(V5) Do we really miss high-level Disciplines?

[blailton]

Hi everyone

I guess i should answer the op question: no, I don't miss high level disciplines. I'm still using them

That's the perfect awnser, IMO.

[adambeyoncelowe]

No, that thread was necro'ed, probably because of this one.

It wasn't hugely old, but still not that recent.


That's the Earthbound route.

Basically they have a system, presented in their eponymous book, where they get to spend extra Faith to increase those aspects in a given power.

It is quite interesting, and I think it could be adapted for elder vampires. The benefit of that system over just guidelines for elder powers is that it actually lets the Earthbound tweak its own powers more freely. In a sense, it is similar to Metamagic Feats in D&D 3rd edition, but with higher cost instead of lower ceiling.

I think it may have also been presented as an optional rule for Archmaster Spheres at some point too? But it's entirely possible I am remembering this from some forum or mail-serve discussion pre-Y2K.

[Cadmiumcadamium]

Didn't read the whole thread but here is my 2 cents.
Vampires of a sufficient age (make it elders, ancillas, whatever) can buy additional Discipline powers besides the 5 you can have as a neonate. So they can pick up that 2nd lvl 1 power. Or have amalgams that are mutually exclusive for a neonate.

IMO they should have done this by default for all kindred. Treating Discipline powers more like gifts in Werewolf, where you can pick up as many lvl 1 powers you want as long as you have the XP.

[Heavy Arms]

I'm not sure we really need to go into all the different ways V5 could be fixed via house rules and the like. The point that so many of us agree that should be done is sufficient for the thread.

[monteparnas]

I'm not sure we really need to go into all the different ways V5 could be fixed via house rules and the like. The point that so many of us agree that should be done is sufficient for the thread.

That's hardly the case when saying that we should be free to take as much powers as we can pay at any given level, because this particular fix is arguably the one thing most posters agree around here, regardless of edition or game they like or dislike.

[Heavy Arms]

I'm not sure why we should be debating individual fixes though. To the question of "do we miss Elder Disciplines?" the answer is fairly solidly, "not necessarily the implementation, but definitely the concept it was meant to convey." What good does it do to the point of the thread to go over ever possible way to address it?

[Asmodai]

I'm not sure why we should be debating individual fixes though. To the question of "do we miss Elder Disciplines?" the answer is fairly solidly, "not necessarily the implementation, but definitely the concept it was meant to convey." What good does it do to the point of the thread to go over ever possible way to address it?

That does seem to be the consensus. So what do we do about it?

[Heavy Arms]

What can we do about it? V5 is the way it is. Paradox hasn't hinted at any book that might address this coming in the near future, and has generally been loathe to address rules issues people have brought up with the new edition. None of us have the power to change that.

So, we can play other versions of VtM, or other vampire games, or we can house rule V5. What's right for individuals to do is up to them, as there is far less consensus in that regard. Nor should "we" as a bunch of people on a forum even have the ability to do more than this as it is.

[Asmodai]

What can we do about it? V5 is the way it is. Paradox hasn't hinted at any book that might address this coming in the near future, and has generally been loathe to address rules issues people have brought up with the new edition. None of us have the power to change that.

So, we can play other versions of VtM, or other vampire games, or we can house rule V5. What's right for individuals to do is up to them, as there is far less consensus in that regard. Nor should "we" as a bunch of people on a forum even have the ability to do more than this as it is.

Oh I agree with you. I meant that as a rhetorical question. It's obvious that WW doesn't care about discussions like this and I don't expect any changes beyond the ones people choose for their own tables.

[Robert Armsley]

6+ disciplines, like much of vampire, have been very good in concept but not great in execution. Individually written powers might be dogshit, completely broken, or not really in line with what the discipline was supposed to do. However, 6+ Abilities, Attributes and powers are essential to the core of vampire and the metaphysics of the wider WoD. It's all about inequality and In vampire, Generational conflict is king. In early editions, low generation was in almost every way objectively better than higher generation. 10th was slightly better than 11th. 9th was leagues better than 10th, 8th was better than 9th, and for every level below 8th you could increase abilities permanently beyond the ordinary mundane limit of 1-5.The only downside of Generation is that everyone else desired it and the way to get it was murder: Diablerie in the first two editions wasn't a drug metaphor or some irredeemable Worse-than-Murder- evil, it was just a way of murder that got you generation and was considered a most heinous crime by most elders who feared getting sucked to death.

From a Metaphyiscal point of view, the system draws from ideas like Gnosticism or Hermeticism and gives us a 1-5 rating for "Mundane" and 6-10 rating for divine. Vampires, Mages and other fellows have the ambition to be one with God, The Universe, Nature, whatever. Everyone can look upwards at unlimited potential. Without that, what's the point. If an elder just stops at 5's then where is the ambition, where is the strife and the struggle?

How can anyone fear elders, never mind antes, when the ceiling is so easily achievable in V5? Why has unfathomable power been reduced to "a few extra dice with discipline activation" and a faster heal speed? The WoD is about big top down differences and hierarchies. I think that's an idea that probably began vampire: What if your boss being a life draining parasite was very literal? Disciplines, gifts and spheres just exist to exacerbate inequality. The gameline is about inequality, it's the central theme. Getting rid of 6+ and reducing the inequality is a great way to show that you don't understand the thought process behind the IP

I'm glad that half baked gnostic bullshit isn't being pushed on me at the gaming table. If I want that, I'll play Mage: The Awakening. I want Near Dark, not Focault's Pendulum or Nobilis, thanks. That struggle can take place in the streets where it belongs. And trust me, you got shit loads of inequality on the streets without fake super powers.

[Robert Armsley]

I think it may have also been presented as an optional rule for Archmaster Spheres at some point too? But it's entirely possible I am remembering this from some forum or mail-serve discussion pre-Y2K.

Mage had two rules sets for Archspheres - Horizon, Stronghold of Hope (which had the Mage 2E iteration of level 6 Spheres), and Masters of the Art, written during the Revised run. A set of rules are only as useful as they actually see game play at a real table, and stuff that isnt mean to be used by PCs shouldnt get rules, it's a waste of development wordcount. My personal preference is for Horizon's rules, since they are attainable by PCs and aren't as world breaking as the Masters of the Arts Archspheres were. It's also ironic that Masters of the Art was written during the Mage Revised run, which had a metaplot that emphasized weaker, street level sorcerers.

Mage always had a scaling factor thing based on number of successes you could build up, which evolved into the Reach system and Spell Factors we see in Awakening 1 and 2 E. IMO, if you wanted game quantifiable Elder powers, you can't beat Awakening 2E's Spell Factor system for inspiration.

[Robert Armsley]

ature, whatever. Everyone can look upwards at unlimited potential. Without that, what's the point. If an elder just stops at 5's then where is the ambition, where is the strife and the struggle?

How can anyone fear elders, never mind antes, when the ceiling is so easily achievable in V5? Why has unfathomable power been reduced to "a few extra dice with discipline activation" and a faster heal speed? The WoD is about big top down differences and hierarchies. I think that's an idea that probably began vampire: What if your boss being a life draining parasite was very literal? Disciplines, gifts and spheres just exist to exacerbate inequality. The gameline is about inequality, it's the central theme. Getting rid of 6+ and reducing the inequality is a great way to show that you don't understand the thought process behind the IP

Whose thought process? The original development team from V1 is long, long gone.

Things like the blood bond, the Kiss, and the standard Disciplines work fine. There's no need for Vampire: The Masquerade to have demigod powers except by way of ST fiat. A game of antediluvian struggles isn't traditional VTM, it falls squarely into the realm of power games like Exalted portray. It sounds like you want Abyssal Exalted, not Kindred.

[Heavy Arms]

...and Masters of the Art, written during the Revised run.

I do not get where this came from.

MotA was at the end of its edition, but it was a 2e book too. It was also released only 3 years after Horizon. They're not some wildly far apart books in time or edition.

...and stuff that isnt mean to be used by PCs shouldnt get rules, ...

STs need to run NPCs too. Higher level powers that the PCs never get are still useful for ST creating NPCs that perform within the bounds of the rules rather than forcing STs to have to fiat everything. The WoD games aren't designed as asymmetric regarding PCs and NPCs, so things that are ST focused are important so the STs know how to run things. Asymmetric design might be better for the WoD, but it's not how things hard (even in 5th).

Whose thought process? The original development team from V1 is long, long gone.

And yet, Mark Rein Hagen worked on V1 and V5.

There's no need for Vampire: The Masquerade to have demigod powers except by way of ST fiat.

Your preference for "handle high powered NPCs via ST fiat," is not a universal fact.

Also, especially Disciplines in the 6-7 range are not that hard to get in VtM. A starting level character in VtM can be 8th Gen, meaning they only need one well chose diab to get access to 7th and 6+ stuff.

You're also completely neglecting MWiS's point, which is valid even if you disagree with how to handle 6+ powers/traits. V5 doesn't have any official way for anyone - NPCs included - to get them. MWiS's main complaint is that 4th-6th Gen NPCs have been weakened to the point of undermining the game, not that PCs need to have access to demigod powers fast.

A game of antediluvian struggles isn't traditional VTM, it falls squarely into the realm of power games like Exalted portray. It sounds like you want Abyssal Exalted, not Kindred.

Again, you're missing the point here. Antediluvian struggles are absolutely tradition VtM. The PCs are just pawns in those struggles. MWiS doesn't want Exalted, he wants low gen vampires to be the dangers VtM has always described them to be, to be supported by the rules of the game not just ST fiat.

Or, in other terms, he wants a game where a group of starting level Dragonblooded, no matter how min-maxed, are never going to stand a chance against Mask of Winters in a head-on fight, and the ST should be able to run that out of the books instead of fiat.

[adambeyoncelowe]

Mage had two rules sets for Archspheres - Horizon, Stronghold of Hope (which had the Mage 2E iteration of level 6 Spheres), and Masters of the Art, written during the Revised run. A set of rules are only as useful as they actually see game play at a real table, and stuff that isnt mean to be used by PCs shouldnt get rules, it's a waste of development wordcount. My personal preference is for Horizon's rules, since they are attainable by PCs and aren't as world breaking as the Masters of the Arts Archspheres were. It's also ironic that Masters of the Art was written during the Mage Revised run, which had a metaplot that emphasized weaker, street level sorcerers.

Mage always had a scaling factor thing based on number of successes you could build up, which evolved into the Reach system and Spell Factors we see in Awakening 1 and 2 E. IMO, if you wanted game quantifiable Elder powers, you can't beat Awakening 2E's Spell Factor system for inspiration.

Yes, I am aware there were two versions. Having checked my books, I can't seem to find Masters of the Art, so I can't say if that was entirely what I was thinking of. But it may just be that I was remembering the epic levels of the usual scaling factors (distance, targets, etc).

However, I do like the ones listed in Horizon, which I think would, with some work, also be a good template for how to explain Attributes over 5 in VTM, in my view.

E.g., at Intelligence 6 you've had so long to practice using your mental faculties that you can instantly recall any piece of information you need without any problems of memory or false connections; you can see the patterns between languages, allowing you to see that, for instance, English is a mishmash of older Germanic, Latin, Greek, French, Norse, and so on, so if you know those languages you can learn this new language in a matter of hours; you see the patterns in cultures and society, allowing you to see the structures that uphold them and the inevitable ways that they may progress if they continue in their current form, giving very powerful predictive modelling powers; and so on.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Another way of looking at it:
The old way of doing it supported everything. You want elder games? Go for it? You want elders to never show up and the game is entirely low level struggles? nothing's stopping you. Gehenna can by myth, existential threat, or whatever your storyteller wants to throw at you.

The new way of doing it supports next to nothing. You want elder games? The hunger dice alone makes the game unplayable. You want elders to never show up and for the game to be entirely low level struggles? Well that's all the game can really do. Gehenna can be... either a joke or the Storyteller needs to do a lot of homebrew. One really has to question why there's so many vampire cults when there's no vampire with quantifiably more power than the others*.

Objectively speaking, the old way of doing things offered more. I'd say it was better realized too and did what it set out to do.

And trust me, you got shit loads of inequality on the streets without fake super powers.

Maybe you should forget vampires and start playing Human: The Protagonist then? This kind of attitude makes me think of stuff like "I don't need the rest of the game, I like to struggle to complete the tutorial"


Like, the power difference between an ancillae and someone like mithras in v5 is kinda like the difference between a fit exercises-three-times-a-week guy and an MMA champion: In a fair fight, a fluke could the underdog a victory, fighting 3 to 1 with weapons though and it'd be a fluke if Mithras won. Why then would Mithras get a cult who venerates him as a god when he's not much more strong, charismatic or intelligent in comparison to your average Ventrue Ancillae? Why do the Nosferatu fear the niktuku? Why do the Assamites venerate Haquim?