(V5) Do we really miss high-level Disciplines?

[Asmodai]

Though I have no idea what to consider clever about either Oblivion or Blood Sorcery.

They are lackluster knockoffs of more interesting powers, the only way they have depth or applications is in comparison to the other powers in V5.
I was a huge fan of Abyss Mysticism and Quietus.

[Banu_Saulot]

My take on it?
No, I don't miss it. If I want some powerful Discipline for a great elder or a methuseleah, sure, I can take a look in higher tier disciplines, other than that, no interest.
To me 6+ disciplines always seemed pure supplement crunch filler. And I always hated that only these high levels got to have multiple versions, even if there is an in-universe explanation as to why elder blood can do that.

And so many of them were lackluster, things that should be lower or something else. So, a tad bit specific.
I'm happy with them gone, and V5 has good reason to not have them, in-universe and in system.

In a way, they always felt like Plot Device. Or ideas for a single character.

[monteparnas]

I suppose this is going to get controversial quickly

It didn't. No one miss them.

Even the only two who said they do didn't actually described anything resembling a need for them.

Adapt whatever you find interesting, it really won't be that hard (or numerous), and be happy.

[blailton]

I miss it, indeed.

V5 elders are very lackluster. Take a look at Helena.

+1 vote who thinks Disciplines are extremely weak in v5.

About elder disciplines,Obfuscation is the biggest example I can think of at the moment. Someone with max obfuscation level in v5 can be countered by Auspex 1; Worse still, obfuscation level 5 is pretty shitty considering that theoretically only elders will have access to this max-level-power. Also, some stories become possible if there is Obfuscate capable of hiding an entire household.

I really like it when PCs and NPCS follow the same rules. "Just houserule it in" or "This power is simply plot device, not for players, don't care about the system behind it" are two answers that I find unsatisfactory.

I think most posters on this forum are ST's and it shows. As a ST, it might not make that much of a difference whether an elder power exists or not on your table, as you can just houserule it in, but as a PC, it's quite nice to have something to ASPIRE FOR. Elder powes are the distant promise. It's a toy that you swing in front of the baby. It's the promotion that may or may not happen some day in your job. "If your character plays all the cards correctly and survives, one night, accumulating XP, he will be able to buy THIS POWAA!"

In v5, it would feel like my PC is in a dead-end job, because even if I accumulate infinite xp points, at the end of the day I would be a elder vampire that have very so-so powers. However in previous editions, as a result of being a good jihad player one night I would, I don't know, have a character with the power to transform into a teleporter griffin, constroy vozds, cause earthquakes, or whatever.

Another point is that as a player I would be annoyed if an NPC had a power that my character could never get because "it's just a plot device power invented by st". I also wouldn't want to use a power that ST allowed me to use just out of pity, which has no official system to support.

Other than that, I agree that some feats of wod's history become impossible in v5. Michael Dream, Menele Destroying Pompeii, The Twelve of Hunedora, etc. These feats are narrated in a third-person out-of-universe narrator, so to say they are just exaggerations would be a retcon.

[SetiteFriend]

I miss it, indeed.

V5 elders are very lackluster. Take a look on Helena.

+1 vote who thinks Disciplines are extremely weak in v5.

About elder disciplines,Obfuscation is the biggest example I can think of at the moment. Someone with max obfuscation level in v5 can be countered by Auspex 1; Worse still, obfuscation level 5 is pretty shitty considering that theoretically only elders will have access to this max-level-power. Also, some stories become possible if there is Obfuscate capable of hiding an entire household.

As someone who has actually played a lot of V5, disciplines certainly aren't weak, I really don't see where people get that from.

Auspex vs Obfuscate is a contested roll. Ignoring attributes and BP, that is 5 dice vs 1. Level 5 disciplines also aren't elder only, it's a high level of mastery, but it really depends on how the character specializes.

I really like it when PCs and NPCS follow the same rules. "Just houserule it in" or "This power is simply plot device, not for players, don't care about the system behind it" are two answers that I find unsatisfactory.

I think most posters on this forum are ST's and it shows. As a ST, it might not make that much of a difference whether an elder power exists or not on your table, as you can just houserule it in, but as a PC, it's quite nice to have something to ASPIRE FOR. Elder powes are the distant promise. It's a toy that you swing in front of the baby. It's the promotion that may or may not happen some day in your job. "If your character plays all the cards correctly and survives, one night, accumulating XP, he will be able to buy THIS POWAA!"

I prefer V5's Level 5 powers, as they are actually achievable instead of a silly dream.

In v5, it would feel like my PC is in a dead-end job, because even if I accumulate infinite xp points, at the end of the day I would be a elder vampire that have very so-so powers. However in previous editions, as a result of being a good jihad player one night I would, I don't know, have a character with the power to transform into a teleporter griffin, constroy vozds, cause earthquakes, or whatever.

A lot of level 5s are literally old elder powers. Are those so-so too?

[SetiteFriend]

I really don't miss them. Powers by the book work well for elders, and any adjustments I'd make, I'd apply them to players to.

If I want a Methuselah to have a wacky power or do some grand things, it simply does it, it doesn't need mechanics, players aren't going to become Methuselahs over the course of the chronicle. And that's because the Methuselah itself isn't a (or at least shouldn't be) character most of the time, they are themselves the plot device

[monteparnas]

I think most posters on this forum are ST's and it shows. As a ST, it might not make that much of a difference whether an elder power exists or not on your table, as you can just houserule it in, but as a PC, it's quite nice to have something to ASPIRE FOR. Elder powes are the distant promise. It's a toy that you swing in front of the baby. It's the promotion that may or may not happen some day in your job. "If your character plays all the cards correctly and survives, one night, accumulating XP, he will be able to buy THIS POWAA!"

You address a lot of arguments no one made.

The point isn't about using different rules or even arguing against the premise behind elder level powers. The point is about execution.

Requiem being the easiest and readily available example has such powers in the form of extremely powerful Devotions with exceedingly high requisites. They're in practice the domain of elders, yet they follow the normal rules, are fine for PCs to aspire for and have no need to break the 5-level cap. So mechanically there are other, actually better ways to achieve the same effect. V5 is only limited on this regard because of the inbuilt limit of one-power-per-level, yet as AFAIK most people simply ignore this rule because almost no one thinks it is a good idea anyway, so in practice it has the same thing in the form of Amalgams.

More to the point of the thread, though, the problem is less the mechanic and more the actual list of elder level powers put on paper in previous editions. And with very few exceptions they suck.

So this is the core point of this discussion. It is not that the idea of elder powers isn't good. It is that the actual powers suck royally. As a player I think they suck. Most players think they suck. And when you look at them objectively and in their context, that is, considering the requisite and XP cost to learn them, a lot of them demonstrably suck.

A few are really good? Yeah, sure. Maybe a dozen are worth the effort and XP if you count the whole list from four editions. But most simply don't, really, the far majority of them. They're either nice ideas that should by all means be available at lower levels, something so circumstantial that should be a Merit or something, or simply suck however you look at them. They make you as a player think that your XP would be far better invested elsewhere given the obscene amount you're going to spend.

V5 has a simple solution for the specific powers that is to adapt them into the 5 normal levels, which is exactly what Manfr was doing when they decided to open the thread. So the question wasn't about the concept of elder powers, but the actual list, and the observation that they're just not that interesting. Can you point to the list of elder powers and tell me how many you really ever seriously considered to buy with a PC of yours, without any house-rule?

[blailton]

You address a lot of arguments no one made.

The point isn't about using different rules or even arguing against the premise behind elder level powers. The point is about execution.

Requiem being the easiest and readily available example has such powers in the form of extremely powerful Devotions with exceedingly high requisites. They're in practice the domain of elders, yet they follow the normal rules, are fine for PCs to aspire for and have no need to break the 5-level cap. So mechanically there are other, actually better ways to achieve the same effect. V5 is only limited on this regard because of the inbuilt limit of one-power-per-level, yet as AFAIK most people simply ignore this rule because almost no one thinks it is a good idea anyway, so in practice it has the same thing in the form of Amalgams.

More to the point of the thread, though, the problem is less the mechanic and more the actual list of elder level powers put on paper in previous editions. And with very few exceptions they suck.

So this is the core point of this discussion. It is not that the idea of elder powers isn't good. It is that the actual powers suck royally. As a player I think they suck. Most players think they suck. And when you look at them objectively and in their context, that is, considering the requisite and XP cost to learn them, a lot of them demonstrably suck.

A few are really good? Yeah, sure. Maybe a dozen are worth the effort and XP if you count the whole list from four editions. But most simply don't, really, the far majority of them. They're either nice ideas that should by all means be available at lower levels, something so circumstantial that should be a Merit or something, or simply suck however you look at them. They make you as a player think that your XP would be far better invested elsewhere given the obscene amount you're going to spend.

V5 has a simple solution for the specific powers that is to adapt them into the 5 normal levels, which is exactly what Manfr was doing when they decided to open the thread. So the question wasn't about the concept of elder powers, but the actual list, and the observation that they're just not that interesting. Can you point to the list of elder powers and tell me how many you really ever seriously considered to buy with a PC of yours, without any house-rule?

No. And I'm not in the mood to engage with you.

I didn't like the tone of your comment. I don't understand why you think you have the right to gatekeep what topic is about or isn't. I expressed my opinion, which is within the scope of the conversation. If it's off-topic that's something for the mods to decide, not you. Rereading my comment, I don't see any threadcrapping or low-effort. Please do not reply to this comment.

[blailton]

As someone who has actually played a lot of V5, disciplines certainly aren't weak, I really don't see where people get that from.

From Cats Grace, Fleetness, Draught of Elegance, Defy Bane, Bond Famulus, Draught of Endurance, Draught of Might, Oblivion in general, Blood Sorcery, Sense the Beast, Mesmerize, Ancestral Dominion, Lingering Kiss, Feral Weapons, Vicissitude, The Unfettered Heart, Ghost in the Machine, and many many many others disciplines powers that are very very bad if you use the system RAW.

Auspex vs Obfuscate is a contested roll. Ignoring attributes and BP, that is 5 dice vs 1.

True. My b.

Level 5 disciplines also aren't elder only, it's a high level of mastery, but it really depends on how the character specializes.

That's not the good defense you're thinking it is. This means that an Elder can have non-elders gaining the exact same powers as him. It causes embarrassing situations like Chicago by night, where a 200 year old Cainite has only one or two fewer dice on the dice pool to hypnotize someone compared to Helena, a Methuselah (don't worry, I'm counting blood buff and bonus by blood potency).

I think I expressed myself badly. What I meant is, the Vampire maxed out at that power, all he can do is this. I find it unimpressive.

I prefer V5's Level 5 powers, as they are actually achievable instead of a silly dream.

Considering that in V5, RAW, you get a single point of XP per session, it might not be as achievable as you think.... Unless you and your party play every day or your ST uses houserule and gives more XP . Also, calling elders powers unobtainable in past editions is exaggerating and you know it.

A lot of level 5s are literally old elder powers. Are those so-so too?

They are not "a lot". In fact, not even one. It may be the same in name, perhaps, but in the system part it is quite different. For example, Ancestral Dominion. Although the lore is similar, the part of the system it uses in v5 is something completely nerfed compared to previous editions. Considering system and dice rolls, the power user would be lucky to be able to pass the domination order to the Cainite-like grandchildren. Another example: Shadow Step. In v5 it's so limited compared to its counterpart in past editions that it's practically a smaller, less impressive version. Tenebrous Avatar, in V5 you become a shadow in the wall. In past editions Tenebrous Avatar was more impressive, you become 3d shadow stuff.

[monteparnas]

I didn't like the tone of your comment. I don't understand why you think you have the right to gatekeep what topic is about or isn't. I expressed my opinion, which is within the scope of the conversation. If it's off-topic that's something for the mods to decide, not you. Rereading my comment, I don't see any threadcrapping or low-effort. Please do not reply to this comment.

On the matter of tone, I'm sorry if it seemed so bad. I don't want to gatekeep nothing, but maybe I didn't understood the point of your comment, or you didn't understood the point of mine, or maybe both. But by my part, I didn't liked how you made assumptions about "most posters" either, which may be why I was grumpy when replying.

But on the matter of your your solicitation, obviously I didn't and won't comply. How do you come into the conversation, make a blanket statement about everyone else whose purpose is to disqualify our opinions from a player perspective, accuse me of gatekeeping, and then directly tell me to not reply in a forum?

At least I tried to engage with your argument, however the quality of my arguments. I find it reasonable to expect the same treatment.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I've never used an npc with more than the 7th level of anything. Those guys don't show up. People worry about those guys showing up, but they've done us all a favour and haven't. That kind of tension helps the chronicle even if it's never used.


I like Generational conflict a lot, so For PCs, the 6th level is realistically obtainable in most VTM games that last long enough if the players are inclined to go there. More often than not, the city will have a 7th gen elder somewhere. Such elders are strong, but not unassailable. Conversely, players who are foolish enough to take 4-5 dots of generation at character creation while they're still weak automatically put a target on their back.

[Ragged Robin]

To approach it from a different angle is their any actual reason they shouldn't exist? How does their absence benifit the game?

[Heavy Arms]

The Disciplines really weren't designed to handle a 1-9 range, as they were originally meant to be 1-5 ratings as defined powers with 6+ being ST fiat territory. The lack of future-proofing is why the Elder Disciplines are generally seen as mechanically poorly done: nobody, not even the devs, never what 6+ dots were really supposed to do and made up powers as plot demanded at first. Their removal benefits the game by making it much clearer what the potency of each level is supposed to be.

Werewolf's Rank 6 Gifts, and Archsphers in Mage suffered similar design issues of wildly inconsistent value and frequent niche powers that were born of the writers wanting to model King Jonas's "for an enemy into a one-on-one duel" power, and Porthos's ability to fling nukes at people.

There isn't really much of a design space for such powers, and we can see things like VtR handling "unique powers Elders have developed," without trying to figure out what five levels of "completely mastery" of a power is supposed to mean.

[MarkK]

As someone who has run a fair number of elder campaigns in VtM, yes, I miss them, but that goes into how narrow the range of V5 disciplines are, as others have already touched on.

Otherwise, janky though they might have been, they did an overall useful enough job at making the players feel old and potent.

[Ragged Robin]

The Disciplines really weren't designed to handle a 1-9 range, as they were originally meant to be 1-5 ratings as defined powers with 6+ being ST fiat territory. The lack of future-proofing is why the Elder Disciplines are generally seen as mechanically poorly done: nobody, not even the devs, never what 6+ dots were really supposed to do and made up powers as plot demanded at first. Their removal benefits the game by making it much clearer what the potency of each level is supposed to be.

Werewolf's Rank 6 Gifts, and Archsphers in Mage suffered similar design issues of wildly inconsistent value and frequent niche powers that were born of the writers wanting to model King Jonas's "for an enemy into a one-on-one duel" power, and Porthos's ability to fling nukes at people.

There isn't really much of a design space for such powers, and we can see things like VtR handling "unique powers Elders have developed," without trying to figure out what five levels of "completely mastery" of a power is supposed to mean.

Isn't that more an issue witn execution rather than intent?