(V5) Do we really miss high-level Disciplines?

[SetiteFriend]

From Cats Grace, Fleetness, Draught of Elegance, Defy Bane, Bond Famulus, Draught of Endurance, Draught of Might, Oblivion in general, Blood Sorcery, Sense the Beast, Mesmerize, Ancestral Dominion, Lingering Kiss, Feral Weapons, Vicissitude, The Unfettered Heart, Ghost in the Machine, and many many many others disciplines powers that are very very bad if you use the system RAW.

Cat's Grace is just niche, it's fun for fighting atop moving cars or running along power cables; the Draughts are indeed underpowered, so I do change them; Defy Bane protects you from aggravated, which is otherwise a bitch to heal, I don't see the issue with it; Oblivion and Blood Sorcery are far too ample for me to get into how I like them (with some caveats); Sense the Beast is one of the best Level 1 powers (See if someone is a vampire/werewolf and get a hostility level is really useful, I used it constantly when I had a character with Animalism); Bond Famulus saves up on a lot of blood and synergizes with the more animalism you have; Feral Weapons is really strong raw so I think this is just because it no longer deals Aggravated; Ghost in the Machine applies Obfuscate to electronic devices, how is it weak??

I could go on about most of the other powers.

Considering that in V5, RAW, you get a single point of XP per session, it might not be as achievable as you think.... Unless you and your party play every day or your ST uses houserule and gives more XP . Also, calling elders powers unobtainable in past editions is exaggerating and you know it.

You get one more XP point when a story finishes, and there is also a suggestion of 2 xp points for faster improvement. But yeah, most STs do give more.

It is not an exaggeration, in V5 it requires some XP banking, previously it was XP banking and multiple instances of diablerie.

[monteparnas]

Isn't that more an issue witn execution rather than intent?

Yes and no.

Mostly yes. Regardless of the merit of the 6+ levels as a mechanic, the lack of forethought on their design is a big part of what made them bad. That's by itself a solvable problem, but still would mean, in the terms of the thread's question, that we don't miss the current list of powers, so even if you miss the concept, there are very few actual powers to miss from them on V5 (not going into the matter of V5 disciplines being poorly made, as true or not that's another question).

But from a design perspective, it simply isn't a good approach to the concept. The thing is, when you have ranked powers you need to have a rough idea of what should and shouldn't be possible at each rank, of what attaining each one means for the game, so you can have a clear design goal for the powers and a consistent parameter to measure them.

This is true regardless if you're talking 5 Dots Disciplines or 9 Spell Levels, but the more ranks you have to fill, the harder it becomes to measure this, and in the end WoD games usually used an actual 5-rank system from beginner to mastery. That means a 5 level power already represents conceptual mastery. What do you do after mastery?

It is this conceptual uncertainty that's the problem with treating elder powers as a mere continuation of the ladder, and makes this design decision a poor one. The Devotion/Amalgam approach let you add effects to a new power, increase potency and whatnot based on requisites, using those additions as a basis for the cost/requisites, but without occupying a specific conceptual level. You can add Gen or Blood Potency as a requisite if you want, solidifying a power's place as Elder-only, while having a more versatile system and without bringing up all the design problems of a continuation on the ladder.

Another approach already mentioned here is the Earthbound one, which is pretty neat even if the original execution has its problems. You can give Elders another system to modify parameters for their powers, so they can tweak range, area, intensity, targets, overcome usual limitations and so on, without that taking space in the usual ladder. While such a system would already be a better option as a developer tool for 6+ powers, it can also simply be given directly to the characters as Demon did with the Earthbound. Again, you give the Elders the edge you want, just not with an extremely tricky and flawed mechanic.

[Kakost]

Yes and no.

Mostly yes. Regardless of the merit of the 6+ levels as a mechanic, the lack of forethought on their design is a big part of what made them bad. That's by itself a solvable problem, but still would mean, in the terms of the thread's question, that we don't miss the current list of powers, so even if you miss the concept, there are very few actual powers to miss from them on V5 (not going into the matter of V5 disciplines being poorly made, as true or not that's another question).

But from a design perspective, it simply isn't a good approach to the concept. The thing is, when you have ranked powers you need to have a rough idea of what should and shouldn't be possible at each rank, of what attaining each one means for the game, so you can have a clear design goal for the powers and a consistent parameter to measure them.

This is true regardless if you're talking 5 Dots Disciplines or 9 Spell Levels, but the more ranks you have to fill, the harder it becomes to measure this, and in the end WoD games usually used an actual 5-rank system from beginner to mastery. That means a 5 level power already represents conceptual mastery. What do you do after mastery?

It is this conceptual uncertainty that's the problem with treating elder powers as a mere continuation of the ladder, and makes this design decision a poor one. The Devotion/Amalgam approach let you add effects to a new power, increase potency and whatnot based on requisites, using those additions as a basis for the cost/requisites, but without occupying a specific conceptual level. You can add Gen or Blood Potency as a requisite if you want, solidifying a power's place as Elder-only, while having a more versatile system and without bringing up all the design problems of a continuation on the ladder.

Another approach already mentioned here is the Earthbound one, which is pretty neat even if the original execution has its problems. You can give Elders another system to modify parameters for their powers, so they can tweak range, area, intensity, targets, overcome usual limitations and so on, without that taking space in the usual ladder. While such a system would already be a better option as a developer tool for 6+ powers, it can also simply be given directly to the characters as Demon did with the Earthbound. Again, you give the Elders the edge you want, just not with an extremely tricky and flawed mechanic.

Perfect. Those 6-9(10) powers were utterly flawed, because they were based on broken mechanics. I didnt even initially entered the merits/flaws of V5, because regardless of that, those powers were badly designed to begin with. To understand why, one needs simply to compare with the Mage Masters of the Art and their largely ignored and universally hated 6-9 Spheres with ridiculous stuff such as throwing Realms with Forces 8, turning Mage into some Marvel Galactus stuff.

Also, I dont like this idea of turning vampire into the "Justice League". And the BEST game I personally ever played, and I was a PC not the ST, was our "Jihad Game", upon which we all played as 4th gens from the Second City, and we were older than almost ALL official vamps ever published, aside from the Antes thenselves and a few others - we met Cain and even the Second Gens, just so you can understand the level of power Im describing here. And this table lasted for YEARS. And we had interins of centuries at a time. My 4th gen had lvl 10 disciplines and attributes (I became a Humanity 10 sort of monk, I was a Setite who turned Osiris and eventually abandoned them too and became a legendary hermit... Anyway, it's a huge story, but it was awesome). Our sheets looked as if someone dropped a gallon of ink on it.

The power level was so utterly ridiculous that we didnt actually played the Jihad... We just did things for fun, because there was nothing that could actually threaten us - not even the antes themselves, at least not directly.

And despite that, I still say that those powers are totally duh.

Also, I dont particularly enjoy many of the effects of those. I had for instance Serpentis 6, which allowed me to have a "Divine Form". So, mine was an angelic being with flamming eyes and flamming wings.

Nothing could be more "un-vampiric" than that. But that was hardly the only thing completely off from the ideas of a vampire. Particularly for Metamorphosis, Vicissitude, Thaumaturgy and others, there were many stuff that were completely bonkers to consider for a vampire, amd that turned vampires more into weird magical fairies than into the bloodsucking undead of legends.

That's of course my own personal taste. I understand that some people might miss that, and I think that V5 considerations are a whole different can of worms, but I do prefer some different mechanics for those - and preferably, with parameters that at least try to limit the number of ridiculous, such as turning into a mini Sun or any other such silly.

[Heavy Arms]

While perhaps a bit repetitive, it's a design problem and not just an execution problem because the very design is a poor fit for the system.

On the "mastery" side of things, consider how the oWoD defined dots for Attributes and Abilities, and how people frequently struggle to really role-play 6+ dots in them rather than just playing them as 5s, but you get more dice. While we have a lot of cultural toucstones for, say, Strength 6, what does Wits 6 look like? If Sherlock Holmes is already the example of Investigation 5, what detective do you look to for what Investigation 7 looks like?

In the CofD, moving everything to dice modifiers as the baseline helps a lot here. "5" isn't really mastery as Merits, Specialties, and equipment can all build off that. A doctor with just Medicine 5 might be House from the show of that name, but a character with Medicine 3, a specialty in surgery, the Area of Expertise Merit (among others), and a fully equipped modern surgical suite is looking at having +9 or +10 dice to their surgery rolls instead of the "master's" +5 doing surgery on their own with the basic tools needed. There's more conceptual space for what 6+ "looks like," since you can say, "this character is so supernaturally good stealth that he can hide wearing a neon safety vest as well as someone wearing the best camouflage can." Since the stats can actually show that directly.

The WoD systems aren't really built with any true way to explain a lot of this, so the design framework isn't there for 6+ stuff in general, and powers only make it worse because executing them is significantly harder when they do a hell of a lot more than +1 die per dot.

[Kakost]

While perhaps a bit repetitive, it's a design problem and not just an execution problem because the very design is a poor fit for the system.

On the "mastery" side of things, consider how the oWoD defined dots for Attributes and Abilities, and how people frequently struggle to really role-play 6+ dots in them rather than just playing them as 5s, but you get more dice. While we have a lot of cultural toucstones for, say, Strength 6, what does Wits 6 look like? If Sherlock Holmes is already the example of Investigation 5, what detective do you look to for what Investigation 7 looks like?

In the CofD, moving everything to dice modifiers as the baseline helps a lot here. "5" isn't really mastery as Merits, Specialties, and equipment can all build off that. A doctor with just Medicine 5 might be House from the show of that name, but a character with Medicine 3, a specialty in surgery, the Area of Expertise Merit (among others), and a fully equipped modern surgical suite is looking at having +9 or +10 dice to their surgery rolls instead of the "master's" +5 doing surgery on their own with the basic tools needed. There's more conceptual space for what 6+ "looks like," since you can say, "this character is so supernaturally good stealth that he can hide wearing a neon safety vest as well as someone wearing the best camouflage can." Since the stats can actually show that directly.

The WoD systems aren't really built with any true way to explain a lot of this, so the design framework isn't there for 6+ stuff in general, and powers only make it worse because executing them is significantly harder when they do a hell of a lot more than +1 die per dot.

Even worse than for powers or even attributes, it's for knowledge. What does "Camarilla Knowledge" 9 means? What is Occultism 8? Science 7? Does Science 9 means that you are aware of scientific facts that will only ever be discovered in the century 25? And what the hell could Computer 8 possibly mean?

Overall, the entire "traits above 5" was a bad idea.

[Lysander]

Even worse than for powers or even attributes, it's for knowledge. What does "Camarilla Knowledge" 9 means?

Good question and maybe it covers that you know all the dirty secrets of the sect and you know who is really running the show and have a strong idea what there future plans are.

What is Occultism 8?

I just took that you know almost every little detail of secret knowledge from before recorded history. That is my two bits with the two subjects above.

Science 7? Does Science 9 means that you are aware of scientific facts that will only ever be discovered in the century 25?

That is much harder to figure out and does that mean know things that folks Neil De Tyson, Bill Nye and other top minds haven't learned?

And what the hell could Computer 8 possibly mean?

Overall, the entire "traits above 5" was a bad idea.

I agree on how do you roleplay someone who has a charisma rating of 9?

[Aleph]

To be fair, on that end Traits from 1 to 5 ain't that great either...

The whole "Brawl 5 it's Bruce Lee" it's flawed in and of itself. To figth like "a Bruce Lee" in the simulation one needs to have far more than that. Like, get Evasion/Athletics, Atributes, maybe a Merit or two.

I often find those descriptors more of a hurdle than a help. They generate a lot of false expectations when you start the game.

I agree on how do you roleplay someone who has a charisma rating of 9?

Heck, tell me how do you roleplay someone with a Charisma of 3-4. I relly almost entirely on "suspencion of disbelief" for that one, I must admit :P . Sometimes I need to remind the ST that my PC prob. doesn't suck as much as I do...

:P

That's not the problem. Ultimately, a dude with "10 bonus dice" or "Supernal Mastery Background", or whatever, on Charisma-related-rolls, it's also supernaturally charismatic (maybe more than "9"), and needs to be interpreted that way.

I don't think this is a good reasoning: if that's the case then we're banning ourselves from roleplaying supernaturaly intelligent beings, or even supernatural beings at all (how do you interpret the Beast if you don't have one?, how do you know how Fae will react if they're supposed to be "alien" and "unpredictable"?).

---

Just for the reccord: I'm not denying there's a problem with how og Vampire tacked the scales. I just think it doesn't have that much to do with the descriptors and "impossible roleplaying", and more to do with how ALL the stuff intermingles.

Like how, say, low gens have "broken the limmiter" on ALL ends. Even in stuff they have no rigth to be Super at, like the aforementioned "25 years into the future" tech that, apparently, only Elders have - because "Sci-Fy" it's the first thing one thinks about when imagining an Elder Vampire :P.

Or like how, Jeff Bezos, assuming he's human, has Resources 5 - not because that's the max, but because he doesn't have thick enough blood to have more than 5 on Resources. While a 7th gen evidently can reach 6 on that end. Because that's how Economy works, apparently, Resources just vanishes from your portfolio, if you try to amass more than what your Generation would allow :P

[blailton]

Cat's Grace is just niche, it's fun for fighting atop moving cars or running along power cables;

I insist: It's weak.

First: I can't remember the last time I saw a situation where the ST asked a character to perform a balance check. In past editions, this discipline was a three-point merit (granted, it didn't give automatic success) to give you an idea of how weak it is.

Second: remember that this discipline does not reduce the character's weight, and the text is very clear that the place you are passing through has to support your weight. I don't know if pole wires can handle it, but you have to climb the pole first, in order to climb you'll need to do an athletics check... That is, ultimately you'll need to pass the dice test anyway .

Third: It doesn't look like a heretical vampiric power to me. You bending metal bars with your hands feels like something that indisputably proves you to be a vampire; However, Cats Grace is something that can be imitated by humans, so it seems pretty disappointing. It feels more like a skill than a POWER. Domination on the first level allows you to erase memories, while Celerity allows you to do circus arts...

Nitpick: What does Balance have to do with Celeriy? I understand that both can be covered by a broad umbrella, but they are certainly different things. I don't think Cats Grace should be assigned as a power in a discipline that concerns speed.

the Draughts are indeed underpowered, so I do change them;

Worse than underpowered. It's useless.

Even if you're the type of vampire who has ghouls to do the work for you, hardly giving them the ability to balance themselves and +2 dice on non-combat dexterity actions is something that will make a difference to advance your immortal agenda. Keep in mind that this is a level 4 discipline (!), for rubbing salt into the wound.

Hope this helped you understand why people think v5 disciplines are weak then.

Defy Bane protects you from aggravated, which is otherwise a bitch to heal, I don't see the issue with it;

The problem is the SYSTEM part of the discipline. The PC will convert ONE point of agg. damage, IF s/he play his/her cards right.

Oblivion and Blood Sorcery are far too ample for me to get into how I like them (with some caveats);

Both are trash. Oblivion limits involving the distance at which it can be used. If you follow the rules, it's about two meters or three. Using tentacles to attack is a subpar strategy compared to simply using Potence and some weapon. Using tentacles to attack multiple opponents is a bad decision, flat and simple. If you have an ST that ignores the rules most of the time and simply lets you play tricks with your shadows, the discipline becomes useful and versatile. However, following the raw rules discipline becomes a big waste of xp.

Blood Sorcery. A discipline that allows you to create an acid that doesn't corrode organic matter, and only with MANY successes allows you to melt a handcuff. Temporarily increase Blood Potency, and only has significant chances of helping you if the PC has Blood Potency 1; Rituals that are completely useless if ST uses RAW rules; Off the top of my head I can think of Illuminate the Trail of Prey, the ritual that requires six successes on a roll consisting of skill and attribute that a Tremere is unlikely to have.

Sense the Beast is one of the best Level 1 powers (See if someone is a vampire/werewolf and get a hostility level is really useful, I used it constantly when I had a character with Animalism);

It was a 3 point merit in prior editions. Which is why some people may read and not be impressed by the power, and find it weak.

Bond Famulus saves up on a lot of blood and synergizes with the more animalism you have;

The super-power to have a pet.

Feral Weapons is really strong raw so I think this is just because it no longer deals Aggravated;

"Just because"... Exactly. Apparently, you already have an idea why people find this weak.
Two fangs in the neck will do aggravated damage, but ripping the guts out of the vampire's belly will do superficial damage.

Ghost in the Machine applies Obfuscate to electronic devices, how is it weak??

Because it was a 3 points merit in v20. "False reflection".

I could go on about most of the other powers.

So could I.

and there is also a suggestion of 2 xp points for faster improvement. But yeah, most STs do give more.

Must be a errata thing.

It is not an exaggeration,

Yes it is.

in V5 it requires some XP banking, previously it was XP banking and multiple instances of diablerie.

"Some XP banking"? In the game the player receive 1XP + 1XP per story completed (I'm considering RAW as my goal is not to attack how you and your group play the game at your table)? The player have to sit and wait, not evolving her discipline at all for IDK how many IRL months before it hitting the level 5. That isn't "some xp banking" this is drag forever.

previously it was XP banking and multiple instances of diablerie.

Not multiple instances of diablerie. One, and only one, diablerie. Just start in the eighth generation, put a dot in Mentor, and done. You diablerize your sire (necessarily a seventh generation vampire). You can start with a discipline at level 5 raw. Now, being a seventh generation vampire, you only need to spend 25 xp points to evolve your discipline from 5 to 6. 25 xp is something you can get in eight sessions (or less, depending on the stories completed, so less xp banking than v5 by a large margin), and then you get the power to cause earthquakes (Animalism 6), something not even elders in v5 can accomplish without homebrew.

[blailton]

As someone who has run a fair number of elder campaigns in VtM, yes, I miss them, but that goes into how narrow the range of V5 disciplines are, as others have already touched on.

Otherwise, janky though they might have been, they did an overall useful enough job at making the players feel old and potent.

I'm planning a v20 table where the players are Archons. Do you have any tips gained from experience on how to proceed with Elder Campaign?

[blailton]

To approach it from a different angle is their any actual reason they shouldn't exist? How does their absence benifit the game?

My hypothesis is that this makes it easier for series, movies, (less money on special effects if the vampire's powers are limited to zooming in on the vampire's eyes to show that he is hypnotizing) and games (where the powers are little things that affect 2/3 meters around the vampire). It also makes it more comfortable for the ST to have NPCS that can do all sorts of crazy things, while PCS don't, for railroad/plothook. It also makes the underdog street level thing easier. It also makes it easier for LARPS. And for those… shows… that are streamed where being a vampire is mostly about wearing a stylish outfit and sassyng one-liners.

[Kakost]

I agree on how do you roleplay someone who has a charisma rating of 9?

Hehehe, I do have some (limited) insights on that because... Well, my magic Setite/Osiris did indeed have Charisma 9 and Manipulation 9. I was jockling called by the other players as "Parthacos-of-many-names". Parthacos was the name of my character, but initially I always presented myself with a false name to every different person I met. Oh, I also had Intelligence 9.

Let me give you an example: I went to "Russia" (it was 5.000 years ago, so no "Russia" yet. The territory of it) to meet Baba Yaga. Why? Because I wanted to. Because that's what my char did (there is a reasoning behind that behavior thou).

Did Baba Yaga summarily destroyed me? Nope.

I actually became her friend!

And I would come and visit her from time to time if you wanna know. How did I treated her?

"Baba Yaga, my dear! You're looking absolutely amazing today! I swear, each passing year you are more gorgeous my darling! You must tell me your secret for your beauty dear! So, what kind of no good have you been up to since the last time we met?"

Now, obviously she knew I was lying - this was not an attempt at deception, but rather at lightening the humor. And I would talk to her in a jockingly and humurous manner, something that no other creature ever would dare do. And this would come as a bolt of fresh air to her.

The way I would did it when dealing to everybody was managing a good dose oh humor but with respect, intelligence and knowing what and how to say.

For instance, I met Kali in India (which in our table was a 4th gen Tzimisce) and I presented myself to her, and she said she would destroy me if I ever returned, and she would only tolerate me that one time.

So, I answered to her that I would both return many times over when I pleased, and she would not only not destroy me, but she would welcome me.

She immediatly said "how dare you?", and I said "you can either destroy me right now, no questions asked, or you can wait for me to explain, and perhaps learn something that might be useful. And you can still destroy me after I talk, so hearing me out is a win win".

So I told her "the reason why I'll be always welcomed at your cort is because Im going to manipulate you".

She answered "you truly have some nerve"

And I said "Please, let me continue. I understand why such a statement might feel as an offensive, but I promisse you it isnt. The problem is in thinking that "manipulation" means deceiving, tricking, but that's just one small tool in the bag of manipulation. In fact, manipulation is far broader than that. When a farmer plants a seed, he is manipulating the Earth. When an enlightned ruler conducts his people to peace and prosperity, he is manipulating society".

"You can use lies and deception, but in the long run, those are poor tools. Because once you become marked as a deceiptful person by others, that will forever haunt you. And, althought deception may be good for short term gains, our immortal lives are too long for changing short term gains over longer benefits".

"Therefore, Im going to manipulate you with the truth - meaning, Im going to convince you to always welcome my presence".

"How will I do that? Very simple. Im going to give you something invaluable".

"No, I do not have crude power; no special magic, or treasure, nor even crucial information."

"I dont play the Jihad. That's in fact why Im here. I need you and the members of your court to spread this. For such, I need to convince you and your court - therefore, manipulate you, that Im both harmless and trustworthy, which is why I bring my intentions up front. And that's also why I do this on every court."

"And why do I do this? Out of my kind heart? No. Out of self interest. Not playing the Jihad is how I keep myself safe. But for that, I need every other cainite to agree to let me not play it. And for that, I need to become harmless. Which is why I cant have anyone denying me passage."

"Im aware thou that all other cainites still play the Jihad, including thee mighty Kali, and wont just accept me freely."

"The Jihad is ultimately, a fight for survival among the immortals. Accumulating power and knonledge are thus just tools for that purpose".

"NOT accumulating those is MY strategy of survival, which vastly differ from yours. Do notice however, the wisdom in my words, and how they reinforce themselves - the more harmless I make myself to be, the less prone to be molested I become, which in turn further incentivize myself to not seek any sort of power and thus be even more harmless".

"I have therefore developed the tool that best serves my self preservation purpose: Wisdom".

"And it is that wisdom, which I freely offer to anyone willing to listen, that I offer to you as payment for accepting me. Wisdom to analyze each situation in a dispassionate way and come to the most optimal conclusion; just take a minute to considerate, and you'll come to the conclusion that wisdom can be a powerful auxiliary tool".

And with that, I became a legendary hermit elder. That's why I would visit Baba Yaga, Carthage, Rome or anywhere else.

Man 9, Char 9, Int 9. I managed to achieve universal respect. So much so that I would even talk to the Baali.

[Heavy Arms]

To be fair, on that end Traits from 1 to 5 ain't that great either...

I think the "implementation" argument applies more here. The 1-5 model works fine even if it took a very long time for the descriptions to get refined to better communicate to players what ratings mean narratively and mechanically.

The whole "Brawl 5 it's Bruce Lee" it's flawed in and of itself.

I mean, what book just says that? The books generally describe a generic (0) 1 - 5 scale, a scale specific to the Trait category, and then gives examples on top of that for each instance. V20 gives a lot more context to what Brawl 5 means that this acknowledges.

That's not the problem. Ultimately, a dude with "10 bonus dice" or "Supernal Mastery Background", or whatever, on Charisma-related-rolls, it's also supernaturally charismatic (maybe more than "9"), and needs to be interpreted that way.

The problem with 6+ in most traits is a frame of reference, not that it's supernatural. If you need to be supernatural to have Charisma 6, of course it's supernatural on some level because it's superhuman. The problem is there's no frame of reference on what 6, 7, 8 and 9 all mean.beyond "+1 die, and narratively more awesome." We know what "power" based superhuman Charisma looks like: the Presence Discipline. Playing superhuman Charisma when it's power based is much easier because the power describes a frame of reference.

This also reminds me of the Background Enhancement system from Adventure! 1e: instead of just continuing to try to scale up Backgrounds past 5, "6" was some form of, "you have officially transitioned from 'can I use this advantage to solve a problem if I do it right' to 'if this advantage applies to this problem, you solve it.'" There's Resources 5, where you're extremely wealthy but there's limitation on what that can accomplish, and then there's Wealth Beyond Measure, where you're officially in Batman territory and money is (one of) your superpower(s). You get described as vague words for obscenely wealthy that really lose all meaning, and if you want a high-tech rocket car with military grade weapons and armor, you get it.

I don't think this is a good reasoning: if that's the case then we're banning ourselves from roleplaying supernaturaly intelligent beings, or even supernatural beings at all (how do you interpret the Beast if you don't have one?, how do you know how Fae will react if they're supposed to be "alien" and "unpredictable"?).

Except we're not banning that. We're saying that modeling it by moving the 1-5 scale to a 1-9 scale doesn't handle that well. Speaking of Adventure!, Trinity 2e is a system designed for playing superhumans As it was designed from the ground up with the idea that it needs to be able to model normal people with no special powers at all, all the way to Superman or Reed Richards, it uses a completely different method of handling how to represent that, and while Scion 2e and TC 2e struggled a bit with communicating the Storypath system in places, they're way more effective at this because they do things that work way better than "bigger numbers with vague descriptors."

Or like how, Jeff Bezos, assuming he's human, has Resources 5 - not because that's the max, but because he doesn't have thick enough blood to have more than 5 on Resources. While a 7th gen evidently can reach 6 on that end. Because that's how Economy works, apparently, Resources just vanishes from your portfolio, if you try to amass more than what your Generation would allow :P

Backgrounds going to 6+ is an optional rule in VtM, which is why it's funky when it interacts with the Generation limits. Mage, where Backgrounds at 6+ are corebook material in M20, directly states that guys like Bezos are in the 6+ area of the scale. If you use 6+ Backgrounds in VtM, you should follow Mage and not have it be capped by Generation (like other default 1-10 scale traits like Humainty/Path and Willpower).

[Aleph]

I think the "implementation" argument applies more here. The 1-5 model works fine even if it took a very long time for the descriptions to get refined to better communicate to players what ratings mean narratively and mechanically.

Sure, I was talking about the descriptors there.

I mean, what book just says that? The books generally describe a generic (0) 1 - 5 scale, a scale specific to the Trait category, and then gives examples on top of that for each instance. V20 gives a lot more context to what Brawl 5 means that this acknowledges.

I distinctly remember worse stuff than that. Like one book saying you were able to "knock out two guys in one move" with Brawl 5, or something like that.

But, as said, this is mostly a communication issue, not an issue of the system itself.

Except we're not banning that. We're saying that modeling it by moving the 1-5 scale to a 1-9 scale doesn't handle that well. Speaking of Adventure!, Trinity 2e is a system designed for playing superhumans As it was designed from the ground up with the idea that it needs to be able to model normal people with no special powers at all, all the way to Superman or Reed Richards, it uses a completely different method of handling how to represent that, and while Scion 2e and TC 2e struggled a bit with communicating the Storypath system in places, they're way more effective at this because they do things that work way better than "bigger numbers with vague descriptors."

I was answering to a very specific reasoning. In my comment there's a quote. I don't think it's fair to say that Attributes or Skills at levels 9 cannot be interpreted or understood.

If anything, those systems prove that they can, they're just better at communicating "how" than oWoD system, and at giving mechanics that allow to feel *trully* supernatural (having 4 extra dice it's...not that impressive, really. Certainly not as impressive as some of the fluff would imply that it should be)

I also don't think V5 scale of 1 to 5 does this "better". What does it mean to have Int 9?, well then, what does it "mean" having a 4 bonus dice surge to Int when you have 5?. Why does a bonus gets a pass on having to explain what it means, but a static value doesn't?

Backgrounds going to 6+ is an optional rule in VtM, which is why it's funky when it interacts with the Generation limits. Mage, where Backgrounds at 6+ are corebook material in M20, directly states that guys like Bezos are in the 6+ area of the scale. If you use 6+ Backgrounds in VtM, you should follow Mage and not have it be capped by Generation (like other default 1-10 scale traits like Humainty/Path and Willpower).

Absolutely.

Also, let's remember that WW made the mistake of providing a concrete numeric value for the amount of wealth allowed at each level, including 5, and that number of dollars was easy to overcome to such an extent that the "5" suddenly meant nothing. Thus they had to drop that value and go with a narrative "value" instead.

[MarkK]

I'm planning a v20 table where the players are Archons. Do you have any tips gained from experience on how to proceed with Elder Campaign?

Backstories become important to convey a sense of that this is an older character, shaped by vaster forces. You don't need to demand people write you novels itemized to the year, but depending on how old these characters are, it is worth asking stuff like how they reacted or didn't to given historical events, either from actual history, or something from whatever vampire related plot you're using, to help them get a sense of their characters (and for you to get that sense as well). Some sense of how they spent their past gives you hooks for what to do with their present.

Also something often looked over is that elder games help a bit with giving the group some encouragement to have pre existing ties instead of "band of strangers thrown together by fate". If they've been alive for a while, encourage the idea that they've run into each other before in meaningful ways and established opinions of each other. The idea that they are people who can even semi rely on each other is a huge thing in the games that play out on elder levels, and is perhaps something that developed over time. I've found players have had fun with the question of "so how did you guys show up in each other's history?"

Basically the thing you're looking for that will help an elder game feel like more than "Vampires with more dots" is a sense of Establishment. I don't mean as in your pcs Are The Establishment (though as archons, I mean, they are), I mean as in they should feel established. Like there is a weight and resonance to their place in the world, one they have spent time forming out. They have been on great journeys and personal arcs, known considerable successes and failures. They have ties to other characters and forces in the world, rivalries, enmities and even the rare ally. How has that shaped how they interact with the world? How currently are they reaching out at it? What goals feel all the more painfully out of reach despite all their potency? What regrets or dreams do they carry across the ages beyond human experience?

Relatedly, don't be reluctant to let the players feel their power/influence. Almost games are at least to some degree about keeping your players enjoyably challenged, and the scale of challenge goes up with their power. But that can be a bit of a trap where thus they're always facing scaled up issues, and don't thus necessarily feel like they're living up to their own hype. Give them the occasional fight or social situation they can just assert themselves in, just something to remind how the majority of the kindred world dreads an archon, and here they are in a group. Maybe give each of them an introductory scene or narrative or something that sums up the coolness and heft of them. It can make it all the more striking/impactful when they instead face circumstances where their power and position is barely helping them get by, or even of no use entirely. (Don't overdo any of these things though).

Oh, and the rules of every single edition of Vampire are in their own special way, janky, and elder games use more of those rules than most. Definitely talk out with your players beforehand what you do and don't want to use, and also try and get people okay with the idea that if something ends up being disastrous in play, it can be revisited for being redone.

Edit: Alternatively if you're more noting you're running a one shot or con game or some such, ignore like the lot of this, this is more for an ongoing campaign advice *cough*

[SetiteFriend]

I insist: It's weak.

First: I can't remember the last time I saw a situation where the ST asked a character to perform a balance check. In past editions, this discipline was a three-point merit (granted, it didn't give automatic success) to give you an idea of how weak it is.

Second: remember that this discipline does not reduce the character's weight, and the text is very clear that the place you are passing through has to support your weight. I don't know if pole wires can handle it, but you have to climb the pole first, in order to climb you'll need to do an athletics check... That is, ultimately you'll need to pass the dice test anyway .

Third: It doesn't look like a heretical vampiric power to me. You bending metal bars with your hands feels like something that indisputably proves you to be a vampire; However, Cats Grace is something that can be imitated by humans, so it seems pretty disappointing. It feels more like a skill than a POWER. Domination on the first level allows you to erase memories, while Celerity allows you to do circus arts...

Nitpick: What does Balance have to do with Celeriy? I understand that both can be covered by a broad umbrella, but they are certainly different things. I don't think Cats Grace should be assigned as a power in a discipline that concerns speed.

Again it's a niche power, that synergizes with things like Soaring Leap and Weight of the Feather. If you want something Broadly applicable, take Rapid Reflexes.

Plus, it's an automatic success on any roll to keep your balance, which in turn means you can do a lot of crazy shit.

Worse than underpowered. It's useless.

Even if you're the type of vampire who has ghouls to do the work for you, hardly giving them the ability to balance themselves and +2 dice on non-combat dexterity actions is something that will make a difference to advance your immortal agenda. Keep in mind that this is a level 4 discipline (!), for rubbing salt into the wound.

Hope this helped you understand why people think v5 disciplines are weak then.

I am well aware that some powers aren't the best. Claiming the disciplines in general are underpowered is just wrong.

The problem is the SYSTEM part of the discipline. The PC will convert ONE point of agg. damage, IF s/he play his/her cards right.

I highly recommend you read the power (again?). Or tell me how you came to that answer, as it converts at minimum, 3 points.

Both are trash. Oblivion limits involving the distance at which it can be used. If you follow the rules, it's about two meters or three. Using tentacles to attack is a subpar strategy compared to simply using Potence and some weapon. Using tentacles to attack multiple opponents is a bad decision, flat and simple. If you have an ST that ignores the rules most of the time and simply lets you play tricks with your shadows, the discipline becomes useful and versatile. However, following the raw rules discipline becomes a big waste of xp.

Tentacles have a minimum length of 4 meters, up to a max of 10, and you summon them from somewhere in line of sight, so distance isn't a big issue. Arms just aren't the solution to all combat, they are great when you have an advantaged or hidden position, or you don't want (or are unable) to get closer to the attacker.

Blood Sorcery. A discipline that allows you to create an acid that doesn't corrode organic matter, and only with MANY successes allows you to melt a handcuff.

With time and Vitae spent, not successes, there are no rolls involved. The vitae costs also aren't high, when you consider that you get re-rolls on Level 1 powers by default.

Temporarily increase Blood Potency, and only has significant chances of helping you if the PC has Blood Potency 1;

The increased difficulty from higher BP is partially offset by the dice bonus you get from BP. Getting BP 2 is great for the dice bonus and healing, BP 3 for Blood Surge and Rouse rerolls, and so on.

Rituals that are completely useless if ST uses RAW rules; Off the top of my head I can think of Illuminate the Trail of Prey, the ritual that requires six successes on a roll consisting of skill and attribute that a Tremere is unlikely to have.

It's 6 successes minus the margin on the roll to follow the trail. Also, Blood Sorcery isn't a Tremere exclusivity and isn't designed solely around the Tremere stereotype.

It was a 3 point merit in prior editions. Which is why some people may read and not be impressed by the power, and find it weak.

Ah, the very consistent and widely praised merits of old editions.

The super-power to have a pet.

A magically enhanced pet that allows you to use most of your powers for free.

"Just because"... Exactly. Apparently, you already have an idea why people find this weak.
Two fangs in the neck will do aggravated damage, but ripping the guts out of the vampire's belly will do superficial damage.

Of course I have an idea of why, it is always the same spurious edition comparisons that judges stuff in a vacum and not the conjuncture of the new rules.

Aggravated damage to vampire is very rare aside from banes, fangs being the only widely available way, and it deals a flat amount, scaling aggravated damage being reserved for high level powers and the like.

Because it was a 3 points merit in v20. "False reflection".

A Nosferatu exclusive merit (other clans have obfuscate too), that isn't as good as the power.

Must be a errata thing.

It is not, none of the erratas touched it.

Yes it is.

"Some XP banking"? In the game the player receive 1XP + 1XP per story completed (I'm considering RAW as my goal is not to attack how you and your group play the game at your table)? The player have to sit and wait, not evolving her discipline at all for IDK how many IRL months before it hitting the level 5. That isn't "some xp banking" this is drag forever.

It's not easily achievable by any means under normal rules, and it's not supposed to be too, Level 5s are powerful. A diablerie can hasten it though.

Not multiple instances of diablerie. One, and only one, diablerie. Just start in the eighth generation, put a dot in Mentor, and done. You diablerize your sire (necessarily a seventh generation vampire). You can start with a discipline at level 5 raw. Now, being a seventh generation vampire, you only need to spend 25 xp points to evolve your discipline from 5 to 6. 25 xp is something you can get in eight sessions (or less, depending on the stories completed, so less xp banking than v5 by a large margin), and then you get the power to cause earthquakes (Animalism 6), something not even elders in v5 can accomplish without homebrew.

If you powergame and build your character around getting elder powers, you can get them. If not, tough luck.