn't a reflection so they decided he was a Lasombra. Close, he was actually a Baali and he'd given up his reflection as part of a demonic pact.

That's an interesting story.

[AnubisXy]

I recall one game I was running where the players were trying to take out this other vampire. They were pretty sure he was a Lasombra, but they didn't know. So they set up a plan to find out. They found out where he was going and attacked his car. The vampire got out and rushed down the street. The players had set up super high definition cameras to catch his reflection in the side mirrors of other cars on the street. There wasn't a reflection so they decided he was a Lasombra. Close, he was actually a Baali and he'd given up his reflection as part of a demonic pact.

[Thoth]

Go outside at night after a rain in a busy area: Lasombra simply can't leave their homes because of common scenarios like this.

While rain can create puddles which can act as reflective surfaces, the scenario doesn't play out realistically.

If you are not in the city, then there is a lot less light and far fewer people, so even if there are large puddles, no one will see anything.

If you are in the city, theoretically there is decent drainage, so no puddles. But this is WoD so everything has to be dark and gritty, but that means garbage strewn puddles, not exactly a crystal clear reflection. Also the more people romping around, the more vehicles driving about, the less stable the water will be, which means you can't see anything in it.

Most other surfaces even if wet either don't create a reflective enough scenario to be problem or the few that do are not a problem within a matter of minutes once the rain stops. If it is still raining when the Lasombra is out and about, nothing will have a clear reflection due to water disturbance.

So how exactly is rain in a busy area going to be an issue again? I ask because the WoD is supposed to be our world but darker, and we live in a world where people playing Pokemon Go have walked off cliff edges or into moving traffic. Awareness and Common Sense seem to be mythical grade super powers.

[Shadeprowler]

On the other hand in a crowd, would anyone really notice, you have reflection or not?
In my humble opponion, Humans are self absorbed to the point, their surroundings became blurred, and the other poeple around them are faceless blobs. Talking with friends or dive in to their phone... even on broad dayligt wouldn't notice soemone who walked pass by them had 0 reflection! And at night, when barely anyone on th streets? Or if there are peoples on the street at night ,you know, the usual bunch, dealers, hookers, beggars, cummuning people late from the work, just want to get home, youngsters partying or hanging togehter... I doubt even they would notice somewone who passed the cars and shopwindows had no reflection...
That is, if the Lasombra care
If you are camarilla, you are known, you dont have to hide it, and hunt carefully; If you are an inflitrator, you are extra careful, if you are a Sabbat, you don't really care... or just simply, in your limousine no one can see if you ave a reflection or no... depends of the Lasombra lifestyle

[MyWifeIsScary]

To be fair vampires tend to prefer dimly lit and somewhat private venues, so being away from shiny surfaces with enough light to have functional reflections is not exactly uncommon.
.

Go outside at night after a rain in a busy area: Lasombra simply can't leave their homes because of common scenarios like this.

[Shadeprowler]

Also, I will include the clue that his gang goes around breaking mirrors and windows before he arrives to a place
And finally some rumours of a guy who once dared to accuse him and is now dead.

In my humble oppinion, a Lasombra elder would not send his gangs to do such a thing - a thing that could be suspicious and could be easly track back to him - , but would hire a guy who hires a guy who hires a young guys, who could dare a bunch of kids "bah, chikens! You wouldn't dare to sneak in to that old hosue to smash wondows, mirrors, furintures, etc..." (or to make it even funnier, taunt a Brujah or his biker gang? so if he would be cought? he could drag that camarilla brujah with him "yeah? that guy who broke those things prepared my heaven woked for me and the sabbat all along! nice sub-plot or follow up chronicle to clear his name with another investigation or save their skin since the players uncovered that lasombra and dragged that Brujah in to the fray, who is now pissed at THEM, so on) or would try to find a run down hosues, already in bad shape, pre.broken mirrors and windows and would move there
Or would simply rent or buy an aparment on the top of a skyscraper or similar
Be a harsh DM, make them work for those clues!
Then be misreble for finding them

[Microcuchon]

A lot of good ideas here. I agree than sending a Lasombra infiltrator is a sub optimal plan, so I need a good in universe reason to do it. I will go for the ambitious Sabbat elder who is playing their own game, without the sect's approval.
Also, I will include the clue that his gang goes around breaking mirrors and windows before he arrives to a place
And finally some rumours of a guy who once dared to accuse him and is now dead.

[Herr Meister]

There's actually two things that hid Vitel's identity. His 6th level of Obfuscate "hides" his actual lineage from anyone who attempts to learn it, whether by mundane or mystical means. The second thing is a magical pin clasp that allows him to cast reflections. From a meta perspective, these are the kind of things that make me groan as it seems very over the top and done SIMPLY to allow this character to masquerade as a Ventrue. DCbN's writer, Harry Heckel, clearly loved this character and the plot behind him.

I didn't mention the pin because, if I'm not mistaken, he would only be able to do it after getting rid of Marissa. In any case, as mentioned, any cainite from any clan can have the "cast no reflection" flaw. Also, Marcus Vitel besides being cool, is also very powerful and even more than that he has the backing of a even more powerful being behind him. So, for someone to discover he is a Lasombra, the best bet would probably need a Tremere to get his blood, etc. I really don't see a prince of his caliber to be asked by a clan hated by most to "provide a sample of his blood". I don't see any need for "plot armor" in his case. Plot armor is to make John Kent kill Petaniqua or Theo Bells kill Hardestadt "the perhaps younger" with a shotgun shot and killing Karsh(someone that by his traits, should be able to kill about 39 "Theo Bells" in a fight while brushing his teeth with one hand and kicking Xaviar's ass at the same time), THESE THINGS are basically UNBELIEVABLE to anyone "actually playing the game and rolling dice". So, no, I don't think Marcus Vitel really needed plot armor...