(V5) Do we really miss high-level Disciplines?

[monteparnas]

There are comments here about how "[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]level 6+ powers aren't relevant to the table 99% of the time" or how "7th gen vampires don't show up", but I exclusively play Dark Ages where you can make a 7th gen and regularly play long enough to reach 6 level powers. As a matter of fact I've never made a char above 7th. Well, that's not true, I did once and ate my sire.

There are, but a number of posters also did played such levels. I do regularly.

I don't miss the 6+ powers because I find them badly made and a bad mechanic, not because I find them a bad concept or a non-existent play-style, I just think there are better ways of doing it, and they don't need 6+ levels.

Some such mechanics include Combo/Devotions/Amalgams with elder-level requisites as seen in VtR and specific traits for elders that adjust previous powers, like the rules for Earthbound in DtF (or, by that matter, Metamagic feats in D&D 3rd ed).

[HeavyWhiskey]

I played for years a 7.000 years old 4th gen. And Im super happy for the change (even thou not exactly so happy for the final execution... Anyway, there are many cons and pros for V5 imo)

Edit: I also always HATED with a passion all the Thaumaturgy and such mess (Koldunism, Necromancy, Abyssal Sorcery, Assamite and Setite Sorcery etc etc etc, all that massive mess)

Do you mind expanding...you like the discipline merges and such but don't like the powers themselves or how the work mechanically?

While I don't hate Thaumaturgy and Koldunism I do have issues. the rest are fine. They're kinda self contained and useful for one thing (well, setite sorcery is also kind of all over the place)

[HeavyWhiskey]

Some such mechanics include Combo/Devotions/Amalgams with elder-level requisites as seen in VtR and specific traits for elders that adjust previous powers, like the rules for Earthbound in DtF (or, by that matter, Metamagic feats in D&D 3rd ed).

I have heard people talk positively about combo disciplines of later VtR editions

[Kakost]

Do you mind expanding...you like the discipline merges and such but don't like the powers themselves or how the work mechanically?

While I don't hate Thaumaturgy and Koldunism I do have issues. the rest are fine. They're kinda self contained and useful for one thing (well, setite sorcery is also kind of all over the place)

So for example, I think it was Monteparnas that gave suggestions based for instance on the Earthbounds on how to deal with elders powers without using 6+ dots. That's a sweet idea, which I think it's a far better fix.

As for V5, I liked the concept, but not so much the execution. I dont know if that's more clear to you right now... Im not sure Im being able to express myself clear in this... You know?

[HeavyWhiskey]

So for example, I think it was Monteparnas that gave suggestions based for instance on the Earthbounds on how to deal with elders powers without using 6+ dots. That's a sweet idea, which I think it's a far better fix.

As for V5, I liked the concept, but not so much the execution. I dont know if that's more clear to you right now... Im not sure Im being able to express myself clear in this... You know?

I read Monteparnas post again. I get what you'd like. Thanks

[monteparnas]

I have heard people talk positively about combo disciplines of later VtR editions

Mechanically speaking I'm going to use VtR 2nd ed for rules as soon as I manage to convince my grognard players (it's a process to convince them of switching editions of anything they already know, much less systems).

I do recommend that you take a look at the Disciplines and Devotions, even if just for the inspiration. But basically they let you create custom powers (not necessarily a combination, it can be a derivation of a single Discipline) and use its requisites as basis for the XP cost instead of attaching a level to them. The core book has many interesting ones, including one called Juggernaut's Gait that closely resembles Flesh of Marble, but even better (complete immunity to damage for the duration) at a higher cost (5 Vitae/turn), with Fortitude 5, Potence 3 as requisites (Resilience and Vigor in VtR).

So, that's one idea on how to model such powers. You still need a pretty powerful vampire to have it (someone capable of spending 5 Blood/turn and with 8 Discipline dots, 3 of them necessarily Out-of-Clan), and you have a considerably powerful effect (total immunity to any damage for some rounds), but without the need to specify a level or to come up with everything in-between for it. And while they're still arbitrary, it is easier to come up with consistent requisites than with consistent "elder levels".

[Lysander]

Grognard players Monteparnas? That's a new word I never heard quoted before.

[HeavyWhiskey]

Mechanically speaking I'm going to use VtR 2nd ed for rules as soon as I manage to convince my grognard players (it's a process to convince them of switching editions of anything they already know, much less systems).

I do recommend that you take a look at the Disciplines and Devotions, even if just for the inspiration. But basically they let you create custom powers (not necessarily a combination, it can be a derivation of a single Discipline) and use its requisites as basis for the XP cost instead of attaching a level to them. The core book has many interesting ones, including one called Juggernaut's Gait that closely resembles Flesh of Marble, but even better (complete immunity to damage for the duration) at a higher cost (5 Vitae/turn), with Fortitude 5, Potence 3 as requisites (Resilience and Vigor in VtR).

So, that's one idea on how to model such powers. You still need a pretty powerful vampire to have it (someone capable of spending 5 Blood/turn and with 8 Discipline dots, 3 of them necessarily Out-of-Clan), and you have a considerably powerful effect (total immunity to any damage for some rounds), but without the need to specify a level or to come up with everything in-between for it. And while they're still arbitrary, it is easier to come up with consistent requisites than with consistent "elder levels".

I'll check them. I'm sure I've some VtR books somewhere.

[Heavy Arms]

Grognard...

Grognard is a term that broadly means someone that prefers older versions of the game over newer ones; esp. when it's obviously an emotional response (such as nostalgia or simple familiarity) rather than a rational weighing of the merits of each edition.

It's deeply linked to the wargame origins of RPGs, as it's a French word (direct translation of "grumbler") that is used to describe experienced soldiers that don't like either commanders trying unconventional tactics, or younger soldiers that don't know how things "really work" yet. As such it's a mild (plenty of grognards find it a completely apt term and own it) but negative word to use about someone.

[Lysander]

Thanks Heavy Arms.

[Robert Armsley]

As someone who has played and GMed various editions of VTM since 1992, thank god we no longer have to worry about Elder disciplines. They now make Elders actually killable, and gives support to the idea that Antedilvians and Methuselahs can be killed. Kindred were in bad need of depowering since V20, and this edition plays perfectly for me. Because of many bad experiences I've had with broken Elder gameplay in tabletop, online and LARP, I am thankful that elder disciplines are gone. I hope they remain that way.

[Robert Armsley]

I agree - VTR 2E/Blood and Smoke is a fine rules set - I wrote my own Masquerade hack for it.

[adambeyoncelowe]

Didn't we have another thread like this recently?

Anyway, I think, if you're going to do it, elder levels should scale range, targets, etc, as others have said. I've suggested that before and think it would work.

So, if a five-dot power affects a city block, then a sixth-dot power should affect a city, seventh should affect a state, eighth a nation, ninth a continent. Something like that.

But also, you can do it the VTR way and just make bigger powers a factor of Blood Potency and prerequisites. That's rather neat and puts the balancing factors elsewhere (so not on scaling XP for dots that don't do that much).

In general, I think VTR2e's Disciplines are the best way to go. They are generally broader than V5's and more useful than V20's, while also not getting quite as silly or random in their progression as the latter.

Plus, fixed but broad powers with an indefinite number of Devotions works much better than the pick 'n' mix approach of V5 or the 'fixed, linear powers until level 6... unless it's a combo Discipline' of prior editions.

Half of what I loved about Disciplines the first time I played VTM was that you didn't need to learn a whole range of powers or spend hours (or days) agonising over which ones to pick. You just took your dots and gained the powers that came with that.

V5 added the headache back in, while adding in the progression traps of D&D (take x now or you'll never be able to get y several levels down the road). And all editions made elder powers unappealing (mostly because they were boring or too niche), but the one saving grace was that these were supposed to be examples of how elders crafted their own unique powers, so you could make up your own.

I also think 'common Disciplines with a few unique Devotions for bloodline powers' is better than Amalgams or iffy unique Disciplines.

When you look at the Khaibit Devotions from VTR2e, you can see the value of not having to tie them to a five-dot scaling power structure. A bunch of Devotions with two-dot prerequisites is perfectly fine in this model, and is probably better for Disciplines like Quietus or Obtenebration than five distinct powers that have to escalate.

I'm also over underpowered stuff for the sake of 'balance'. I like that VTR gives vamps more power out of the gate with things like Kindred Senses, Lashing Out and downgrading all mundane damage to bashing. And I like that all the one-dot Discipline powers give you a really good utility effect right out the gate (except Auspex 1, which I just never warmed to, but that's very much a YMMV thing).

There's none of this, 'Yay! You can see in the dark!' It's just, 'Everyone ignores you, even if you are walking down the street with a sniper rifle on your back' or 'Everyone is awed by you and you ignore all social penalties, even if you just killed someone.'

V5 does that a little (e.g., no rolls for Dominate powers against mortals), but then does things like giving you a power to get an animal familiar (which should be a Merit) or perfect balance (again, a Merit).

Then there's Auspex, where they break up the original level one power into two different ones (Sense the Unseen, Heightened Senses), so it's basically twice as costly as the previous edition. Especially given the cost of even a single Discipline dot, and the slow rate of XP, that feels sucky.

Did I mention that VTR2e Disciplines are cheaper, too, and all the XP costs are flat? Another reason to just steal the mechanics from that game.

Though I do appreciate V5 bringing elder powers down to levels four and five. The higher levels are generally better than the lower ones, IMO. This is an artefact of scaling XP costs -- which means they need to make cheaper powers feel comparatively much weaker -- so that's another thing they should ditch for the next edition.

[rickayelm]

Yes I really miss high level powers, the reduction of discipline power is one of the things I dislike about V5.

[monteparnas]

Didn't we have another thread like this recently?

No, that thread was necro'ed, probably because of this one.

It wasn't hugely old, but still not that recent.

Anyway, I think, if you're going to do it, elder levels should scale range, targets, etc, as others have said. I've suggested that before and think it would work.

That's the Earthbound route.

Basically they have a system, presented in their eponymous book, where they get to spend extra Faith to increase those aspects in a given power.

It is quite interesting, and I think it could be adapted for elder vampires. The benefit of that system over just guidelines for elder powers is that it actually lets the Earthbound tweak its own powers more freely. In a sense, it is similar to Metamagic Feats in D&D 3rd edition, but with higher cost instead of lower ceiling.