Question about Thaumaturgie

[MyWifeIsScary]

"can only obey the simple instructions of their creator" is an interpretation trap. Maybe the ST will let you give them multiple "simple" instructions and thus you can train them to use a gun and clean the city before they vanish in a week. Or maybe whatever you've made can't do much more than walk. You would get more millage out of learning some crafts knowledge and actually building a robot, then maybe duplicating it with Conjuration 3 if you're poor. Or you'd get more millage buying a large dog, giving it steroids and vitae, and use that instead.

Another issue with Conjuration is that you can't create something bigger than you. Vampires have low body fat so they're at a bit of a disadvantage here.


I think the power needs a whole page to itself, not the pitiful entry it has.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

I think the power needs a whole page to itself, not the pitiful entry it has.

That's also what we think, that power is way more complex than it seems and need a lot more of informations to know what we can do in the limits of the path and that power.

Now if i resume all we know, if a thaumaturge want to summon a werewolf in crinos form:
-the creature cannot be bigger than him, so the creature will be smaller than real one

-The creature pool depend only of th ST and will not copy it's model sheet. In addition any capacity it will have will be based on the thaumaturge's as he cannot create something he doesn't understand

-it will have no memories of it's model or the thaumaturge, it's a new life living only to obey it's creator

-the creature will work and live as any other mortal creature, no rage, no gnosis, no willpower, no regeneration, no soaking for lethal and aggravated damage, no transformation ability, no gifts and no aggravated damage on it's fangs and claws

-It will obey simple instructions of it's creator and will never act by himself (except maybe to protect his life)

-if wounded he will heal like any other mortal, and as he live for only a week, will likely die before healing bad injuries

Is it a correct description of how it work?

[monteparnas]

Is it a correct description of how it work?

I think it is as good as we can get out of the little text we have. And I fully agree it needs more to it. Actually, the whole Path needs, but this power is where it shows the fullest.

There are some points where we can get some mileage depending on the ST, and we may discuss what seems reasonable for them:

- The Path talks not about how much a creature must be viable, so mini-crinos and winged wolves may be within its grasp. I think it should be possible as long as the description isn't overly complicated;

- As the dice pools and traits in general depend on the ST, the utility of this creation may vary greatly. Copying similar powers in other splats, I think using successes as the creation's highest pool could be a starting point;

- It is similarly unclear if the creature can have mental or social pools of its own. I personally think this isn't a problem as long as two clauses are kept: it can't have higher stats than the caster on those and can't repeat a mental roll the caster made to get better/new results. The creature can still do things like help in researches, scout, and other mental-but-menial tasks;

- Natural sources of Lethal Soak and Lethal damage exist, like thick hide or claws/horns/etc. Upon creating something with those with no counterpart to compare, I think turning 1 Stamina into Armor 1 and weapons that give Str as Lethal is a reasonable result without much of a fuss, and with enough successes, maybe some trade-off, etc, it wouldn't be unreasonable to have Armor 1 or Str+1 weapon, as long as extreme cases stay at Armor 2 or Str+2 at most;

- Hard to say how complex the instructions can be. As it is phrased it is hard to tell if "simple" means "the instruction must be simple" or "it simply follow instruction". Given that it is a level 5 power with a steep cost and the result will last only one week (you must drink more than 2 BP a day during the same time to recover the cost plus sustain yourself while it lasts), I think the second, more lenient ruling is fair enough, and as such you can give some fairly complex instructions and even include some abstract concepts, it still can't really act with true autonomy, which is a huge flaw anyways (it can't improvise).

So, those are my thoughts on what we could do with what we have. It's still crude and untested, so I would like opinions and thoughts.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

I think it is as good as we can get out of the little text we have. And I fully agree it needs more to it. Actually, the whole Path needs, but this power is where it shows the fullest.

There are some points where we can get some mileage depending on the ST, and we may discuss what seems reasonable for them:

- The Path talks not about how much a creature must be viable, so mini-crinos and winged wolves may be within its grasp. I think it should be possible as long as the description isn't overly complicated;

- As the dice pools and traits in general depend on the ST, the utility of this creation may vary greatly. Copying similar powers in other splats, I think using successes as the creation's highest pool could be a starting point;

- It is similarly unclear if the creature can have mental or social pools of its own. I personally think this isn't a problem as long as two clauses are kept: it can't have higher stats than the caster on those and can't repeat a mental roll the caster made to get better/new results. The creature can still do things like help in researches, scout, and other mental-but-menial tasks;

- Natural sources of Lethal Soak and Lethal damage exist, like thick hide or claws/horns/etc. Upon creating something with those with no counterpart to compare, I think turning 1 Stamina into Armor 1 and weapons that give Str as Lethal is a reasonable result without much of a fuss, and with enough successes, maybe some trade-off, etc, it wouldn't be unreasonable to have Armor 1 or Str+1 weapon, as long as extreme cases stay at Armor 2 or Str+2 at most;

- Hard to say how complex the instructions can be. As it is phrased it is hard to tell if "simple" means "the instruction must be simple" or "it simply follow instruction". Given that it is a level 5 power with a steep cost and the result will last only one week (you must drink more than 2 BP a day during the same time to recover the cost plus sustain yourself while it lasts), I think the second, more lenient ruling is fair enough, and as such you can give some fairly complex instructions and even include some abstract concepts, it still can't really act with true autonomy, which is a huge flaw anyways (it can't improvise).

So, those are my thoughts on what we could do with what we have. It's still crude and untested, so I would like opinions and thoughts.

With that and the limitations above we have enough informations to cover most usage of this gift. Unfortunatly some detail will always lack, you can create a smartphone so if you have enough dot in technology and computer are you able to create one with permanent access to internet, call and message? hacking? Are you limited to what's already exist? After all, character's work can be based on his imagination. according to path description.

Actually the ST have to define precisely the limits of this power in accordance of his needs, but i believe this thread will certainly aid some to define them

[Embustero]

Going back to the Blood Rage question. I'd say the power only allows the use of blood for instinctual disciplines. By that, I mean disciplines that don't require an action to activate. Thaumaturgy is definitely out of the question as it is a discipline that requires the invocation of the power by the vampire FIRST. Since the thaumaturge can't force the victim to take that action it wouldn't work

[Cain Loup-Noir]

New questions:
Movement of the mind tell that if you target someone you roll willpower against him to control him without saying how much. Is he completely unable to move as long as he lose the contested roll and only the thaumaturge can control his movement?

If you target the object carried by someone is there a contested roll? Because if he has too much willpower and you can take control of his clothes...

The path say you control object and people like you were holding them in your hand, do you still roll dex + melee fight with a sword controlled with this path?

[MyWifeIsScary]

Objects under the character’s control may be manipulated as if she held them — they may be lifted, spun, juggled, or even “thrown,

Could a person still move if you held them? Absolutely. It would be more difficult, but they can do it. If you held them up in the air by the throat, they could still try to reach for the gun at their belt and shoot at you, or something to that effect.



If this power is used to manipulate a living being, the subject may attempt to resist.

I would say grabbing someone's coattails or the sword clenched in their hand would count for this. But grabbing the keys from someone's pocket in order to steal them? That'd be fine.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

If you held them up in the air by the throat, they could still try to reach for the gun at their belt and shoot at you, or something to that effect.

Wait you can target specific limb of your target? Or you mean control him entirely and then use dex + brawl to strangle them?

[MyWifeIsScary]

Wait you can target specific limb of your target? Or you mean control him entirely and then use dex + brawl to strangle them?

If you could, I don't think you'd need to roll, you'd just strangle them. At levels 4/5 you could probably just do -power level- damage to their neck. I mean at that level you can fling them head-first into concrete so a throat crush isn't stretching things.

At level 3, you can't do damage. You can lift 100kgs, but you can't do direct damage. I guess the control isn't fine enough for you to really pinpoint the neck. Asphyxiation at level 3... maybe? It's a slow way to kill people, but at this level you can also just lift people up enough and have them fall to their death. For a blood point or two, it's not exactly an efficient method.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

That kind of attack would do bashing damage unless throwing them on something hard enough. Strangle human with lethal damage seems a little to powerfull, except if you use it to broke their neck. But in that case if the pc tell "i use the 4th level to control him and i'll try to rip his heart out" then it become a very dangerous power for humans.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I don't think so at all. Flashy powers like Force-Choke or the ability to Dominate people to die and have their heart stop are extremely flashy ways of displaying power but by the time you get to them you probably already have a great many means to achieve better results for less resources. A gun doesn't cost XP, and at this point you can drop or throw bricks with great lethality or kill a man with a handwave. Telekenetic kills just look impressive, they're usually not worth the blood.

3rd level: no direct damage, you can probably suffocate, you can probably drop them from a height.
4th level: Do bashing damage, but since you're targeting the neck and even the most extreme neck would at most have three health levels, it'll leap around and do lethal after say, 2 levels of bashing.
5th: might as well do lethal. RAW there's nothing to say that, but if you can move around 500 kilos that easily you could probably crush a skull.

[Cain Loup-Noir]

You're right level 4 and 5 should be able do to bashing and lethal, other vampires and supernatural creatures can soak them anyway.

How would you resolve take off the gun of your target's hand? A contested roll of thaumaturgy level vs strength of the target may do the job, no? Same to prevent you target from moving while under your control
Also targeting head, heart or neck would certainly deserve damage bonus even without using any powers, those are vital part after all and injure them cause much more serious injuries than a leg or the arm (+3 lethal damage maybe)