Question about Thaumaturgie

[Cain Loup-Noir]

One of my player is arguing that blood rage, that can allow him to suppress someone's blood spent limit, can also have some other effect. Specifically he say that if he use blood rage on another Tremere he may have the possibility to use some powers multiple time in a round (use blood cauldron 3 times or more on the same target for exemple) I've tried to explain him that some power, even with instant activation, need an action or a round to fonction totally but he's saying that it's specified nowhere in the book that you cannot use a power multiple time...

If i take the exemple of blood cauldron he's saying that it's specified nowhere that use it on another tremere and forc him to use blood cauldron multiple time, as blood rage allow you to make your target spent his blood the way he and like he want

I ask here because he said that the other players will tell if yes or not it's possible, so what would you respond to him? He's not a trouble maker he's just imaginative and try different way to use his powers to have some possible but unexpected effects

[MyWifeIsScary]

I would allow it under the premise that the subject would need to split their dice pool as normal for multiple actions. IE if you' force someone to Cauldron of Blood 3 times, and they have a willpower of 8, they could perhaps try 2/3/3 or 4/2/2 or something or other. I'd rather just be blasting a guy with a roll of 8 die, but for other thaumaturgical powers like Movement of the Mind having multiple targets can be very useful. going 8/0/0 is an option: The Blood rage just dictates that blood is spent, it dictate how it's used. Pranking someone by forcing them to use CoB while giving a handshake probably won't work.

[Thoth]

Generally, a discipline activation, especially something as tricky as magic casting is considered a Simple Action, rather than a Reflexive Action. So the ability to increase blood expenditure per turn allows you to attribute boost, heal, and use a discipline that costs blood, rather than just using the discipline multiple times. This gets a bit hazy when things like Temporis and Celerity get involved, but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.

Let us also not forget that the text about Blood Rage says that the caster controls what gets activated, but the book doesn't give anything about where it is pointed. In other words the target can be forced to burn blood to turn into mist form (protean 5), but there is nothing about forcing a Thaumaturge with Lure of Flames to aim at a specific target, something in the area will catch fire, but no one has control over it. The Cauldron of Blood caster can't control his blood or targeting because someone else is forcing the action, but the text of Blood Rage doesn't give control of a power, only how the blood is spent to activate it or not.

Not to mention, this combo is a really good way to drop someone into frenzy from hunger.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

There's also not enough informations in the book to tell how many times you can use a power. If you use celerity to use cauldron of blood 3 time on a target that would be extremely powerfull, no?
And one of his questions about blood rage was "it's used to force someone to loose his blood by activating the power i want, but is it specifically said that i can't use it on myself?"
He had some other questions like this:
"Does powers that need physical contact like cauldron of blood needs a skin contact or can it work through clothing?" And yes it is not said in the book while it is crucial to know that especially when your target wear riot gear or a thick armor.

"Does animate the unmoving work to force object to fall in pieces? If a chair can walk or a weapon jump out of your hand thanks to it why wouldn't be possible to make the object decompose itself to avoid your opponents taking it on the ground when the power end?"

"Thaumaturgy countermagic is a specific Discipline outside of thaumaturgy itself, it is used to counter thaumaturgy but also mysticals Disciplines (with half efficiency) so if i use Theft of Vitae on a target that also posess Thaumaturgy countermagic, can i use mine to prevent him cancelling my power?" I know the question seems incredible to me too, but according to the rules it is not forbidden to use Thaumaturgy Countermagic to cancel Thaumaturgy Countermagic...

"If you make a diablerie and lower your generation below 8 you can raise thaumaturgy above 5, but path are cap to five, what doe it give you to improve thaumaturgy at this point?" He and i know that some power like movement of the mind can use thaumaturgy level as strength, but there are very few so his question is legitimate.

"Power Over Life can create a life form without any free will, can i create a clone of myself that posess all my powers? And can i create several of them as long as i pay the blood cost ? And can i create non existant thing like mythical creature or recreate a werewolf ?" I've already said to him that to create something with this path you need to fully understand how it work, it's not like the genie of the lamp that fullfil a wish, but with this power if he has the sufficiant knowledge he can create whatever he want, and with enough science knowledge what else can he create? Even i doesn't see where's the limit outside of his own size in terms of supernatural powers, on other foruls i've read that some peaple used it to recreate vitae to drink... nothing say it's impossible in the book...

Of course i could tell him to focuse on the basic purpose of those but on the other hand there's some interesting question a player can ask himself

Movement of the mind also has been a big reflexion subject for him, "can i use it on a specific limb like brain or heart?", "is there an opposite roll if i use it on the object my target has in his hands?", "how fast can i fly with the level 4?", "if i use it on someone can i make him stay still in the air to interrogate him?"
I have plenty of others, and the book lack of that kind of precision, i know i could just put my own lines but i also want to know how older st play with those holes in the rules

[Asmodai]

Jesus wept. Cain Loup-Noir

• You're not able to use Celerity to do multiple discipline activations. It needs to be a physical action. It says so in the description of Celerity.
• Blood Rage literally says "The thaumaturge may not use Blood Rage on herself to circumvent generational limits."
• Blood Cauldron says a touch is enough, since you're boiling someone's blood through sympathethic contact, I'd assume light clothing would count, but heavy would not. That's down to the ST.
• Animate the Unmoving creates magically animated items like in Fantasia or Beauty and the Beast, it doesn't reassamble or assemble them. They twist and turn and move how you tell them. You're not reassembling them, you're changing their nature to facilitate movement. If you tell them to jump into a fire or the sea or run off the scene you can get rid of weapons, but it's not going to do anything else
• Sure, you could probably use countermagic on countermagic, but at half effectiveness at best and you need to spend blood based on your generational limits. Since specifically it's not Thaumaturgy it's a separate discipline. Most likely because of people being asses about things like this.
• "Path ratings never exceed 5, though the overall Thaumaturgy score may. If a character reaches a rating of 5 in her primary path and increases her Thaumaturgy score afterward, she may allocate her “free” path dot to a different path." ... it's in the BOOK!
• The Simulacra questions is just absurd. The best you can make is a rough approximation of your human self. It might have fangs, but it's not going to have any magical or supernatural traits. It's just making a homonculus. Not a carbon copy of a character sheet.
• Movement of the mind is ALSO (are you sensing a pattern, I'm sensing a pattern) covered in the book. You do damage equal to the level of your path in Movemnt of the Mind when you use it offensivley, unless you're using specific objects that might have specific damage. However, whenever it's used on a living person, it's a resisted roll. So you might end up causing tears or minor hemorrages, but you're not likely to actually do a lot of damage. It's really not good at that, so it's much better when you start flinging stakes or a wall of swords at people.

So, how about you get your buddy to stop looking how to abuse the powers and first read the books and then actually play in the spirit of the game, rather than the spirit of fucking with you.

[monteparnas]

I think the simplest limitation being ignored here on Blood Rage is that it controls which power will be activated... but not which action the target will consciously take.

This is relevant because it means you can't really force a power that requires a simple action. You can force the expenditure, you can't force the action itself, and Blood Rage doesn't give the ability to change the activation action. So while it isn't specified otherwise, I find it too contrived to apply it to anything other than Reflexive powers by RAW.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

Jesus wept. Guest

• You're not able to use Celerity to do multiple discipline activations. It needs to be a physical action. It says so in the description of Celerity.
• Blood Rage literally says "The thaumaturge may not use Blood Rage on herself to circumvent generational limits."
• Blood Cauldron says a touch is enough, since you're boiling someone's blood through sympathethic contact, I'd assume light clothing would count, but heavy would not. That's down to the ST.
• Animate the Unmoving creates magically animated items like in Fantasia or Beauty and the Beast, it doesn't reassamble or assemble them. They twist and turn and move how you tell them. You're not reassembling them, you're changing their nature to facilitate movement. If you tell them to jump into a fire or the sea or run off the scene you can get rid of weapons, but it's not going to do anything else
• Sure, you could probably use countermagic on countermagic, but at half effectiveness at best and you need to spend blood based on your generational limits. Since specifically it's not Thaumaturgy it's a separate discipline. Most likely because of people being asses about things like this.
• "Path ratings never exceed 5, though the overall Thaumaturgy score may. If a character reaches a rating of 5 in her primary path and increases her Thaumaturgy score afterward, she may allocate her “free” path dot to a different path." ... it's in the BOOK!
• The Simulacra questions is just absurd. The best you can make is a rough approximation of your human self. It might have fangs, but it's not going to have any magical or supernatural traits. It's just making a homonculus. Not a carbon copy of a character sheet.
• Movement of the mind is ALSO (are you sensing a pattern, I'm sensing a pattern) covered in the book. You do damage equal to the level of your path in Movemnt of the Mind when you use it offensivley, unless you're using specific objects that might have specific damage. However, whenever it's used on a living person, it's a resisted roll. So you might end up causing tears or minor hemorrages, but you're not likely to actually do a lot of damage. It's really not good at that, so it's much better when you start flinging stakes or a wall of swords at people.

So, how about you get your buddy to stop looking how to abuse the powers and first read the books and then actually play in the spirit of the game, rather than the spirit of fucking with you.

Some or you points ARE NOT in my v20 book, i have a translated one (french) and it is NOT tell that it's impossible to use blood rage on yourself, i just checked a moment ago i swear it's not written
For celerity it said that you cannot use mental discipline (like domination and thaumaturgy, yes, i just re-checked my bad for this one i missed the line but as some other are physical powers like the high levels of potence, quietus... there's still a problem) more than once in a turn with it. In addition the normal multiple action rule has no spécification about impossibility to split you pool between multiple powers, but i assume it has the same limitation as celerity

Yes we KNOW that it give you a "free dot" to place in a path but my translation is NOT telling us it it can be place on a new path or only those you already have, so i repeat, aside from that free point (that you cannot place if you already have your 2 or 3 path at their level 5 anyway but maybe you can keep it for later, but anyway you can only have 5 free dot this way) and the thaumaturgy level being use as a strength for very few powers, what is the point of improving thaumaturgy?

Once again maybe a translation problem but my description of power over life tell that you can create a "very impressive life simulacre" only, nothing is told about the limit of that life aside it does not have free will and cannot last for more than a week, NOTHING is written aside those 3 criteria

For movement of the mind, we KNOW that at level 4 you can inflict damage, and the book say that once something or someone is under you control you can interact with the same way if you were holding it in your real hand (a gun would still ask dex + firearms to be used according to that point). The question was can you target a specific part of a single object/person? On this one i stated that you take the whole, that's all, and if you want specific interactions you roll normally

So from what i understand, there's a HUGE translation problem with missing details and informations to begin with
Second (and the reason i'm having hard time) i'm the only one to have the book, my friend don't have it and cannot buy it. So if my book is not giving me all informations, and my friends cannot search by themself we end here, with questions everywhere about many things

@monterparnas that point is important, that means that even if 2 thaumaturge boost each other with blood rage they would have no control over what's happening, roughly speaking, it would be like forcing someone to jump or run but as he was not prepared or aware that it would happen he would fall or hit the wall

So, how about you get your buddy to stop looking how to abuse the powers and first read the books and then actually play in the spirit of the game, rather than the spirit of fucking with you.

....... look, we come on this forum to share with other and older player, get new idea, get help for our story, i never been disrepectful or aggressive with anyone and there's never hostility when i post something or answer to someone.
So if that's possible can we avoid getting that kind of exchange please? 🙁

[Asmodai]

....... look, we come on this forum to share with other and older player, get new idea, get help for our story, i never been disrepectful or aggressive with anyone and there's never hostility when i post something or answer to someone.
So if that's possible can we avoid getting that kind of exchange please? 🙁

This was in no way against you, sorry if you felt it was. I'm just tired and frustrated of a certain type of player that's in it to break things and bully storytellers into things that are against the spirit of the game. It felt to me like this player was not acting in good faith towards you or the game. If you believe they're in this with the right reasons and that they are not trying to troll you and break the game, maybe you can just fix this with a conversation with him.

Problem is that a lot of the things in the White Wolf books are written in a natural language, and it's obvious that this gets worse in a translation. There's always going to be uncertainties and there's always going to be cases where things can be interpreted in an abusive kind of way, so it's down to the ST to keep things sane.

[adambeyoncelowe]

Honestly, it does sound like your player is being "that guy".

I would just rule that even if you make someone spend their blood on a Discipline, they still get to choose who to target and how they use that Discipline. You can only force them to spend the blood to activate it.

[MyWifeIsScary]

-Using blood rage on another is what he asked.
-While there are rules against using thaumaturgy with celerity there are no such restrictions concerning using it for split actions.

Splitting Cauldron of blood is only a good idea if you're going against multiple targets, say three+ guys have grappled you or you're deep in a crowd and want to cause carnage. One success is enough to kill a mortal. If you're against a single vampire then it's better to use all your dice on one efficient attack.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

This was in no way against you, sorry if you felt it was. I'm just tired and frustrated of a certain type of player that's in it to break things and bully storytellers into things that are against the spirit of the game. It felt to me like this player was not acting in good faith towards you or the game. If you believe they're in this with the right reasons and that they are not trying to troll you and break the game, maybe you can just fix this with a conversation with him.

Problem is that a lot of the things in the White Wolf books are written in a natural language, and it's obvious that this gets worse in a translation. There's always going to be uncertainties and there's always going to be cases where things can be interpreted in an abusive kind of way, so it's down to the ST to keep things sane.

I understand that frustration, when you spend hours, days, weeks on you story to create something great and then come someone that try to break all your work, it can ruin your games.
If that type is reasonable and only try to know exactly what he can or cannot do with his ability and you can talk with him (which is our case) things can be solved, but when it's someone that want something without any care of rules, your work, what you're trying to tell with your story (which is not our case) then better get rid of him to avoid never ending problems

On blood rage, the victim should not be capable of use it normally. Some powers have fix effect like blood cauldron, but on other that need to target something or someone (movement of the mind among others) the roll is made but the exact effect are up to the st, that make it random for the pc and a good joke to make for the st

[monteparnas]

Translations are a problem in RPGs, the systems have just too many fine details that can get messed up in translation. I stopped almost completely buying translated books because of some errors that were really problematic. Seriously as an ST getting the original is good for my sanity.

Now, Blood Rage is a very complex case because it is really confusing. It says the target spends the blood in the way the caster choose, but within logic. That's really helpful...

But it doesn't dictates actions beyond the blood expenditure (it does say in English that it can't be used in the caster, twice, even) though, so this choice does have a caveat. As I see it, the target will always direct their actual actions however they want, so even if you use this to force them into activating a specific power, I see no reason at all for the user of Blood Rage to make any decision beyond "spend X Blood with power Y".

Indeed, it isn't even stated that the target doesn't notice the result, which includes which power was forced into activation. I'd personally say that the target either is instantly aware of what effect was made active by the expenditure, or in the most subtle scenario let them roll something to notice and direct the effect that is their own power anyway.

You can read into it that any action the target can't control is random, but I personally see no reason for this interpretation. If you force them into activating Cauldron of Blood, they still use their action however they want, either affecting any target they desire or even affecting no target and so spending the blood in vain, as the blood is spent into activating the Discipline, bu it get no target to work upon.

[Asmodai]

I think that's pretty obvious. It doesn't say that the activations are random or chosen by the Thaumaturge. They can spend that blood on healing, attributes or disciplines however they like, they do have to do it right here and there, which may mean that they don't get to do non-reflexive things.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

On Power over life, concretely the path of conjuration tell that you can create anything you're familiar with as long as you understand how it work. So power over life allow you to create some kind of flesh robot without will, does the V.O. book explain with more detail what you can create or why you can't create a complex being? Like create a wolf with wings or human with super strength?
The without free will and mindless part, if that simulacre must roll he only has his attribute and will act only by command of his creator is that right?

[monteparnas]

On Power over life

Power Over Life states only that you can use the Path to create (mindless) living beings and they can't be permanent.

Now, the basic Path of Conjuring does state some important aspects to consider:

A) The creation is generic, always, even if it replicates the appearance of something else it has no unique features of any kind;

B) The dice roll define quality in the direction of replication, so the best it can be is a perfect yet generic replica of something;

C) The conjurer has no power over defining traits for the creation, nor does the Path wastes time talking about effective traits.

With this I find it too contrived to conclude that this power can be used to create supernatural beings. The replica of a Vampire, Werewolf or Mage isn't necessarily a similar being, it is just a mindless person that resemble them. Even if it could be considered a member of the splat, there is no reason to think it has any of the target's powers or any power at all. The power does not talk about any of such things in any capacity. In fact, you can't even be sure a replica will have the same physical Attributes, much less anything beyond that even if it is a mundane trait.

You can create a complex being if you can imagine it and the ST approves. Within the stated rules the ST could very well say that a wolf with wings isn't a real living being and is outside the limits, although I could approve that myself. But stating traits is beyond the scope of the Path anyways, stating supernatural traits is completely unsupported by RAW in any fashion, and stating you're replicating anything supernatural has no reason to result in something with the same properties, it is just a replica, like a wax statue, even if a moving one.

It is pretty vague on the mindless part, though, so while I think you're right, I'm not sure it completely forfeits the possibility of the conjured being having some Abilities and whatnot. As the ST is the final arbiter on all its traits, I personally think that it could have some of the caster's Abilities if they fit, at lower levels, and maybe even some limited thought may be there, like a computer, it isn't clear and I see no need to make it completely off-limits as long as the creation remains incapable of autonomy and do not work as a pool of extra dice rolls for Knowledge and similar tasks. But in that it could be just assumed that it can never have a better result than the caster already had or add new insight/successes beyond what the caster already did.