(V5) Do we really miss high-level Disciplines?

[blailton]

Backstories become important to convey a sense of that this is an older character, shaped by vaster forces. You don't need to demand people write you novels itemized to the year, but depending on how old these characters are, it is worth asking stuff like how they reacted or didn't to given historical events, either from actual history, or something from whatever vampire related plot you're using, to help them get a sense of their characters (and for you to get that sense as well). Some sense of how they spent their past gives you hooks for what to do with their present.

Also something often looked over is that elder games help a bit with giving the group some encouragement to have pre existing ties instead of "band of strangers thrown together by fate". If they've been alive for a while, encourage the idea that they've run into each other before in meaningful ways and established opinions of each other. The idea that they are people who can even semi rely on each other is a huge thing in the games that play out on elder levels, and is perhaps something that developed over time. I've found players have had fun with the question of "so how did you guys show up in each other's history?"

Basically the thing you're looking for that will help an elder game feel like more than "Vampires with more dots" is a sense of Establishment. I don't mean as in your pcs Are The Establishment (though as archons, I mean, they are), I mean as in they should feel established. Like there is a weight and resonance to their place in the world, one they have spent time forming out. They have been on great journeys and personal arcs, known considerable successes and failures. They have ties to other characters and forces in the world, rivalries, enmities and even the rare ally. How has that shaped how they interact with the world? How currently are they reaching out at it? What goals feel all the more painfully out of reach despite all their potency? What regrets or dreams do they carry across the ages beyond human experience?

Relatedly, don't be reluctant to let the players feel their power/influence. Almost games are at least to some degree about keeping your players enjoyably challenged, and the scale of challenge goes up with their power. But that can be a bit of a trap where thus they're always facing scaled up issues, and don't thus necessarily feel like they're living up to their own hype. Give them the occasional fight or social situation they can just assert themselves in, just something to remind how the majority of the kindred world dreads an archon, and here they are in a group. Maybe give each of them an introductory scene or narrative or something that sums up the coolness and heft of them. It can make it all the more striking/impactful when they instead face circumstances where their power and position is barely helping them get by, or even of no use entirely. (Don't overdo any of these things though).

Oh, and the rules of every single edition of Vampire are in their own special way, janky, and elder games use more of those rules than most. Definitely talk out with your players beforehand what you do and don't want to use, and also try and get people okay with the idea that if something ends up being disastrous in play, it can be revisited for being redone.

Edit: Alternatively if you're more noting you're running a one shot or con game or some such, ignore like the lot of this, this is more for an ongoing campaign advice *cough*

No you right, it will be a campaign. I hate one shots.

Thank you very much for your comment! It helped a lot. It's very inspiring.

Something that you caught my attention, is that maybe Archons is not the best. I don't know, but whenever I read the supplements, I visualized in my mind a single Archon arriving in the city, not a group of them.
Maybe simply being an Elder game is the best, something more back to basics. What I would like is to have a PC that has as much knowledge about the world of darkness as the player. Like, imagine an NPC who has already read the game's supplements haha. Who knows what a, I don't know, a Mokolé is, and that sort of thing. A game where there is no metagame because the in-game characters have accumulated knowledge to that point. Obviously it's not a game for beginners. Maybe I can make one with archons, maybe not, still thinking about it.

Your chronicle must have been a lot of fun to play. I was struck by your final tip, to warn about possible retcons. The way things can get messy, it really is an important tip.

And the final warning that death can happen =S

[MarkK]

No you right, it will be a campaign. I hate one shots.

Thank you very much for your comment! It helped a lot. It's very inspiring.

Something that you caught my attention, is that maybe Archons is not the best. I don't know, but whenever I read the supplements, I visualized in my mind a single Archon arriving in the city, not a group of them.
Maybe simply being an Elder game is the best, something more back to basics. What I would like is to have a PC that has as much knowledge about the world of darkness as the player. Like, imagine an NPC who has already read the game's supplements haha. Who knows what a, I don't know, a Mokolé is, and that sort of thing. A game where there is no metagame because the in-game characters have accumulated knowledge to that point. Obviously it's not a game for beginners. Maybe I can make one with archons, maybe not, still thinking about it.

Your chronicle must have been a lot of fun to play. I was struck by your final tip, to warn about possible retcons. The way things can get messy, it really is an important tip.

And the final warning that death can happen =S

I would say there are any number of times where archons work together, and regular tasks that group them up, so that setup isn't impossible, it just gives them further noteworthiness as a group. I mean at the most basic level, at one point the Wolf Pack of Chicago were all archons. It really all depends what you're looking to do as an ST and the sort of campaign you want to go for. Regardless, a campaign on that scale overall that lets you play more deeply with the world though, yes. Certainly if not anything like a complete knowledge, older characters do at least tend to have experienced a fuller sense of their existence (though in some cases that may have lead to completely incorrect assumptions, if you want to play around with that kind of thing).

And Chronicles plural, I've run a few elder games at this point, of fairly widely ranging sorts.

[Asmodai]

Or like how, Jeff Bezos, assuming he's human, has Resources 5 - not because that's the max, but because he doesn't have thick enough blood to have more than 5 on Resources. While a 7th gen evidently can reach 6 on that end. Because that's how Economy works, apparently, Resources just vanishes from your portfolio, if you try to amass more than what your Generation would allow :P

While I agree with most of your post, normal people can have backgrounds above 5. At least that's what Mage and Technocracy have taught me since 1999. No idea if Backgrounds are limited in Vampire?

[Manfr]

Happy to see such a lively discussion!

I don't have many original things to add, SetiteFriend has already covered much of what I'd have said in defence of V5 Disciplines: I do think powers should be evaluate in the context of each edition separately, and I do not find V5 powers weak at all ... in the context of V5. Are they significantly weaker of those presented in V20 or in prior editions? Good Lord, yes, and rightfully so (of course, just my opinion here)!

Many powers needed to be nerfed in order to reduce "insta-kill" effects, and this was achieved both by changing the properties of Vampirism and the damage rules, and by reducing the power scale of many Disciplines: I surely do not miss the ability of a Protean 2-wielding character to annihilate the poor bastards they faced!

In fact, it seems to me the maths of this edition are particularly well-designed, perhaps taking a clue from D&D's "bounded accuracy" (a notable exception are difficulties in OPP-curated supplements, which are dramatically higher than what they should be).

I also don't think we've had a dramatic reduction of options, Blood Magic aside (and again, it needed nerfing, both at power and thematic level, at least in my opinion ... but as the Storytellers of a very optimized group of Tremere, I've seen really incredible things): in fact, powers once restricted to elders or obscure clans and bloodlines are now widely available, at least thematically. It's true that many powers are situational, but they are options, and it's not like older Disciplines were designed in only broad terms. Many 6+ powers were terribly situational, especially considering the enormous amount of XP one should invest to get there. Is it really worth to spend 30 XPs on Potence in order to craft a very nice weapon? V5 logic of Discipline trees. instead of linear progressions, gives plenty of customization options and I'm happy to meet PCs, and present them foes with, unexpected powers.

This also gives space for "retconning" older and different versions of Disciplines, such as the various 4th levels of Obtenebration that we saw floating around, as different power variants ... or even bring in powers from Requiem, considering the similiarities between the two systems.

I do concur with Heavy Arms and monteparnas that the 1-9 scale works less efficiently than the 1-5 scale: the juxtaposition seems evident, and I think that a solution like the one with Earthboundds that monteparnas suggested would be really interesting, along with fleshing out more Amalgams, following the line of Devotions, and opening up alternative power slots for high Gen / high BP elders (those are badly needed).

A small commentary on what MyWifeIsScary and others have pointed out: the logic of the game.

It's absolutely true that Vampire is a game built around the concept of Inequality: 6+ level powers would in theory serve well this theme, but I think in V5 they managed to stay true to the theme, while grounding it better (and differently). It's true that nowadays there are no things as "buildable Bloodd Gods": threats are more personal and manageable, they can be scary but a committed and clever group can take them down.

Does this clash with the theme of Inequality? No, I think it reinforces the credentials of Rebels in the setting and as PCs. Does it change the way in which Inequality is treated? Yes, sureyl. Old PCs could grasp these powers only by selling out their souls, indulging in Diablerie, or ... well, by being created as such. V5 vampires can surely choose the fast way to power, but if they choose to stay on the (very rigid and unforgiving) path of accumulating XPs, and use their brains and numbers eficiently, they can actually take on a foe. V5's Jyhad perhaps gives more hope to fledgelings: is this good or not? A matter of tastes.

BTW, a small commentary on Blood Gods: I had great fun running a Gehenna scenario with Godzillian Antes running around ... but as much as the Antes-as-Elder Gods trope works wonderfully for raiding ideas and sceneries from Call of Cthulhu, I'm not totally against the idea of the Antes being a bit more like Greek gods - superhyped versions of human flaws and interests. Makes them a bit more "usable", in a real Chronicle, and no less scary (being manipulated in a vast ring of sexual slaves that provide adoration by the Toreador Antediluvian is no better than seeing Arikel use skyscrapers as clubs in her clash with Absimillardzilla).

[monteparnas]

While I agree with most of your post, normal people can have backgrounds above 5. At least that's what Mage and Technocracy have taught me since 1999. No idea if Backgrounds are limited in Vampire?

They're limited everywhere, only Mage has rules on 6+ Backgrounds and even then only by Core in M20, before it was really a GttT niche thing.

Not that I don't like those rules. I think plenty of STs use them everywhere since GttT, I know I do, but YMMV and all that. RAW, though, it's not a thing (even in GttT it shouldn't exist in individual sheets, it was meant for pooled BGs).

[Heavy Arms]

Vampire specifically creates a strange wrinkle that the other games don't when incorporating Backgrounds at a 6+ level: the way Generation is written, is that the Trait cap applies to Backgrounds.

This is normally meaningless, because VtM doesn't default to Backgrounds going high enough to matter. But, RAW, Generation caps you maximum Background ratings unless you also rule that Backgrounds are not subject to that restriction (as I've previously detailed).

[MyWifeIsScary]

They're limited everywhere, only Mage has rules on 6+ Backgrounds and even then only by Core in M20, before it was really a GttT niche thing.
.

Hey, someone with 5 dots of generation can easily look for a 6th...
V20 core rules do actually have rules for Domain well beyond the 10th dot. The 5 dot background limit is for character generation and a few supernatural backgrounds that are limited to 5 dots (these don't come up in vampire). Personally, I can't imagine an ST exploding a retainer or Ally at random everytime someone tries to make their 6th ghoul or powerful friend. IRL the difference between "So rich a magazine will talk about it" and "top 10 billionaire" is monumental; Infact, if we assume that 1 dot is minimum wage in a developed nation and we assume we multiply that by however many dots we got IE 1,2,6,24,120... we have an amount of money that pretty accurately matches the descritions of 1-5 resources and yet we still can't get into the top 10 with 10 dots.

V5 Disciplines: I do think powers should be evaluate in the context of each edition separately, and I do not find V5 powers weak at all ... in the context of V5. Are they significantly weaker of those presented in V20 or in prior editions? Good Lord, yes, and rightfully so (of course, just my opinion here)!

The thing with V5 disciplines being so weak is that it endangers the masquerade and the history of the world. The latter is pretty easy to explain: Methuselahs like Helena aren't going to be having the High level conflict they once had. But The masquerade itself is sus in V5. I'm not sure what came first: the Vampires became weaker so the masquerade became vulnerable, or the writers wanted the masquerade weaker so they had vampires become vulnerable. In any case, weakening masquerade covering powers like Dominate and Obfuscate doesn't have good implications for the setting while making other powers like Potence or celerity less practical and more flashy doesn't help either. Weakened powers+ Messy crits + utterly incompetent government= wondering how any of this ever worked in the first place.

[monteparnas]

The thing with V5 disciplines being so weak is that it endangers the masquerade and the history of the world. The latter is pretty easy to explain:

It is relevant to remember that the Withering is still up in the air, so anything about vampires in V5 rules may be a result of it instead of a historical default,

[HeavyWhiskey]

Hi everyone

There are comments here about how "level 6+ powers aren't relevant to the table 99% of the time" or how "7th gen vampires don't show up", but I exclusively play Dark Ages where you can make a 7th gen and regularly play long enough to reach 6 level powers. As a matter of fact I've never made a char above 7th. Well, that's not true, I did once and ate my sire.

Now as far as I know V5 doesn't have a Dark Ages book and if it did something something blood potency (not exactly recall how it works, not trying to be a dick) will make up the difference, I just don't like the cap and how my 800 yr+ plus old Follower of Set wouldn't be that much stronger or different than a 200 yr old one... unless I read V5 wrong.

I don't like things being "samey".

I guess i should answer the op question: no, I don't miss high level disciplines. I'm still using them

[Asmodai]

They're limited everywhere, only Mage has rules on 6+ Backgrounds and even then only by Core in M20, before it was really a GttT niche thing.

Not that I don't like those rules. I think plenty of STs use them everywhere since GttT, I know I do, but YMMV and all that. RAW, though, it's not a thing (even in GttT it shouldn't exist in individual sheets, it was meant for pooled BGs).

Check pp. 178 in GttTech, It's not a pooled background. It's for an individual character.

[CTPhipps]

A warning against Edition Warring, btw. People are welcome to say but they do and don't like but don't get into bashing.

[MyWifeIsScary]

It is relevant to remember that the Withering is still up in the air, so anything about vampires in V5 rules may be a result of it instead of a historical default,

If it's the withering I'd expect people to actually be aware of it. but from a Withering I'd expect Vampires to get weaker but not change how their powers fundamentally work. NuPotence/Celerity/Fortitude/clan specifics are simply too different.

[monteparnas]

Check pp. 178 in GttTech, It's not a pooled background. It's for an individual character.

I stand corrected in this regard.

Still, IIRC it was only a thing again in M20 core, so not even in Revised. If I'm wrong about this, please let me know.

If it's the withering I'd expect people to actually be aware of it. but from a Withering I'd expect Vampires to get weaker but not change how their powers fundamentally work. NuPotence/Celerity/Fortitude/clan specifics are simply too different.

The V5 books seem to be mostly presented from the perspective of Fledglings and Neonates, and by the time of the core the Withering had happened almost 15 years prior. It was already old news, something whose effects people got used to as their new normal, and many Neonates barely remember how things were before or not at all. The earlier books are specially expected to be focused on the now.

Also, who's to say which other effects the Withering would cause? We only have rules for its most basic effects in Gehenna, even then mostly based on its onset in the end of the last official novel, and in a form meant for the book's scenarios, which are now officially non-canon even if the canon incorporates something from them.

So weird star in the sky signals that some shit is to happen and then the Curse itself starts to behave extra strange and inconsistent with anything ever seen all around the world. When the dust settles X months after, who's to say what else will it bring? As far as anyone can tell it could have obliterated Generation distinctions, it could have inverted its effects, it could have granted the Toreador with laser eyes and the Nosferatu with the ability to summon lightsabers.

I'm not saying that they have done a good job at hinting to this possibility. As far as I'm concerned they took the lamest road by not stating anything so we not only don't know what happened, we also don't know how much the characters are aware of anything. That's not what I would have asked. But fiction being what fiction is, it's still a possibility up in the air, so we can't say for sure if V5 intends the current rules to represent how vampires worked prior to around 2004.

[Jackob]

As someone who prefers Dark Ages to modern nights (and designed some of those Level 6+ powers ), I kinda like 'em. I keep wondering what a V5 Dark Ages would look like, though I doubt they'd ever make one.

[Kakost]

Hi everyone

There are comments here about how "level 6+ powers aren't relevant to the table 99% of the time" or how "7th gen vampires don't show up", but I exclusively play Dark Ages where you can make a 7th gen and regularly play long enough to reach 6 level powers. As a matter of fact I've never made a char above 7th. Well, that's not true, I did once and ate my sire.

Now as far as I know V5 doesn't have a Dark Ages book and if it did something something blood potency (not exactly recall how it works, not trying to be a dick) will make up the difference, I just don't like the cap and how my 800 yr+ plus old Follower of Set wouldn't be that much stronger or different than a 200 yr old one... unless I read V5 wrong.

I don't like things being "samey".

I guess i should answer the op question: no, I don't miss high level disciplines. I'm still using them

I played for years a 7.000 years old 4th gen. And Im super happy for the change (even thou not exactly so happy for the final execution... Anyway, there are many cons and pros for V5 imo)

Edit: I also always HATED with a passion all the Thaumaturgy and such mess (Koldunism, Necromancy, Abyssal Sorcery, Assamite and Setite Sorcery etc etc etc, all that massive mess)