The Cult of Isis and the Bahari

[SetiteFriend]

Question for those who own Cults of the Blood Gods: Do the Bahari get a re-work or are they presented more or less the same compared to V20?

I'm not exceedingly familiar with V20, but quickly comparing it with the Path of Lilith, it doesn't seem exceedingly different, it is very much more in-depth though and with a different focus (considering its now a cult and not a path).

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IIRC Bahari in CotBG have dropped all the masochism in favour of sadism; they 'kick ass' and one example given was a vigilante. Even though V5 thinks of Vampires as superheroes as badwrong fun, it gave of that vibe, though my memory is hazy because I didn't like what I read and don't plan to give it a second read.

This is, unsurprisingly, wrong.

Masochism is still a thing, you even got a merit for Ritual Scarification, and there is an entire section saying they aren't good vampires, and are generally just perpetrators of abuse.

[voidshaper]

"The Cult of Isis is comprised of blood sorcerers and mortal will-workers dedicated to a version of Lilith they equate with magic, transformation, and transcendence." Let the Streets Run Red, page 101.

The most interesting part of it, is that they have some conflict with another Lilith associated cult, the Cultivars.

Interesting. Browsing through the relevant Wiki entries, it looks like the Cult of Isis is remodeled (at least the Cainite branch) into classic 'hooded cultists' goon type antagonists with a Bahari background. The interest in blood sorcery could mean they're the same group who raided the Milwaukee Tremere Chantry in BJD. I'm starting to suspect it's a corrupted branch of the Cult, possibly FoS with a heretical doctrine. The actions described in the Wiki (including murdering the family of a character) don't sound like the classic Cult of Isis at all.

From a V20 perspective their counterpart the Cultivars read like a line of Lilim. Nerissa Blackwater's backstory sounds like she was embraced by one of the Antediluvians from Lilith's garden that make an appearance in one of the Gehenna scenarios. The article mentions possible Drowned Legacy origins, but that isn't necessarily mutually exclusive.

[MyWifeIsScary]

This is, unsurprisingly, wrong.

Masochism is still a thing, you even got a merit for Ritual Scarification, and there is an entire section saying they aren't good vampires, and are generally just perpetrators of abuse.

As I don't like being wrong, I've deigned to open the old manuscript my computer has. So yeah I should note I formed these opinions from a Manuscript rather than the final product.

Let me reclarify, just in case you're dismissing me because I seem one sided on the issue.
The Sadistic element of the Bahari is given far more emphasis than it was given in prior editions, at least in the manuscript I have. In V20, the Bahari got disputed credit for the thaumaturgical path that forces vampires to eat ash, which is a sadistic path. However, they weren't doing anything to anyone that they weren't doing to themselves. Meanwhile, the V5 Bahari are kicking ass and taking names, breaking down doors to chomp on the patriarchy. Yes, the book states that they're not heroes in doing this, but it's certainly more of a power trip than what was going on in V20, where everyone is concerned with things like the Masquerade.

The Manuscript only has one ritual in it. It's not particularly painful. The text does suggest the Bahari experience pain, and I recall some self abuse in the corebook with at least the whacky aura merit. But there's not much here. Still, yeah, there's probably some more masochistic items in the final release, I'll cede that to you. Still. My main issue isn't that they dialed down the masochism, it's that they upped the Sadism to levels a little too high.

Also they curiously hate gnostics in V5, despite being gnostic themselves. Go figure. I suppose "Gnostic" in V5 means "Noddist Caine worshipper" rather than, y'know, anything to do with Gnosticism as the FoS and Bahari are very much in line with the ideas, the former very explicitly.

[AnubisXy]

"The Cult of Isis is comprised of blood sorcerers and mortal will-workers dedicated to a version of Lilith they equate with magic, transformation, and transcendence." Let the Streets Run Red, page 101.

The most interesting part of it, is that they have some conflict with another Lilith associated cult, the Cultivars.

I guess they got retconned in 5th edition then. In prior editions the Cult of Isis was a Mage cult with a lot of Awakened members that were part of various Mage traditions. They were students of Isis who was, herself, an Awakened Archmage.

I guess in 5th edition now Isis was actually Lilith? Though that has a pretty massive alteration to the story of Set and Osiris, if Lilith/Isis was Osiris' wife and Horus is her son. Also interesting that Set defeated Lilith/Isis, Osiris and Horus until Lilith/Isis was taught the Spell of Life and trained by Thoth. I suppose that could position Thoth as Lucifer since Thoth was an instructor to Isis and Lucifer was an instructor to Lilith?

I don't know though that the story of Set/Osiris/Isis and Adam/Eve/Lilith mesh together very well though.

Also the Cult of Isis is in possession of the Spell of Life. Kind of a big deal if the Bahari have that in 5th edition.

[voidshaper]

I guess they got retconned in 5th edition then.

Not necessarily. The latest description in an x20 product (Sorcerer) makes it look like the Cult should rather be 'Cults' of Isis, with different branches and very different interpretations. It's entirely possible the diverse branches within the Traditions still exist. I have a suspicion that this is actually something the core Cult let happen as it obfuscates the ancient branch, needle in haystack style. But we won't know for sure until we get M5.

It's also possible that Semet, the new altruistic front of the Cult presented in S20, is actually a player behind the evil cloak & dagger version of the Cult of V5. Or not- the Bahari branch active in North America could also be a localized thing only.

I should mention, I would be rather disappointed with a retconned Cult of Isis, especially into something that resembles Call of Cthulhu cultist goons.

Edit: Ohh, I just noticed that "Semet" is really close to "Sekhmet". If I remember correctly from the Revised FoS Clanbook, there was a branch of Setites who tried to use Sekhmet as a stand-in for Set in a feminist/goddess aligned branch. IIRC, all the other Followers thought this was a bad idea.

[voidshaper]

Ok, I was able to have a look at CotBG. First off, the Bahari are largely the same (blood, pain, fertility), although stupid radical elements who just go forth and splatter are called out as such.
The Cult of Isis got its own section in the Minor Cults part. It's very different.

The Cult of Isis has undergone several transformations in the years since its founding, revering Isis as Lilith and [...] as countless other deities or deific female figures. All celebrate fertility, life, and ceremonies of joining. [...] The cultists don’t recognize Isis as an individual so much as a concept.

This may be true for satellite branches of the Cult, but not for its core branch. Isis is a very real entity to them. They protect her heritage and the teachings of Thoth. It's the whole reason why the Cult was founded.

The Cult is fiercely militant, protecting [sacred and magical places] with homicidal ferocity those areas where mages can more efficaciously practice their arts.

Uh, no. The Cult was never militant, and really is very much about Life- "homicidal ferocity" is something that describes Garou protecting a Caern.

They disdain areas of religious importance, however, reviling holy land and artifacts as much as any vampire.

Wuh? This just contradicts what was said before, but I guess True Faith is still icky to vampires.

Though some cells restrict membership based on gender, others find this attitude radical or outdated

The Cult of Isis was never gender restricted.

The elder members aren’t sure how to utilize this new army of angry [vampires]

Well, except the Cult would have a few millennia of experience of dealing with vampires. On both sides.

The cult has been based around protection and reaction to attacks on sacred places and people for so long, that the idea of dispatching a militia to take a site or eliminate an enemy is new to them.

Again, that is literally what they have been doing by calling the Children of Osiris.

While the Cult of Isis’ cells have a shared name and agenda, little communication exists between the religion’s various groups. [...] some branches emulate the Bahari scale of seed, maiden, mother, and matron.

I have to assume whatever group of vampires is calling themselves Cult of Isis in North America is just something completely different. My current working hypothesis is that a bunch from the Sisterhood of Sekhmet either co-opted the name or turned Bahari and defected.

Or they're really retconning the whole Cult into a bunch of hooded nitwits, but... picking the Cult of Isis for that role is weird as hell. They could have just gone with a new cult, shoehorning this specific organization into this role is such an odd choice.

I'm sorry if this was rant-y, but as I said, I like the Cult. It has a role in VtM, MtA, WtA, MtR, and even WtO, and was a useful tool for cross-overs.

[AnubisXy]

I mean it sounds to me like they retconned the Cult of Isis. The idea of them disdaining areas of religious importance and holy artifacts would be mind-boggling considering that in older editions the Cult was a religious organization that taught magical paradigms based in large part around reverence for Egyptian deities. It doesn't sound like the 5th edition Cult of Isis could possibly work with the Cult of Isis in older editions. It's been completely and totally inverted.

I'm guessing that the Children of Osiris (and Mummy as well) have no place in the 5th edition paradigm so they decided to cut them, but the Cult of Isis could be "salvaged" by modifying them into a Bahari cult. But I'm going to imagine that the Cult of Isis in 5th edition does not have the Spell of Life or the teaching of Thoth any more and they probably don't have many (if any) Awakened members. They're little more than a sorcerous/hedge-magic vampire blood cult and other than the name, have no similarities to the organization we've seen in earlier editions of the setting.

If we want an in-setting explanation then maybe after the vampires in the Children of Orisis returned to humanity the Followers of Set (or the Technocracy or another group) started hunting the members of the Cult of Isis down. They ended up being given refuge by the Bahari, and rejected all of their core tenets and beliefs in the process. I don't know, I'm sure someone could come up with something better. There's still weird retcons in there like the idea that the Cult of Isis now used to restrict membership based on gender which, in previous editions, it never did. So it'll be messy no matter what.

[Reasor]

Consciously, willfully continuing the cycle of abuse has been integral to the Path of Lilith since its first appearance in 1994's "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand," with "Failing to dispense pain and anguish" a rating 2 sin. ("Be a teacher, torturer and lover to any who seek enlightenment.") These people are dangerous basket cases dressed in red flags.

Recasting the Cult of Isis as secretly being Bahari sounds like the kind of plot swerve that's meant to be a major moment in a chronicle featuring either cult or both - lifting the Bahari up in the process, dragging the Isis cult down, or both.

[voidshaper]

I'm guessing that the Children of Osiris (and Mummy as well) have no place in the 5th edition paradigm so they decided to cut them, but the Cult of Isis could be "salvaged" by modifying them into a Bahari cult.

If we consider the lore bits of BJD and S20 as lead-ins for the 5th edition continuity, there's a bit of a mixed message concerning the Children. In BJD they're mentioned in a side note from Hesha where they were driven out (by True Brujah of all things) from one of their territories, while in S20 they seem to do just fine as a mortal cult and maintain their connection to the Cult of Isis.

If we want an in-setting explanation then maybe after the vampires in the Children of Orisis returned to humanity the Followers of Set (or the Technocracy or another group) started hunting the members of the Cult of Isis down.

There's actually a half-sentence in S20 that mentions some parts have been embraced and corrupted by Setites, but it's far from a full-scale assault. Granted, Mage isn't Vampire, so who knows about V5 canon.

Consciously, willfully continuing the cycle of abuse has been integral to the Path of Lilith since its first appearance in 1994's "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand," with "Failing to dispense pain and anguish" a rating 2 sin. ("Be a teacher, torturer and lover to any who seek enlightenment.") These people are dangerous basket cases dressed in red flags.

Recasting the Cult of Isis as secretly being Bahari sounds like the kind of plot swerve that's meant to be a major moment in a chronicle featuring either cult or both - lifting the Bahari up in the process, dragging the Isis cult down, or both.

The thing is, I could actually see some 'moderate' Bahari (Thorn Gardeners, Lilin Witches) compatible with the Cult of Isis, at least the pre-V5 version. Bahari also include mortals and mages, not just Lhaka, and my guess is they are a fair bit more chill than the vampires.

[Black Fox]

I mean it sounds to me like they retconned the Cult of Isis.

Sounds like it to me too. I wonder if this is part of a general divorce of each game line from each other. Vampire, like all the games, was once heavily integrated into the wider World of Darkness. Not just references to other game lines and concepts, but sometimes even making them fairly important to your game. The Cult of Isis - being a group of Mages/Sorcerers with heavy ties to Mummies and possibly ancient ties to the Silent Striders because of their common enemies - now simply becomes another vampire blood cult and thus must be shoehorned into the Bahari as its closest existing analogue.

That approach completely overlooks the actual depiction of the Cult of Isis in all its previous incarnations. But if your goal is to make Vampire solely about concepts exclusive to Vampire, then that is a feature not a bug.

I think it impoverishes the setting.

[MrNatas]

I'm sorry if this was rant-y, but as I said, I like the Cult. It has a role in VtM, MtA, WtA, MtR, and even WtO, and was a useful tool for cross-overs.

I also like the Cults and organizations for cross overs and I find making the Cult of Isis into just a vampiric blood-sorcery cult is pretty unappealing. Its like asking for a reuben and someone saying they can make something just as good and then hands you a ham & cheese.

That aside, I could definitely see a Cult of Isis branch be more Bahari/Lilith aligned especially if they had more vampiric members of that branch. No religion is a monolith and that is true even down to cults. What I would be interested in would be how they interact with other Bahari and branches of the Cult of Isis. I would assume Bahari would view the cult as a Lilith Cult with Isis trappings while the Cult of Isis would see it as the opposite. It would be interesting to have something that would explore that conflict.

[voidshaper]

Sounds like it to me too. I wonder if this is part of a general divorce of each game line from each other.
[...]
But if your goal is to make Vampire solely about concepts exclusive to Vampire, then that is a feature not a bug.

That would at least explain why they chose the Cult of Isis specifically instead of just coming up with something new. Seems honestly a bit petty, though.

What I would be interested in would be how they interact with other Bahari and branches of the Cult of Isis. I would assume Bahari would view the cult as a Lilith Cult with Isis trappings while the Cult of Isis would see it as the opposite. It would be interesting to have something that would explore that conflict.

Yeah, this would be a far more interesting dynamic. Something I wanted to try is a Bahari Bubasti (Lilith is pretty compatible with Gaia if you apply some goth makeup) and the Cult would be a perfect medium for that. Even if you don't go full cross-over, transporting ideas like that becomes more awkward if you flatten out orgs like the Cult.

[SetiteFriend]

The Cult of Isis presented in LtSRR has a big mage presence, don't know why they changed them so much for CotBG

[MrNatas]

Yeah, this would be a far more interesting dynamic. Something I wanted to try is a Bahari Bubasti (Lilith is pretty compatible with Gaia if you apply some goth makeup)

Once again, 'Gaia being the first vampire' heresy draws ever closer.

The Cult would be a perfect medium for that. Even if you don't go full cross-over, transporting ideas like that becomes more awkward if you flatten out orgs like the Cult.

The Cult of Isis presented in LtSRR has a big mage presence, don't know why they changed them so much for CotBG

To add my two sents to this. I think the idea is that for CotBG they just wanted vampire view/side of cults in general so it was written as only a vampire book, the LtSRR was more a overview/adventure of that region so the cult was written with that in mind. Does that make the Cult/writing inconsistent? Yes but, it's not like we are not used to that.

This is a theory that I only have circumstantial evidence for but, I get the feeling that there isn't a final 'lore master' type position in Paradox-WW that has the final say on what is consistent across books/lines. Justin Achilli is the Brand Creative Lead but, I'm not sure if he looks over everything in a QA eye to make sure everything makes sense together.

[MyWifeIsScary]

One of the things is that the Bahari are eaten up like hotcakes. I once threw a Bahari cult into one of the only times I ran an Anarch Freestate and boom did my players concert fast. Dark secrets, Beautiful and charismatic leader, Torture porn... the shackles couldn't have gone on fast enough. People might get confused about the sabbat but hardcore Noddists are only done ironically, FoS need a particular mindset, but Bahari are fishing in a barrel when it comes to VTM players.

But as popular as they are (and as curiously easy as it is for me to play an effective leader for a cult that shouldn't really have leaders according to some interpretations but, y'know, leading the groupthink is good too) they really have a corner and should stick to it. One thing I like about VTM cults is that you could adapt whatever you liked to your game without necessarily having to follow some big idea of what your cult should be. Loyalist sabbat? Cool. Ultra conservatives? Also cool. Making everything about lilith isn't cool, it's limiting.