Leaving the Sabbat

[Microcuchon]

How possible is to leave the Sabbat? According to V20 manual, Vinculi don't fade with time. But in canon we have a character (Giangaleazzo) who has not only done it, but killed all the Sabbat members in his city. Not to mention the whole V5 Lasombra mass defection.
Has any of you ST's allowed a PC or NPC to leave the Sabbat and under what circumstances?

[Ragged Robin]

Well the lasombra defection has enough plot holes to march a vozhd through so isnt a great example. I wouldn't let a player leave a Sabbat in sabbat game unless its the end of either pc or chronicle but if you wanted to play ex Sabbat that's fine, the easiest way is if your major vinculi links are mostly dead or/and you were a nobody, which is doable with sect casualty and embrace rates.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Vinculi not fading with time is a weird idea. Especially since viniculums are practiced fairly regularly. If they didn't fade with time, regular viniculums are an unnecessary tedium (they do help people average out to 5/6 ratings which is a positive, but you could just do a bunch of viniculums in one night to get them out of the way if that's the result you want)

The V5 Lasombra defection... well, like many things V5, things will go smoother if we don't take it into account. I'll start frothing at the mouth if anyone tries to explain it.


As a neonate? Distance. Just disappear one night when they're not expecting it. another method could be to get your pack on a far flung mission and just suggest that you don't go back. Elders of course have their own methods to escape the viniculum: rules are for those too weak to break them.

[Microcuchon]

Well the lasombra defection has enough plot holes to march a vozhd through so isnt a great example. I wouldn't let a player leave a Sabbat in sabbat game unless its the end of either pc or chronicle but if you wanted to play ex Sabbat that's fine, the easiest way is if your major vinculi links are mostly dead or/and you were a nobody, which is doable with sect casualty and embrace rates.

Actually, I am ST a Camarilla game. The PC's have recently captured a Sabbat member and may capture more in the future, as they are trying to stop a siege.
As part of the game themes, we are exploring the possibility of helping some of these prisoners defect.

[Microcuchon]

Vinculi not fading with time is a weird idea. Especially since viniculums are practiced fairly regularly. If they didn't fade with time, regular viniculums are an unnecessary tedium (they do help people average out to 5/6 ratings which is a positive, but you could just do a bunch of viniculums in one night to get them out of the way if that's the result you want)

The V5 Lasombra defection... well, like many things V5, things will go smoother if we don't take it into account. I'll start frothing at the mouth if anyone tries to explain it.


As a neonate? Distance. Just disappear one night when they're not expecting it. another method could be to get your pack on a far flung mission and just suggest that you don't go back. Elders of course have their own methods to escape the viniculum: rules are for those too weak to break them.

That's exactly what I am thinking. Small rating Vinculi are probably easy to shake off

[CajunKhan]

I don't use that idea that vinculi never fading. I consider it silly. Vinculli is blood-bond-lite, not super-blood-bond. It smooths over minor conflicts, but isn't strong enough to prevent massive conflicts from turning into monomacy or even civil wars.

[Microcuchon]

I don't use that idea that vinculi never fading. I consider it silly. Vinculli is blood-bond-lite, not super-blood-bond. It smooths over minor conflicts, but isn't strong enough to prevent massive conflicts from turning into monomacy or even civil wars.

That was my original idea and I am happy to see that most people agree.
Now, a couple more specific questions about Vinculi fading
Should higher ratings fade more quickly or more slowly (relatively) to lower ones?
And, at what point are you vulnerable to a Blood Bond? When all ratings are at 0?

[MrNatas]

I don't use that idea that vinculi never fading. I consider it silly. Vinculli is blood-bond-lite, not super-blood-bond. It smooths over minor conflicts, but isn't strong enough to prevent massive conflicts from turning into monomacy or even civil wars.

I also agree with this. At my table I have the Vinculum not able to go down if you roll lower than your rating but, have it like a normal blood bond fad if you don't maintain it. This makes things like temporary packs make sense to me and why NPC sabbat characters don't have their own sheet just for all the people they might have had a Vinculum with.

[Ragged Robin]

Actually, I am ST a Camarilla game. The PC's have recently captured a Sabbat member and may capture more in the future, as they are trying to stop a siege.
As part of the game themes, we are exploring the possibility of helping some of these prisoners defect.

Becomes a little trickier in that case, it isn't just a case of viniculum but also attitudes. The average Sabbat is nuts and unlikely to break, especially if they're on a path.

[Lysander]

How possible is to leave the Sabbat? According to V20 manual, Vinculi don't fade with time. But in canon we have a character (Giangaleazzo) who has not only done it, but killed all the Sabbat members in his city. Not to mention the whole V5 Lasombra mass defection.
Has any of you ST's allowed a PC or NPC to leave the Sabbat and under what circumstances?

Does your ST take lots of creative liberties with the metaplot. If so you can ignore the rules of the Vinculi and view it as a light blood bond that will wither over time.

[Microcuchon]

Becomes a little trickier in that case, it isn't just a case of viniculum but also attitudes. The average Sabbat is nuts and unlikely to break, especially if they're on a path.

I know. But there are exceptions. And certain paths would not be completely out of place in the Camarilla.

[Lysander]

I could see the Path Of Power & Inner Voice as well Honorable Accord being attractive to many of the elders in the Camarilla and would be somewhat welcoming to some ex sabbat.

[MrNatas]

I have several Honorable Accord Tremere in my head cannon. The Accord they follow is of course the Tremere Code.

[Ragged Robin]

People latch on to honerable accord because 'nice' (lol) but Personally I've always seen cathari as a better fit for the ivory tower, all that decadence and all. Plus the wicked betrayal probably has more appeal to them.

[Black Fox]

I agree with others on this thread that the Vinculum should fade over time. It should also be subjected to the same degrading that can occur with the Blood Bond too because of ill treatment, or because of competing feelings generated by other things. If you love your sire because of the Blood Bond, and you love some other person for real, and the two go into opposition; then that may not change you feel towards each one, but it doesn't mean that a vampire can't choose to side with the other party. These kind of conflicts with the Blood Bond are best roleplayed out, not determined by dice rolls.

If the Blood Bond creates an artificial "love" that can be degraded because of treatment, conflicts, time, and distance, than the artificial "solidarity" created by the Vinculum should do the same. Just use the guidelines for that happening in Blood Bonds as an approximation of how it can happen to the Vinculum.

And don't forget that low levels of Vinculum ratings indicate very little ties to that specific vampire. Your first four or five levels can probably be ignored and move against that individual, although you might feel guilty about it afterwards.

As mentioned, the Vinculum hasn't prevented three civil wars (or four depending on edition), monomacy, etc. Clearly Sabbat routinely kill other Sabbat with whom they have some measure of Vinculum.

= = = =
I will also state that in the original Players Guide to the Sabbat, it mentions "Some Sabbat believe it is possible to break the bonds of the Vinculum. Doing so removes all the bonds the vampire has to all other vampires, not just select ones. While it is unknown how the Vinculum is broken, supposedly it has been done by a number of Sabbat, particularly Tremere and Nosferatu antitribu." This has never been explored in the setting, and I imagine this statement was included merely as a means to allow an ST to include such a thing in their own chronicle if they saw a use for it. I don't think I'd want an anti-Vaulderie in the setting that obliterates Vinculum outright, but some plot device or general mechanic that can sometimes work or is difficult to do could be something I'd be willing to allow. I'd just need to give a lot of thought as to how to handle it as an ST so it doesn't break the setting outright.

In that same sourcebook there was a Flaw called Pack Enemy, where a character (presumably NPC) in your own pack wants you destroyed. In the description it states "The Vinculum scores between you and your enemy are automatically zero, and will never increase no matter how many times you partake of the Vaulderie together." So again, obviously the Vinculum is not meant to last forever or even to always work. There have always been exceptions to the normal rules.

= = = =
I think the bigger problem with a Sabbat defector is less that the Vinculum can be broken/eroded for an individual or even an isolated pack that grown disillusioned from the Sabbat (although I think the idea of mass defections like in V5 is ridiculous), it is how much can you actually trust a defector? How do you know he is not lying? Or that he isn't a deep cover agent because of some Discipline use that he may not even know about himself (like in the movie Total Recall)? What is their motivation for defecting? How sincere or believable is it? Why risk bringing in an enemy agent when you can just as easily destroy that enemy and create a brand new vampire whose loyalties you can control initially?

These questions might already be answered in your chronicle, but I do think it is important to bring up as an obstacle as to why the opposing side will accept a defector.