The Cult of Isis and the Bahari

[AnubisXy]

WoD5 seems to like ideas but not details but, nerds like me care about details. Take the family reunion for example. Necromancers coming together to form a new sect to be stronger then being alone. Nothing wrong with that idea however, from all the material we've seen the Giovanni wouldn't be treated with in that case. They have been nothing but antagonistic to the Cappadocians, Samedi, and the Harbingers. Why would those bloodlines allow the Giovanni into the club? Just because the Giovanni where desperate and the others out of the kindness of their heart?

Consider that the extent of the beef between the Samedi and the Giovanni was mostly just business. They were rivals in the business of necromancy but they weren't in an existential war with another. As such the idea of them burying the hatchet isn't too crazy.

Then with the Harbringers, in their loresheet in Cults, it's revealed that they are, in fact, still murdering Giovanni. They only joined the Hecata to get closer to their targets. They even have a special bonus where they don't get Stains for murdering Giovanni. They're keeping it on the downlow for now, but at some point the fact that they're still murdering their "brothers" will come out and either the Harbringers will be kicked out of the Hecata or the remaining Giovanni will flee and join someone else (probably the Anarchs but maybe the Camarilla).

[adambeyoncelowe]

Yeah, this is at the very least going to be my head-canon for now.

Is the Sisterhood of Sekhmet mentioned at all as part of the Ministry in V5? My knowledge about them starts and ends with the Revised FoS Clanbook.

Looks like it's from CB: Followers of Set, but the wiki doesn't say which edition (so I assume the original one?): https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Sisterhood_of_Sekhmet

[SetiteFriend]

I wouldn't describe the break in verisimilitude in such a way that causes inconsistency as positive. I also wouldn't give the writers rope to say they should do things the easiest way, I prefer to stick them to a higher standard of quality than that. If I'm going to play your RPG for hundred of hours I would like it to make sense within the setting itself.

I'm not really sure what you mean by 'undefined metaplot' because WoD5 does clearly have a metaplot. The Family reunion, collapse of the sabbat, banu haqim joining the camarilla, these are all part of the metaplot. The story being told is a shift of powers into new powers and that's not what anyone is complaining about. It's that the details of the events don't make sense given what we have seen before and if WoD5 is supposed to be a continuation of that setting (which all material seems to indicate it is) then it should make sense within itself.

Undefined as in the events aren't explained in detail and you can fill in the blanks yourself.

WoD5 seems to like ideas but not details but, nerds like me care about details. Take the family reunion for example. Necromancers coming together to form a new sect to be stronger then being alone. Nothing wrong with that idea however, from all the material we've seen the Giovanni wouldn't be treated with in that case. They have been nothing but antagonistic to the Cappadocians, Samedi, and the Harbingers. Why would those bloodlines allow the Giovanni into the club? Just because the Giovanni where desperate and the others out of the kindness of their heart?

Along side that the Promise of 1528 was a pact of non-intervention between the Camarilla and Giovanni what does it having an end date matter? If the Giovanni was desperate to for allies then why not join the camarilla itself? Why would their old enemies of the other necromancers be a better choice then their semi-allies of the camarilla?

These are question I don't really expect answers for but, ones that I ask myself when reading these events. Which is the ultimate reason why people are not excited for WoD5's continuation because everything seems to indicate that the players shouldn't expect answers to these questions because the game isn't about these events, it's about you being a fledgling anarch struggling to survive day to day and that character would be just as much in the dark as we are.

Yes, it purposefully avoids details, it cares more about being a setting for stories over, to quote Achilli, what happened in a now-untouchable past.

As for the Family Reunion, it's explained in Cults. And set up since V20.

As for people not being excited, I think that's just the "V5 kicked my dog and ran over my grandma" crowd that is strong in certain spaces.

[MyWifeIsScary]

As painful as I find 5th edition's lore the part where a lot of -what happens- is left to mystery is kindof a good idea.
I mean the execution is absolutely attrotious, but the Idea is good if a little inconsistent. I recall V5 getting really into detail with things like Occupy wallstreet and shit like that. Which is... no thank you. Yet with the Giovanni takeover... the absurd thing is that they didn't release an adventure book for it and just tell you -it happened-. The Tremere pyramid shattering is similarly a scenario which could've been done with a fun adventure book but... then we wouldn't get the story the writers had in mind. :/ Alright so lastly there's the big upset with the Camarilla losing their fucking minds and that made a great adventure... oh wait it didn't. These were all fun adventures the writers went on, they're not for the likes of you.

V5 kinda forces STs to go against the lore because
-suddenly all your character spreads are wrong and powers and the power dynamics that informed you of your storytelling decisions are wrong. The change is extreme and it shouldn't be understated how monumentally obtrusive these changes are to the way the game plays. Hell half of the V5 metaplot simply couldn't happen without the gargantuan nerfs V5 provides.
-Literally all the sects have changed in ways that are unfavourable for everyone who isn't an anarch that doesn't like a challenge (IE nobody worth playing with) with many changes shafting popular clans. Why would inflict this upon your players? Some of them are fun scenarios but gehenna scenarios are fun and nobody wants to make those canon.

Find me a ST who runs V5 100% RAW. Now nobody plays according to lore.

[MrNatas]

The setting isn't lore agnostic, and that is just an exaggeration over a couple tweets.

But the more undefined metaplot has been a really positive thing, it's much easier to adapt the setting (especially things like the Family Reunion), and there is less "ackchyually that goes against the lore".

I wouldn't describe the break in verisimilitude in such a way that causes inconsistency as positive. I also wouldn't give the writers rope to say they should do things the easiest way, I prefer to stick them to a higher standard of quality than that. If I'm going to play your RPG for hundred of hours I would like it to make sense within the setting itself.

I'm not really sure what you mean by 'undefined metaplot' because WoD5 does clearly have a metaplot. The Family reunion, collapse of the sabbat, banu haqim joining the camarilla, these are all part of the metaplot. The story being told is a shift of powers into new powers and that's not what anyone is complaining about. It's that the details of the events don't make sense given what we have seen before and if WoD5 is supposed to be a continuation of that setting (which all material seems to indicate it is) then it should make sense within itself.

WoD5 seems to like ideas but not details but, nerds like me care about details. Take the family reunion for example. Necromancers coming together to form a new sect to be stronger then being alone. Nothing wrong with that idea however, from all the material we've seen the Giovanni wouldn't be treated with in that case. They have been nothing but antagonistic to the Cappadocians, Samedi, and the Harbingers. Why would those bloodlines allow the Giovanni into the club? Just because the Giovanni where desperate and the others out of the kindness of their heart?

Along side that the Promise of 1528 was a pact of non-intervention between the Camarilla and Giovanni what does it having an end date matter? If the Giovanni was desperate to for allies then why not join the camarilla itself? Why would their old enemies of the other necromancers be a better choice then their semi-allies of the camarilla?

These are question I don't really expect answers for but, ones that I ask myself when reading these events. Which is the ultimate reason why people are not excited for WoD5's continuation because everything seems to indicate that the players shouldn't expect answers to these questions because the game isn't about these events, it's about you being a fledgling anarch struggling to survive day to day and that character would be just as much in the dark as we are.

[voidshaper]

Yeah, this is at the very least going to be my head-canon for now.

Is the Sisterhood of Sekhmet mentioned at all as part of the Ministry in V5? My knowledge about them starts and ends with the Revised FoS Clanbook.

[adambeyoncelowe]

To me, it reads like this is only supposed to be the branch of the Cult of Isis that vampires deal with (hence, Isis is Lilith). In this case, it may be a fringe group or, as others have noted, a Sekhmet cult that has appropriated Lilin ideas and the more benign face of Isis to push their own agenda.

I would assume the Cult of Isis as it appears in Mummy is either its own thing, or a deeper part of the cult that most vampires would never discover (sort of like how the Lost Tribe is hidden within the Black Hand, or the Tal'mahe'Ra is hidden in everything).

[Mizu]

The setting isn't lore agnostic, and that is just an exaggeration over a couple tweets.

But the more undefined metaplot has been a really positive thing, it's much easier to adapt the setting (especially things like the Family Reunion), and there is less "ackchyually that goes against the lore".

Its easier to make alterations to a preexisting foundation then it is to make things from scratch, not everyone is great at homebrew or desires a game that makes them do the work of setting up a setting even if they do have the talent to do so. Ninja lawyers aren't going to pop out of your pre-5th edition books and tell you that you are doing it wrong if you deviate from the default setting lore at your game table to facilitate the story you and your players are making.

[SetiteFriend]

The setting isn't lore agnostic, and that is just an exaggeration over a couple tweets.

But the more undefined metaplot has been a really positive thing, it's much easier to adapt the setting (especially things like the Family Reunion), and there is less "ackchyually that goes against the lore".

[MrNatas]

From his tweets that were mentioned over on the WtA board it looks more like the goal is to create a lore-agnostic setting. The stated concern is that players may be put off by the amount of lore that comes with certain elements, but I honestly don't see the need to rewrite things completely for that purpose. It's enough to write them in a way that doesn't necessitate deep lore knowledge to include them.

I fully believe that is just the leads blowing smoke or at least making a shield. The reason why things are inconsistent? 'Well the setting is lore-agnostic' or whatever else. And honestly? I find the stance of making something 'lore-agnostic for new players' also to be marketing jargon. A new player jumping into the game doesn't need to know basically anything about the setting except some brief details. That was true in 2000, I don't see why it would suddenly change now. Do you think people do wiki deep dives into the shadowrun setting before they make a character? My guess would be, no. I think you would get more out of the setting by knowing more but, it's by no mean a requirement to have a fun time. The only thing does it make the ST have to dig more into vague statements in order to make the setting rich enough for the player to find it fun/believable.

Changes to the setting are fine but, only if basic questions are answered in a way that make sense to the setting itself. Don't make a 'Monte Cook's WoD' and call it a continuation of the setting. That might be a bit harsh but, this honestly feels more like an alternative-WoD setting then the one presented in Revised/20th.

[voidshaper]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with "What I was going to do anyways" because that's the whole reason why paths were formulated: for vampires struggling with the Beast to pick a morality more appropriate for their needs. Imagine making boats an option and getting mad when nobody wants to swim.

Heh, I consider it more of a "wanting your players to swim by giving them a boat" problem.

I would rather keep the Isis cult as the Isis cult and the many, many different cults of the Bahari very seperate.

Sure! I wouldn't need Bahari in the Cult of Isis as written canon either- especially not Rampaging Furies Of Lilian Rage. I can just adjust as needed. Good example actually how the Cult provides an adaptable platform, despite having such overarching lore connections.

[MyWifeIsScary]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with "What I was going to do anyways" because that's the whole reason why paths were formulated: for vampires struggling with the Beast to pick a morality more appropriate for their needs. Imagine making boats an option and getting mad when nobody wants to swim.

But actually.. they never really got onto the path. I lured them in with chains, whips, sisterhood and the acceptance they so craved, a few occult secrets and Necromancy/Thaumaturgy offers were a cherry on top. It was all too easy to... wait they enjoyed their characters getting horrifically mauled and tortured so long as they could imagine someone sexy doing it. I guess there were no cons then.

I guess I feel more reservation towards what I feel is less catering and more pandering. Later V20 and V5 put perhaps a bit too much stock towards the Lilith myth, and V5 seems to want to put everything as Diametric opposites. I like things complicated, messy and packed with verisimilitude not a matter of Red Vs Blue.
Set is far more analogous to Caine than Isis to Lilith so they might as well make that canon at this rate. As much as that works, I wouldn't ever want them to push for that as truth. I like the broad and open-ended approach of older works (DTF be damned) but Isis certainly isn't lilith. I could see a cult making such a connection because of course but vampires tend towards the better educated and there's surely a WoD equivalent to google. I would rather keep the Isis cult as the Isis cult and the many, many different cults of the Bahari very seperate.

[voidshaper]

To add my two sents to this. I think the idea is that for CotBG they just wanted vampire view/side of cults in general so it was written as only a vampire book, the LtSRR was more a overview/adventure of that region so the cult was written with that in mind. Does that make the Cult/writing inconsistent? Yes but, it's not like we are not used to that.

This is a theory that I only have circumstantial evidence for but, I get the feeling that there isn't a final 'lore master' type position in Paradox-WW that has the final say on what is consistent across books/lines. Justin Achilli is the Brand Creative Lead but, I'm not sure if he looks over everything in a QA eye to make sure everything makes sense together.

From his tweets that were mentioned over on the WtA board it looks more like the goal is to create a lore-agnostic setting. The stated concern is that players may be put off by the amount of lore that comes with certain elements, but I honestly don't see the need to rewrite things completely for that purpose. It's enough to write them in a way that doesn't necessitate deep lore knowledge to include them.

Bahari are fishing in a barrel when it comes to VTM players.

One thing I like about VTM cults is that you could adapt whatever you liked to your game without necessarily having to follow some big idea of what your cult should be. Loyalist sabbat? Cool. Ultra conservatives? Also cool. Making everything about lilith isn't cool, it's limiting.

I know what you mean, but this goes back to the problems that Paths of Enlightenment tend to fall either in the 'what I was going to do anyways' or 'unplayable' category. It wasn't an especially well implemented system. The Bahari Paths cater to the first category and I personally like the change from crunch to fluff for character philosophies and ethics.
The other thing on top of the flawed execution of the Path system was that example characters tend to be extremists. The narrator for Revelations of the Dark Mother is a famously bad IC example of a Bahari, as she constantly acts in opposition of the ideology. I like the small section in the FoS Clanbook about how service and devotion to Set varies for the Followers from lip-service to zeal, because that's how this stuff works.

[MyWifeIsScary]

One of the things is that the Bahari are eaten up like hotcakes. I once threw a Bahari cult into one of the only times I ran an Anarch Freestate and boom did my players concert fast. Dark secrets, Beautiful and charismatic leader, Torture porn... the shackles couldn't have gone on fast enough. People might get confused about the sabbat but hardcore Noddists are only done ironically, FoS need a particular mindset, but Bahari are fishing in a barrel when it comes to VTM players.

But as popular as they are (and as curiously easy as it is for me to play an effective leader for a cult that shouldn't really have leaders according to some interpretations but, y'know, leading the groupthink is good too) they really have a corner and should stick to it. One thing I like about VTM cults is that you could adapt whatever you liked to your game without necessarily having to follow some big idea of what your cult should be. Loyalist sabbat? Cool. Ultra conservatives? Also cool. Making everything about lilith isn't cool, it's limiting.

[MrNatas]

Yeah, this would be a far more interesting dynamic. Something I wanted to try is a Bahari Bubasti (Lilith is pretty compatible with Gaia if you apply some goth makeup)

Once again, 'Gaia being the first vampire' heresy draws ever closer.

The Cult would be a perfect medium for that. Even if you don't go full cross-over, transporting ideas like that becomes more awkward if you flatten out orgs like the Cult.

The Cult of Isis presented in LtSRR has a big mage presence, don't know why they changed them so much for CotBG

To add my two sents to this. I think the idea is that for CotBG they just wanted vampire view/side of cults in general so it was written as only a vampire book, the LtSRR was more a overview/adventure of that region so the cult was written with that in mind. Does that make the Cult/writing inconsistent? Yes but, it's not like we are not used to that.

This is a theory that I only have circumstantial evidence for but, I get the feeling that there isn't a final 'lore master' type position in Paradox-WW that has the final say on what is consistent across books/lines. Justin Achilli is the Brand Creative Lead but, I'm not sure if he looks over everything in a QA eye to make sure everything makes sense together.